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Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 311
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:09 pm: | 
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I have e-mailed and spoken to so many writers who want to make it big in the publishing industry only to receive rejection letters, give up, or use self-publishing or subsidy-publishing as a last resort. Most of the writers I've spoken with have had no formal training in writing such as undergraduate or graduate studies, noncredit courses in writing, workshop training, or even reading the occasional magazine for writers. Ask writers trying to make it in the industry (mostly novelists) about their training and they tend to get offensive, citing all well-known authors who had no formal training. Perhaps that's the appeal of becoming an author. Many writers read a good book and think I can do that, and a new writer is born. Maybe new writers believe it is the road to instant fame and fortune without having to do anything difficult to achieve it.
When I point the finger, I point in inward as well. My college education afforded me the opportunity to take a few courses in writing and English while obtaining a degree in marketing. I read six to eight books per month, not just for entertainment but to learn from great writers. I also subscribe to The Writer for technical instruction. I've considered the MFA (versus the MBA which would probably help me earn more money) but wonder if coursework in learning about classic literature will even help me become a better writer.
So my questions to you are:
What, if any, training should writers attain?
If you're a writer, what training have you received to help you become a better writer? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9177
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 05:10 pm: |
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IMO, Emanuel, there are people in this world, in all fields of endeavor who have been blessed with a gift of talent. This talent is innate and natural and needs only to be channeled and honed. Athletes, musicians, painters, actors, dancers, business men, physicians, teachers, scientists - writers, the list goes on and on. These "genuises" are the cream of the crop in the arts and sciences. Then, there are others who learn their craft through dedication, hard work and intelligence and are able to achieve a degree of adequacy. As far as writing goes, I personally think anybody can benefit from a creative writing course in order to acquire the skills which will help refine raw talent. Not taking such a class is something I regret because in my novel-writing I would just kinda make up a story as I went along. I was not then, and am not now, disciplined enough to focus on the structure of a plot and a development of characters. Or have I gotten up to speed yet, probably because I've found a niche away from the field of novel writing. And, I think that certainly anyone who reviews books could benefit from a course in literature, so as to know better what to look for in a work. I would also agree that a lot can be learned about writing from reading books by good writers |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4520
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 05:12 pm: |
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Emanuel:
If you're a writer, what training have you received to help you become a better writer?
_________________
"The Curtis Mayfield School of Listening"
Emanuel,
Believe it or not, I think my ability and my understanding of "rearranging words" to say something in a narrative form came from listening to very "literary-based" music.
Do you remember a song by CHICAGO called "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?"....well the singer's question (a poetic/philisophical one) and the literary narrative of the singing (the lyric structure) in that song so spoke to me as a child/teen who was in psychiatric care and learning English all in one breath...that I became emotionally attached to that song to the point of creating daydreams and head images surrounding that one song.
I mean, that one song embodied "art" for me and became a lifeline to the reality that others "in the world" were experiencing what I was experiencing---by the time I heard the song, mind you, it was an "oldie but goodie", not new--but to me, it was just everything.
That song also made me feel that if I didn't find a way to create other art--I would literally die.
Art is about "Isolation", "Expression", "Fellowship", "Truth", "Clarity", "Critical Thinking", "Dreams"--and when you find a way to render it with "sincerity", other people find it and internalize it as a kind of offering. Art can fill up your body to the point where there's no room inside for your real life.
If you've had that feeling happen to you, burden you--then you are an artist.
After being possessed by the Chicago song...I discovered that my adoptive Black American father had early 1970's Curtis Mayfield and 1960's Dionne Warwick albums and I stole them from him (though he was long done with them and didn't mind).
It was listening to the pain and truthfulness in Curtis Mayfield and being swept away by the emotionally complex song arrangements of Bacharach/David (Dionne Warwick's producers) that sealed the LITERARY EXPRESSION inside me.
At that same time....an old white Psychiatrist at John Hopkins, I believe, turned me on to "SILENT MOVIES"---because with "silent" films, you don't have to know any language at all!!!!
You just watch the story and the unfolding pictures...the images...they tell the story.
I call it "languid simplicity".
I didn't have any friends and I didn't fit in, so the silent films became my friends.
I could escape through epics like "WINGS" and laugh with Betty Boop and the Psychiatrists convinced me that my "bone structure" was similar to screen goddesses like Greta Garbo and Lillian Gish---silent films and the fact that nobody else in S.E. D.C. watched them, introduced the idea for me that being "different" was equal to being "beautiful"---it was also through Greta Garbo movies that I learned to appreciate and accept being so much TALLER than the other kids on the block (which for most Sudanese in America is a major trauma).
I found serenity in the dark watching silent movies. The silent films are...intensely poetic and they teach you "metaphor"....they teach you how to appreciate and submerse yourself in the beauty of silence.
All THAT...came before BOOKS with me.
Then At 14, I read my first novel---"Valley of the Dolls" by Jaqueline Sussann, a book that is considered pure escapist "trash", but also a book that was so HONEST and so compelling, I couldn't stop reading it over and over again. It got me addicted to reading. Then I read Toni Morrison's "Bluest Eye", and as I've stated in many interviews.....I feel that reading "Bluest Eye" was the first time that I had heard anybody 'tell the truth' in America.
That book changed my life. I became enthralled with Richard Wright via "Black Boy" (to me...every black child in America should be required to read two books--"Black Boy" and "The Bluest Eye"--after reading those, they can't go wrong in life.)
I read Mari Evans, Sylvia Plath, Sherwood Anderson, Ralph Ellison and I even found profoundly gifted African writers--Mariama Ba, Buchi Emecheta, Achebe and Nawal El Sadaawi.
I began to write with all those ingredients....
Curtis Mayfield
Images of Silent Movies
The structuring of Richard Wright/Toni Morrison
The bleakness of Sylvia Plath
The womanliness of Mariama Ba
And...I honored my own will
You've read and loved two of my books, Emanuel--but be aware--that I have no formal education whatsoever.
The Public Library, after I learned English, was essentially where I educated myself---and by sleeping with very brilliant men.
Poor women with no education should realize that it's as easy to be "fukked" by "smart" men as it is by dumb ones. I always went to bed with brilliant men who could teach me something.
MY ADVICE TO ANY WRITER IS THIS:
(1) When telling a story, you should always be 'getting to the good part'.
(2) You must have 'sincerity' at the core of anything you create or act as conduit for---always remind yourself that it's the combination of truth and sincerity that makes certain hit records live on as "classics". THINK: "Betcha My Golly Wow"----that title alone is SINCERITY.
(3) Either you have something to say...or you want to entertain people and relieve them of their realities...or both.
(4) I don't know how hard it is for others, but one of my greatest strengths....is that I'm not a pretentious person. That is extremely helpful when dealing with profound material or attempting to relate painful stories. The lack of pretention. Be...and be not afraid.
(5) Use your life to write from...as Alice Walker so brilliantly showed in her short story "Everyday Use".....all that you are, all that you've seen, all that you've made it through and all that you've dreamed...this is to be used and passed on, and that's what art is for, to share.
If you're young and haven't lived yet--then learn the meaning of the word "EMPATHIZE" and get into the bowels of it! Everyone has a story to tell...if they can find the courage and the patience.
Others just get up and sing the shit.
Me, Kola. I can't sing.
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 483
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 10:11 am: |
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I agree with Cynique that some are born with a natural talent for writing. I agree with Kola that even if you're one of the fortunate few born with a writing gift, you should take in all you can of various art forms - that WILL improve your writing. In addition, I feel that some training is necessary to learn the rudiments of writing.
That training needn't come in the form of formal studies e.g., workshops, writing conferences, or a Fine Arts degree. But informal instruction such as reading the classics, studying how "the masters" do it, learning what goes into writing a fight scene, a sex scene; learning about dialog tags, show vs. tell, saidisms, pace, passive voice, active voice, plot devices, plot and character development, themes, subplots, red herrings, foreshadowing, punctuation and so forth.
Even with natural ability and studying various art forms, you'll still need to know the fundamentals and the variety of techniques and methods used to bring your writing to life; however, a formal literary education, imo, is unnecessary to become a good, even great, writer. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4833
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 10:38 am: |
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What, if any, training should writers attain?
If you're a writer, what training have you received to help you become a better writer?
(Whether I am a writer will be judged by the public and history.
When I decided to become one, since I am a product of higher education, I sought some sort of instruction and training. I got college textbooks on the subject. Also textbooks on explaining literature.
I read and studied the masters. I attended workshops and joined writers groups. I shared my writings with others who critqued them.
This satisfied my cryptofacist need for discipline and regimentation.
I believe a person could become a great writer without getting any sort of formal training--I do not share the current conceit of MFA programs that they can turn out writers like sausage.
I do not believe any one could be any kind of writer without reading a lot, however. |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4531
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 12:42 pm: |
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Chris Hayden,
Let me just say that you are a "writer". You were born with the sixth sense--meaning--you're a critical observer and a critical thinker and you could have been a jazz instrumentalist, a lyricist/poet, a preacher, a sign maker, a filmmaker or a novelist.
All of those artists are "storytellers".
You're very witty and clever, but also, your writing has subtle insight into human mechanations (sp?). Even when writing "fantasy" material, your narrative lacks pretention and your characters ring true.
Also, I love you.
Kola
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4532
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 12:51 pm: |
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All writing is rooted in "oral traditions" be they Greek, Africoid, Indian, Latin, Slavik, Bolshevik or Asian.
This is why it doesn't take formal "training" to be a writer....and it's also why several art forms are all connected...for instance, there's no denying that our best musicians are poets.
But Chris is 100% right when he says that a good writer cannot become one without first being a good reader.
Personally, if I had not gotten wrapped up as a very young teen in Richard Wright, Morrison and Sylvia Plath---I believe I would have been a "commercial fiction" writer, but because I consumed so much literary fiction so young, I found it hard to write pop books and easy to write probative narrative.
It was because I had read Morrison that I simply couldn't write about something from the surface.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9183
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 02:29 pm: |
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LOL. Believe it or not I also think that chrishayden has excellent writing skills. I obviously have a problem with his partisan views because I usually don't agree with his politics. He is a passionate writer but here again, what he is passionate about is very selective. The same goes for kola boof. Naturally, I think that nothing either of them asserts is irrefutable. Their truth is simply their perception. |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 316
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 10:55 pm: |
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So what do you say to the newfound author (mostly self-published and subsidy-published) whose book has problems such as plot issues, poor character development, and the most basic grammar errors? For instance, so many books I've reviewed have problems whose resolutions are taught as early as sixth grade. Some of those problems include homonym issues (i.e. too, two, to or their, there, and they're), spelling issues (i.e. definately instead of definitely), a misuse of words (i.e. every since instead of ever since), and a problem with tense (i.e. Then he open his hand.). Most of these problems could be addressed by using the services of a professional editor but a lot of the problems run deeper. Do you tell these writers to seek training? Maybe a writers' workshop or a creative writing course at the local community college? |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4547
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 11:18 pm: |
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From what you described, Emanuel, they need ENGLISH and SPELLING courses.....
Creative Writing courses are not supposed to be for GRAMMAR---and if you find one that is---then it's not a good, professional course. It's a waste of money.
Writer's Workshops are supposed to provide "think tank" environments and help writers to have fellowship and HONE their differing skills by learning from each other.
Creative Writing is (should) really be about critiquing and finding ones voice and understanding the structure of narrative and how to tell a story.
Even the best writers make some grammatical errors and in a good professional Creative Writing Class, those errors are blue penciled and the instructor and other writers completely devote themselves and their time to literary device and literary mechanics.
If you have to stop and teach one student not to write "too" for "two" and other grammar problems more than once in 10 pages, then the whole class is a waste of time.
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Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2134
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 01:44 pm: |
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I agree. These are not creative writing issues, but literacy issues. At one time, such writers would have been valuable as oral storytellers--and then such errors would not matter. It'd be great if folks with vivid stories to tell could team up with folks with impeccable technical skills. But I know this rarely happens outside of celebs. There is already too little money to go around in this business than to expect two folks now to be paid for the same one novel. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1689
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 01:56 pm: |
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Also, all the courses in the world can't stop common mistakes like omitting words or substituting one homonym for another.(homonyms sound the same but are spelled differently, right?) Like their/there two/too your/you're for example. Sometimes, the mind plays tricks on you and causes the eye to see the common word that is generally used. The only way to correct this type of error is to proof your work! I find that proofing a hard copy of the work is best, because proofing on a computer, your mind will sometimes play the same tricks and insert words that are missing, among other things and your eyes can easily "glide" over errors. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9202
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 03:49 pm: |
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Get reel, Emmanuel. Tell those righters who submitt too you mannuscripts like what you give a exsample to us from, to keep there telemarketing jobs. Ya no wat I'm sayin? |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 320
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 08:58 pm: |
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LOL! Yup Cynique. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 09:38 pm: |
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Emanuel,
Have you queried any agents yet? How about publishing houses? Have you sent any of your mss to them?
Also, I heard that if you self publish a title and don't sell at least 5000 copies that no agent or publisher will touch that manuscript. have you heard this? |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 321
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 10:44 am: |
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Are you referring to selling the rights to the self-published title or selling subsequent manuscripts? I have heard that of selling the rights to the self-published title. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1693
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:18 am: |
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No, there are all kinds of rights to be sold with a manuscript, so I was referring to selling a previously self published novel. Do you have to sell 5000 copies of that before a commercial publisher will consider buying it?
and also, I was just wondering if you have gotten around to querying an agent or publishing house? |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 322
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 12:57 pm: |
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Oh, okay. I don't personally have a completed manuscript to shop to agents or publishing houses at this time. Maybe next year. |
Libralind2
Veteran Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 879
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 09:00 pm: |
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Emanuel..dont you have a book in bookstores ?
LiLi |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 323
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:51 am: |
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Yup. |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 379
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 09:54 pm: |
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There's an article in the November, 2007 issue of The Writer that asks five authors about the necessity of getting an MFA. The main pros I got from reading the article is 1. the MFA is needed if you plan on teaching, 2. the contacts you make during obtaining the MFA will help you in becoming a published writer.
Thoughts? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10257
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:41 pm: |
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Interesting. I don't think its unreasonable to expect a person who wants to teach writing to have good credentials. And who can have a problem with improving one chances of getting published? But - you know what they say, "those who can, - do; and those can't, - teach". And it would be doubly devasting for a person with a MFA to have a manuscript rejected. Also, some people are natural-born teachers, and others are natural-born writers, so a lot depends on - the breaks... |
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