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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 674
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 07:44 pm: | 
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Author Martha Southgate (http://authors.aalbc.com/martha_southgate.htm) muses about the state of African American Fiction
“I am a 46-year-old writer of “literary” fiction. I’ve had three novels published — the first for young people, the last two for adults. All have won minor prizes, been respectfully reviewed and sold modestly. I’ve been awarded a few fairly competitive fellowships and grants. The business is full of fiction writers like me. With one difference: I’m black, born and raised in the United States. At the parties and conferences I attend, and in the book reviews I read, I rarely encounter other African-American “literary” writers, particularly in my age bracket. There just don’t seem to be that many of us out there, and that’s something I’ve come to wonder about a great deal. And so I got on the phone with some editors and African-American writers to talk about it.”
Read the rest of this article at: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/books/review/Southgate-t.html
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 675
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 08:32 pm: |
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This article was brought to my attention by author Eisa Ulen (www.EisaUlen.com/blog).
Adero, who I know and respect, in the article bemoans; “ Literary African-American writers have difficulty getting publicity. The retailers then don’t order great quantities of the books. Readers don’t know what books are available and therefore don’t ask for them. It’s a vicious cycle.”
I agree with Adero, in fact authors, unless they are a celebrities, have difficulty gaining publicity. However, in my mind, the solution is simple: If you want to bring attention to your novel, focus more on effective advertising instead of trying to acquire "free" publicity.
It is A LOT harder to acquire meaningful and sustained publicity for a book, than it is to purchase advertising. I’m not saying (yet) that a publicist is not needed, but after tons of conversations with authors; the overwhelming majority relate that they, themselves, have been more effective at securing mentions in the media than their publicists. I know part of the problem is the authors expectations; but rarely do I hear about an author singing the praises of a publicist.
This the way I discover good books, in rank order:
1 - Reviewer raves about a book
2 - Someone, whose opinion I respect, recommends the book (really the same as #1)
3 - Book makes a bestseller’s list (not always reliable, but it is better than “randomly” selecting from everything that is available)
4 - I discover the book on my own (rarely)
Relatively unknown literary authors should considering advertising their own books, and engaging in a little self promotion if order to increase sales. Now Martha’s book The Fall of Rome (reviewed by Thumper here: http://aalbc.com/reviews/the_fall_of_rome.htm) could sell even more copies today, five years after publication, if more people knew about it. It is an excellent book.
Assuming people like author’s work, once the reputation builds, the only advertising they need is to let reader know the next book is out. Everyone else has to build a reputation buy writing a good book and be willing to spend a little money and energy to let people know you are out there.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 09:04 pm: |
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Troy,
What you posted is so true! Especially what you said about authors purchasing thier own advertising. But I think this mindset should be adopted by all authors across the board, no matter what genre they write, and no matter if it's literary fiction, or non fiction, etc. Thanks for the post! |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 303
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 11:06 pm: |
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Thanks for posting the NY Times article. The thing that resonates in my mind is that book writing is a business. Like the one person said, 'If you don't sell more than 3,000 books and have three novels released, bookstores are not going to order your book.' It's all about what sells. Authors have a choice. They can write what sells and hopefully make a living from it without selling their souls or they can write what they love regardless of the market but risk going broke, regardless of the literary awards.
In the self-publishing world where I currently dwell, selling 3,000 books is to be celebrated, which is why so many authors mistakenly self-publish without even trying to get published traditionally. Of course we know the average self-published book doesn't sell more than 200 copies. (Yes, there are exceptions.)
I have spoken to so many authors who are disappointed when I tell them the stuff you do for free on the Internet will not get you a lot of sales. E-mails are overabundant and get stopped by Spam filters before most of them are read. Everybody's got something to sell on MySpace, so the message gets ignored. Even posting on messageboards like this one get flooded with authors posting their commercials never to be heard from again. New traditionally-published authors and self-published authors MUST spend money on advertising or do some helluva direct selling (a.k.a. hustlin') if they want to make a dent in sales. The marketplace is getting even more flooded due to self-publishing and subsidy publishing, which is why they say Authorgeddon is approaching where there will be one book for every living person.
Like you Troy, the rare times I buy books is when it's from one of my favorite authors, the book appears on a bestseller list and intrigued me, or I want to support a friend. Otherwise, I request a review copy and review it for the Midwest Book Review. |
Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 188
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 12:38 am: |
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Kola asked me to post this.
I was chatting with Kola Boof about this article and she was saying how another big problem is the fact that there's also an over-saturation of "poorly written" or "dull" literary works by Black authors who are products of academia and come from middle class backgrounds, thereby turning off traditional black readers who have come to expect something as powerful and confrontational as Gloria Naylor/James Baldwin whenever they pick up a literary novel.
Kola says people like Stephen Carter and Martha Southgate are "technically good"--but their books don't have the bite of a Walter Mosley or a Pearl Cleage.
Kola says that it takes an interesting author to write an interesting book.
She says, quote:
"Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston, Richard Wright and James Baldwin were not products of academia, but were ANGRY, PASSIONATE, HUNGRY people who came directly from the bowels of black experience--Langston Hughes had been a sailor on a ship, Maya Angelou started as a teenaged single mother, stripper, pimp and world traveler. They weren't boring ass academics who put technique and 'The New Yorker' in front of what was eating them inside--the thing that connects them to 'the people'.
Kola pointed out that very few black literary writers of today tackle the controversial social issues that made "Invisible Man" or any of Toni Morrison's books so engrossing and successful.
According to Kola, the books today don't have legs (long term growth) because they don't resonate with any specific group or general angst amongst black people.
One thing I can say about the sales of Kola's books at Door of Kush that gives credence to her claims is that though they aren't widely sold by "African-American" vendors (Hueman and Eso Won, for instance, don't carry Kola Boof)....the sales of her books double each year because of this illusion people have that Kola's books are "taboo/explosive, harddcore/hard to locate/provocative"...and we've built our company off that one author through book club word of mouth, constant internet "friction", mass media and the strength of her core audience--black women--to the point where we can now sell 15,000 copies of a new Boof release without a single bookstore.
Kola has also developed "specialty" markets for her books.
For instance, a flood of "White Daytime Soap Opera" viewers got deeply into Kola's books after the huge scandal where she was fired from "Days of Our Lives"---that one soap opera scandal got FULL PAGE coverage in "TV GUIDE", "The N.Y. Post", "Soap Opera Central" and created a whole new audience of soap opera fan clubs who wanted to read her books.
Then black women who wear their hair "natural" and want to read about "natural-haired" heroines are a huge specialty group who have now become trained to buy Kola's books because they know she's about the only black author whose leading ladies will sport natural hair, have beautiful descriptions of "black" facial features (there are NO "green or gray-eyed" black heroines in Kola's novels) and or have a "theme" about natural hair and her books are flooded with depictions of handsome black men and gorgeous women. Most black authors have not discovered what a huge audience there is for depictions of beautiful "black" black characters.
With the upcoming release of Kola's first street lit pop novel "Virgins In the Beehive"--we were able to get Kanye West to blurb the book and there's a tie-in with Buffie the Body, so Kola, who is a definite literary writer, is now going to EXPAND HER AUDIENCE yet again by getting "street lit" readers to enter the world and themes of Kola Boof through a very original story about a hip hop singing group.
Kola demanded that this book come out in "paperback" (her books always come in hardcover first, because we sell so many), but Kola believes that young inner-city black girls who read "Virgins In the Beehive" will be able to graduate to the more difficult and demanding "Flesh and the Devil" by getting used to her writing style via that hip hop novel.
Her autobiography is already a cult favorite with young inner city black women, which is what made her write "Virgins".
Kola's story collection "Long Train to the Redeeming Sin" is a HUGE HIT in Sweden and Belgium----a reminder that black authors shouldn't give up on cultivating a European audience.
In a nutshell, I think that black literary writers need to do as Troy Johnson said and invest in advertising, but I also think that they have to come up with creative and "strategic" methods of reaching specific audiences (Toni Morrison did it bit by bit, catering to black women's issues that weren't being addressed anywhere else)....and lastly, as Kola said....interesting people write interesting books.
Editors at the major houses, however, are more likely to sign a boring "academic" critic's darling who won't sell than the more colorful and controversial people like Kola.
Kola says: "They seem to forget that it was always the larger than life, controversial Black writers like communist Richard Wright, nutjob Zora Hurston and flaming homosexual James Baldwin who moved books and attracted press--because their work was raw and painfully honest. Black editors have lost touch with the legacy of black literary fiction in this country by constantly publishing what's already been published--over and over."
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 677
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 11:46 am: |
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Nafisa_goma, there is a lot going on in this this post. It is difficult to interpret because some of the words are subjective and others need to be clarified, but I’ll address what I believe is the crux of the sentiment (the quote below):
quote: “…over-saturation of "poorly written" or "dull" literary works by Black authors who are products of academia and come from middle class backgrounds, thereby turning off traditional black readers who have come to expect something as powerful and confrontational as Gloria Naylor/James Baldwin…”
I’m not sure what is meant by “poorly written”, presumably an academic published by a major house will not produce a “poorly written” book. I would expect at least "technically good". Perhaps if you (I mean Kola) offered an examples of these “poorly written” books I would have a beeter understanding of what is meant.
The implication from the above quote is that writers from “middle class backgrounds” are turning off the “traditional reader”. I’m not sure what this means, but one has to assume middle class folks ARE the core of the “traditional readers”.
Kola also seems to be equate “Dull” with “Literary”. We should be clear here “dull” is in the eye of the beholder and “dull” books can be found in all genres.
Bottom line, and it looks like we agree here, is that there are good books (across all genres that could benefit from advertising dollars and some creative promotion.
I also take issue with this:
quote: “…boring "academic" critic's darling who won't sell than the more colorful and controversial…
Someone who is not “colorful and controversial people” can write a good book. Besides, most readers will never meet the author of the books that they read. Sure it is a plus if the author is engaging like a Walter Mosley, but we would all be better served if we judged a book on its own merits rather than confusing the issue with the authors personality of looks.
The trick is getting the book into the hands of readers but this will not happen without advertising, book reviews, and creative promotion. All this hand wringing ignores the fact that more work needs to be done on effectively advertising and promoting books.
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Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1082
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 12:22 pm: |
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Strange, but I actually agree with Kola on this one--about literary black fiction, that is. She can keep the rest, but she was on point about upper-middle-class black writers and their obsessive navel-gazing and refusal to tackle issues in black America that cut to the bone. This is why people should buy Nate, by P. Lewis, or failing that, Man Gone Down by Michael Thomas, or anything by Victor Lavalle or The Coldest Winter Ever by Sister Souljah. Darius James' Negrophobia and Paul Beatty's work would be good, too. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9140
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 12:39 pm: |
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Writing a book is one of the few endeavors that requires no talent, no skills, and no personality. All it takes is an exuberant notion that the world wants to read what you have to say, and the cash required to self-publish your masterpiece! The lack of capital that accounts for the paucity of black publishing houses available to release the work of literate authors is lamentable, but - one man's loss is another one's gain and if an enterprising person wants to make money, what he needs to do is to go into the printing business. Like funeral homes, printing companies will never lack customers because there will always be folks who want their books embalmed and laid out in a nice casket for the benefit of family and friends. When these self-published books are buried in the glut of a burgeoning market, the authors will at least have the fond memories of the book signing "wake" even as, with the passage of time, they mourn the loss of the money they invested in a book that expired. And who knows? Once a black printer makes a bundle he can always diversify his investments by starting up a publishing company that can give equal ltime to quality writers. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4811
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 01:32 pm: |
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Writing a book is one of the few endeavors that requires no talent, no skills, and no personality
True--unless you are trying to write a GOOD book |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4812
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 01:33 pm: |
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(http://authors.aalbc.com/martha_southgate.htm)
Boy, Martha looks awful happy. I wonder where is Troy's other hand.... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9144
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 02:08 pm: |
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I'm sure every aspiring writer thinks that what he or she writes will be GOOD. Nobody sets out to write a bad book. |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 304
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 02:09 pm: |
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You're right Cynique. Bowker, the company that sells ISBN numbers, must be making a killing as well as IUniverse and the other newfound subsidy publishers. Unfortunately, the marketplace is being flooded with mostly garbage (there are some gems that were self published or subsidy published) because of the avenues available. Now I see more and more authors who at first set out to self publish, now offer "publishing services" to new authors. It's an interesting trend. The wise businessperson will cater to the newfound author/egomaniac and offer fee-based services to help inflate the ego even more or at least help them gain more exposure.
I can understand the difference in opinion regarding the books that are out there. There are uninteresting books in all genres, and people will buy what they think will entertain or educate them. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4814
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 02:41 pm: |
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There are people who set out to write a book and know it isn't going to be any good--people who hack out porn, genre fiction, trashy romances I'm sure do not delude themselves that they are about to write a masterpiece. |
Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 189
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 02:51 pm: |
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Hi Mr. Johnson,
Kola Boof asked me to post her response. I look forward to finally meeting you in September.
Nafisa Goma.
TROY:
I’m not sure what is meant by “poorly written”, presumably an academic published by a major house will not produce a “poorly written” book.
Kola:
You've got to be kidding. First of all, "poorly written" has nothing to do with typos, errors...it has to do with someone writing about a subject (a black sharecropper's illerate daughter who builds fish ponds for a living, for instance)...and in the midst of all the writer's technical posturing, leaving the subject of the narrative ("Nessa")out of the book.
Something that academic writers are notorious for.
A good analogy for what I'm speaking about would be the recent piece about Condoleeza Rice being "technically proficient" to play the piano--BUT--failing as a concert pianist because of an inability to connect emotionally with the depth and scope of the material.
This, Troy....is very often the problem with academically-trained literary writers, whether they be white or black....but unfortunately....we have many Editors at Big Houses who are more impressed by the "technical riffs" ("Oh your writing reminds me of DANTE who I studied in Paris--'TIMES SUPPLEMENT' is going to rave about this!"}...than they are by the gut-wrenching feeling and the "haunting" that's supposed to occur after reading a really solid literary novel.
More than academic jousting, a really great literary writer needs to have some synthesis with poetry and come from some BRUTALLY HONEST place of turmoil inside--they don't have to be pretty, witty or talkative.
A stone block like "LURCH" from the Adam's Family could be a phantasmic literary writer simply by having something to say....that the masses aren't able to articulate for themselves.
As I have often written....when I write a book, story or a poem...my goal is always to find the "sincerity" and then work from the core of that...because it's the sincerity in a hit record ("Michelle/My bell/these are words that go together well...I love you/I love you/I love you") that makes that record live forever.
People don't realize that Aretha Franklin's classic "Ain't No Way" never hit higher than #84 on the music charts. But as the years went by...the song ended up selling over a million copies and became one of the most played radio records of the end of the 20th century.
I have seen this same thing happen with my books---when snobby BLACK EDITORS, fearful WHITE FEMALE EDITORS and bookstores like Eso Won and Hueman that basically stated that I'd never make it with my "themes" and "toplessness" because it insulted THEIR "middle class" values....yet the MASSES (THE PEOPLE) got a hold of my work and literally began selling and promoting it for me.
How many of you have been on a MY SPACE page and saw Kola Boof mentioned under "my favorite authors"? I don't have a MY SPACE page, but I've stumbled across more than a 100 where my name/books are mentioned OR the person has written a poem about me or QUOTES a character from one of my books and it ends up on GOOGLE.
THAT...is what LITERARY FICTION/POETRY is supposed to do.
Like a t-shirt...the people put it on.
It's not supposed to float "stagnant" in some Professor's round table or be the territory of
ACADEMIA...which is what "Black Literary Fiction" has become.
It doesn't matter that the literary Negroes in New York are discussing my sexuality or what they THINK I lied about...
...in Philly, Dallas, Hampton Roads, Boston, Chicago, Jacksonville and Stockholm....black people are connecting to the power of sincerity and making it possible for me to exist WITHOUT "Hueman Harlem" and "Black Issues Book Review".
So when you talk about POWERFUL BLACK EDITOR MALAIKA ADERO and the new black literary writers NOT breaking the ground they did in the 1970's and 1980's...that's what I'm talking about.
We're so part of the "establishment" that we're off track.
BACK IN THE DAY...people had rent parties and sat around quoting lines from books by Alice Walker, Maya Angelou, Amiri Baraka, Donald Goings, Ntzoke Shange and Toni Morrison....just as they go around quoting lines from my supposedly "underground" books NOW.
Snobbery and "conservatism" is at the core of a lot of the stagnant non-movement in today's BLACK LITERARY FICTION market.
They let "personal politics/pet peeves" interfere with what the artists are writing with pen and paper. It shouldn't matter if the artists are Ex-Cons, Nuns, sex slaves or university professors.
Everybody has something to say....and EDITORS have a responsiblity to the "Canon" of human thought and human sincerity.
TROY:
The implication from the above quote is that writers from “middle class backgrounds” are turning off the “traditional reader”. I’m not sure what this means, but one has to assume middle class folks ARE the core of the “traditional readers”.
Kola:
Troy...I was at a writer's baby shower and one of the women said: "What is it with all these black writers nowadays who know nothing about
black culture?"
I responded: "It's not that they don't know...it's that a lot of them are ashamed of it or they want to re-invent it to resemble the dominant culture".
(WHEN I SAY ASHAMED...look at Alice Walker and Marita Golden's valid points that 90% of black novels written by "brown skinned" black female writers feature a mulatto or "gray-eyed" leading lady who is part cherokee with flowing hair.
Now MOST editors, as Kathleen Cross pointed out so eloquently, believe that this is the image black women readers WANT.
But not only did Terry McMillan prove that to be wrong----but I have done book signings where black women hugged and praised me for having beautiful black women who are "black" and not BET video models featured in my books.
THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT WITH THE RECENT FAILURE OF BLACK LITERARY FICTION----I noticed
that "ugly ass Celie" in COLOR PURPLE has sold
25 million copies-----DING, DING, DING---apparently a whole lot of folks looks like Celie 'n SHug 'nem, right?)
But I have also noticed that "In America"--blackness can go in and out of style, but not whiteness, which is considered the NORM and
something to be EVOLVED to.
I am an upper middle class Black African writer, but when I write I do see black people as...."a people"...I haven't allowed myself to become disconnected to the people in the ghetto (I am from the ghetto) or the river people in Omdurman, Sudan (I am from the naked black ass river people, OK). Everything I do as an artist is to advance THEIR VOICE and THEIR CAUSE through my own ECCENTRIC force of will.
And you're wrong about middle class readers being the CORE of today's readers.
It's the middle class blacks who control the "black press" and have a voice, but....
Millions of poor blacks read at the library weekly. I get tons of email/letters from "poor black teenaged" girls, women in prisons, women on welfare.
Millions of black inner city people read books and Sister Souljah proved that there's a whole "under-class" of black women starving for books they can relate to.
TROY:
Kola also seems to equate “Dull” with “Literary”.
Kola:
You're totally wrong.
My books are classified as "Literary Fiction" and I'm insulted Troy that in addressing me, you seem to keep overlooking that glaring fact.
My books are studied at Brown University, Cal Poly, Northwestern. Derrick Bell did a whole class on "Kola Boof and the Media" at N.Y. University.
And for the record
....THAT....is why I keep using my own work as an example, is because you mention someone like Tayari Jones or Marth Southgate in one tone, but you seem to see me as...I don't know what.
But back to "dull" literary fiction.
People pay $25 for these damn books--twenty-five fucking dollars--and they get to page 50 and they're still not feeling it.
A book should make you ANGRY...or CHALLENGED...or be COMPELLING and INTERESTING....
THOUGHT PROVOKING.
A lot of literary novels fail because the "execution" of the story is Un-imaginative
I write literary fiction and I dare somebody to pick up one of my books...read
Page One...and be able to stop reading.
Here's PAGE ONE from my literary novel "Flesh and the Devil":
FATHER
Before the White people created time and sailed on ships to bring it to us--we lived forever.
••
We were not that tribe of charcoal people that could fly...no...we were their neighbors, the deep dark brown people who could reside underwater for days at a time.
My name was Kofi, but I died when I was about nineteen from a rotten tooth.
I was a son of the swimmers that settled along the ocean in the roam of West African jungle and the black wombs of warm lakes. The charcoal people knew us to be fierce warriors and agressive hunters. Imaginative, storytelling, superstitious men and women with muscular tombesque bodies, thick boar-sized buttocks, flat wide noses, wind-defying hair and fully everlasting lips. Our evil was more wicked than nary the most vicious hyena and our goodness was more godly than the creek of heaven in honey.
The charcoal people worshipped the sea, because they were afraid of it, and we, the sea dwellers, worshipped the sky, because we could not fly, and therefore, feared the wrath of both sun and moon.
Still, the flying tribe and the sea dwellers alike believed in the one true thing--the story of creation.
It is what kept us from war in the beginning, because our fathers talked about it and sang about it and told every generation about it each available moment.
I am not the only African who remembers so clearly.
Father would stand before the fire pit where mother roasted yams with whatever game he and his brothers had hunted down. He would be chewing on some fig or slice of kola nut and his chest would heave from the passion of his words as he taught us the story of creation (for all our lives, so we wouldn’t forget), his brow always lifted to the universe as he said, “The Sky was the man and the Sea...was the woman...and they hated each other!”
Not just us children, but all the wise people listened whenever someone was telling the story of creation. The art of listening, whether it be to animal sounds, humans or wind and rain patterns, was considered one of the highest virtues of mankind in those times.
Father would explain, “They hated each other, you understand, because there was no land, no earth back then, so they had no way of touching. It’s the not being able to touch that keeps the griot man and the fire witch at one another’s throats.”
Mother would always splash a little water on her long, heavy breasts at that moment--pursing her lips and rolling her eyes at father.
“Onward and forever, they were in a competition to see who was the most powerful one. The Sky would thunder and lightning, but never shed water, because the shedding of water would mean that he loved the Sea and this would give the Sea a victory. So instead, to slap her, the Sky would make fish-scooping, fire-breathing Teredactyl’s appear or send giant evil fire rocks hurtling past the night moons and into the Sea. And the Sea would hiss and howl, because she had only one thing to impress the Sky with and that was her mysteriously dark depths that not even the sun and moons could see all the way to the bottom of, and she would tease him with the leaping of her dolphins and the blowing of her whales and the rainbow-reflecting beams of giant jellyfish, and still, with all her beauty...she was frustrated that she hadn’t the power to reach up and touch the Sky.”
“So, of course, there had to be land...and one day, the Sky lost his advantage. He became anxious and alarmed, because he looked down and saw that the Sea had made a new creature...a dolphin with breasts!...leaping into the gold bars of the sun! It was a half woman, half fish--with a face dark and beautiful as hunter’s ebony and with hair just like ours--a short, thick jungle that was powerful enough to hold the water and sun
TROY:
Bottom line, and it looks like we agree here, is that there are good books (across all genres that could benefit from advertising dollars and some creative promotion.
Kola:
Oh....I definitely agree with you.
Because of the Black Editors in N.Y. and the White Women Editors who supervise them....I had to become the Queen of creative promotion.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9146
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 03:20 pm: |
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The word "masterpiece" is relevant, chrishayden. Hack writers are "good" at what they do, and not everybody has command of what it takes to write lurid trash. |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 305
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 04:01 pm: |
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Cynique,
There was one instance where writers set out to write a bad book. Have you heard of "Atlanta Nights"? A group of writers got together to prove PublishAmerica will publish anything, regardless of how crappy. Read all about the story here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Nights |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9149
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 04:32 pm: |
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Yes, Emanuel, I remember reading about this deliberately bad book before. Obviously I should've said that no writer hoping to write a masterpiece, sets out to not write one. LOL. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 471
Registered: 05-2006
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 05:54 pm: |
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I don't get what Southgate is griping about. Literary Fiction, regardless of who wrote it, has never had the commercial appeal of mainstream fiction or even genre fiction. At the same time, mainstream and genre fiction have never received the respect of literary fiction. It's a trade-off, plain and simple.
Sure, mainstream and genre fiction sell better than literary fiction because MF and GF are written in simpler everyday language to appeal to a broader audience. LF, on the other hand, is written in highly stylized, evolved language. With LF, it isn't so much the story itself as it is the way the story is presented. Literary Fiction is akin to giftwrap that's so beautiful it behooves one to exercise the greatest of care in unwrapping - then SAVING the giftwrap. The prized imagery, symbology, metaphors, rhythm, flow, profound themes, and dutiful word selection of LF render those books more valuable. Not so much in a monetary sense, but in a critical, cultural, social, and intellectual sense; sometimes a political sense as well. Let's face it, most people don't want to put that much effort into reading. Hell, most people don't want to put that much effort into writing.
Initial print runs for LF usually top-off at 5,000. Sales of 3,000 to 4,000 of LF is considered respectable by industry standards. In the case of MF and/or GF, sales of 5,000 means you're just getting warmed up.
An LF author whose previous work sold 4,000 copies would have NO PROBLEM having their next work seriously considered for publication. Whereas an MF or GF author whose previous work sold 4,000 copies would have their current ms laughed out of the acquisition meeting.
Southgate fails to acknowledge that there are pros and cons in having any ms acquired for publication and ultimately bookstore/library placement, be it literary or mainstream or genre fiction; be the author Black, White or indifferent. Southgate fails to acknowledge that literary fiction by definition limits its commercial appeal.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1656
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 07:41 pm: |
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URBAN_SCRIBE Said:
The prized imagery, symbology, metaphors, rhythm, flow, profound themes, and dutiful word selection of LF render those books more valuable. Not so much in a monetary sense, but in a critical, cultural, social, and intellectual sense; sometimes a political sense as well. Let's face it, most people don't want to put that much effort into reading. Hell, most people don't want to put that much effort into writing.
I agree absolutely. I was thinking that literary fiction can sometimes be extremely heavy handed when it comes to all of the things you mentioned. IMO, it appears that these writers seek to prove some type of point. Almost as if they feel that by virtue of literary fiction being somewhat enigmatice alone, should propel them into a status that they would deem unreachable by all other writers. With the exception of those who share the the same vision of what makes writing a worthy venture.
Take for example this line from the 600pg plus literary classice "MOBY DICK" by Melville
"Let us aqueeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm if kindness" and another line
"In thoughts of blue visions of the night, I saw long rows of angels in paradise, each with his hands in a jar of spermaceti"
Even though the imagery and poetic sense of thsee lines may be considered beautiful by some, in the world we live in today, do readers really want to wade through this to get to what the writer is really trying tell say? |
A_womon
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Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1657
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 07:44 pm: |
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I meant "what the writer is trying TO say"
MY BAD! |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5159
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 08:48 pm: |
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Nafola strikes again. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9150
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 08:58 pm: |
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The other day, while waiting at the local library for my granddaughter to finish up with her session in a summer reading program, I went browsing around the adult non-fiction section and "what to my wandering eyes should appear" but the book that boardie "Steve" has been deconstructing for us: Arnold Rampersad's biography of Ralph Ellison, author of what is arguably the definitive black novel of our times: "Invisible Man". There this book was, prominently displayed on a table showcasing new releases. I picked it up, noting that it was 566 pages long, and that the pristine date due slip indicated no one had yet checked it out. I thumbed through the pages, scanning the chapter titles, peering at a collection of pictures spanning Ellson's life, and after several more minutes, I venture to say that I did what very few patrons of this library will do. I went to the front desk and checked the book out. It looked interesting and since biographies of famous black people have presently become my reading matter of choice, I have put everything thing else on hold and am tackling this massive book which I assume could be referred to as a "literary" work. It's painstakingly well-written, rich in detail, intimate in tone, but having gotten through just over a hundred pages of it, I can well understand why this book would intimidate a reader. I'm actually finding it to be very interesting because it does what I appreciate about the biographical genre; it deals not only with the life of the subject, but with the times in which he lived. (1913-1994.) This Ralph Ellison biography is an important work, worthy of publication because it leaves a legacy for posterity but it's not for the faint of heart, and so everything that Urban_Scribe says is well-taken. A book can be like a friend, and if you want somebody to hang out and have fun with, - as most people do, then it's your prerogative to go with lusty Zane, not erudite Arnold Rapersad. |
A_womon
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Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 05-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 09:45 pm: |
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Wow, I just reread my post and it contains a lot of typos. Sorry everyone, should have proofed it before I posted! Hope it doesn't detract from the point I was trying to make too much... |
Troy
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Username: Troy
Post Number: 678
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 01:06 pm: |
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Kola/Nafisa_goma I'm overwhelmed with your response. I also I take issue with some of what was written. Most of it has to do with conclusions drawn from assumptions and premises I don’t believe to be true or unrelated-, but there is too much there for me to address here and still have a coherent post.
I agree with Urban-scribe; but I don't think anyone expects literary fiction to sell as much as commercial fiction.
My contention is that "good" literary fiction can sell more than is currently does -- if the authors and publishers would get off their collective rumps and tell people about these good books.
For example, take the book Allah Is Not Obliged by Ahmadou Kourouma http://aalbc.com/reviews/allah_is_not_obliged.htm Based solely on the strength of Thumper's review I KNOW this is a good book. I started reading it myself this morning.
That is not to say that I like every book that Thumper likes (I do not), but I've read enough of his reviews to know that I will like this particular book.
OK, so the publisher sents us this book. I place it on the stack with the other unsolicited books I receive. Thumper, however, chooses to review it for the web site. I did not assign it to him for review (Editor's note: Yes, AALBC.com does review some books for free - the paid reviews guarantee that review will be written and published in a timely fashion).
Back to Allah Is Not Obliged; now the review will be mentioned in the newsletter. If people ask me for a book recommendation I will recommend this book. My wife has already expressed interest in using the book in her classroom -- this is all good and will generate sales.
Now do you think the publisher will capitalize on this free publicity? I’ll tell you the answer: No. For the most part publishers feel their job ends when they send out review copies. Ahmadou Kourouma, passed away a few years ago. So the book will die after a few thousand copies and that will be that on to the next book.
Meanwhile the authors will stand around wondering why literary fiction does not sell and readers will continue wondering why more good books are not being published.
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 472
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 01:55 pm: |
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Troy wrote:
Now do you think the publisher will capitalize on this free publicity? I’ll tell you the answer: No. For the most part publishers feel their job ends when they send out review copies. Ahmadou Kourouma, passed away a few years ago. So the book will die after a few thousand copies and that will be that on to the next book.
Meanwhile the authors will stand around wondering why literary fiction does not sell and readers will continue wondering why more good books are not being published.
TJ, you nailed it!
In the case of ARCs (Advance Review Copies), once reviews are received, a few of the most favorable along with finalized text and finalized cover are sent to the printer. There's then an ad campaign while the book is still new and fresh. This allows the publisher their best opportunity to recoup their investment. After that, unless the book is in high demand, everyone's buzzing about it, and copies are flying off the shelves, it's pretty much forgotten about and, as you said, "on to the next book." Those who know about the book, know about it. Those who don't, unfortunately probably never will.
Y'know I gotta defend the publishing industry, right? LOL! The thing to remember here is that marketing and promotion dollars for a particular book are predetermined at the time the P&L (Profit and Loss) Statement is drafted. And of course, the bigger the author the more advertising dollars are allocated to promote their book. First time and lesser known authors are lucky to have a paltry $1000 allocated to promote their work. We know a 'G' doesn't buy much advertising. Someone like Stephen King, for example, would have a $20K advertising budget - just to promote ONE book.
That being said, it bears pointing out that publishing is an industry, a business. As with any business, the bottom line IS the bottom line. Publishers are not going to spend money on M&P unless the spending is justified, and they know they'll more than recoup their investment when all's said and done. While reviews are important, and favorable reviews are coveted, fact is, good reviews in and of themselves simply are NOT enough justification for any publisher to invest more advertising funds into a book.
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Troy
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Username: Troy
Post Number: 679
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 03:21 pm: |
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Urban_scribe, admittedly, I'm not on the hook for a publishers P&L and there are factors of which I'm not aware.
That said from this side of the fence publishers squander opportunities and waste money.
Perhaps they should look at books like a portfolio of stocks, and manage them as such. Invest in the ones showing strength and dump the dogs. In fact if I was a little smarter I would develop a model myself...
However like a portfolio of stocks you KNOW some are going to lose money and others are not. As market conditions change you adapt and allocation assets accordingly.
If publishers are deciding how much to spend on marketing and promotion before the book is even out -- that is a grave error.
Even that $1,000 may be too much to invest in a book. Trying to guess this in advance is a crap shoot.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of literary books by Black authors are reviewed prior to pub date and who is publishing these reviews. |
Kola_boof
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Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4510
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 04:36 pm: |
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Troy,
I agree with you 100% about the impotency of publishers.
My point to you---as a literary writer---is that the EDITORS at the major houses also don't "take risks" and...you cannot have breakthroughs... without breakthrough product material.
The "product"...Troy...is even more crucial than the publcizing of the product.
NOBODY promoted "Native Son" by Richard Wright, Troy....James Baldwin has written whole essays about how nobody promoted his first book---but the books were so ORIGINAL, so RELEVEANT and the authors so PASSIONATE..they sold themselves and became major "breakthroughs".
Derrick Bell and romance novelist Sandra Kitt (a woman I don't even know and still haven't spoken to) were so moved by my new novel "The Sexy Part of the Bible" that they began agenting the book themselves---yet just as Derrick predicted, "EDITORS" (and especially "black" editors) claimed that nobody wants to read an entire book about the issue of "skin bleaching" in West Africa--despite the story being told very entertainingly by a dead supermodel and a rap star--Mainly because the book deals "invasively" with "WHY" the "teenagers" in these villages/townships want to bleach their skin.
One black editor actually spoke these exact words: "This has never been written before--we have no way of knowing how the public would react to this story."
In other words, "race" can only be written about in "SAFE"/HISTORICAL/Past Terms.....black writers cannot analyze "race" in the CURRENT/PRESENT TENSE.
Hence...a weaker product.
Do you understand the difference between literary novel "The Known World" (set 200 years ago).....and a book set in 2006 ("Sexy Part") that shows European Pharmaceutical companies manufacturing "the Michael Jackson Pill" and "Nadinola Skin Bleach" and making $1 billion per 6 months importing this to 50 Africa nations----there hasn't been a novel about this subject, but the editors explain to Derrick that anything "racial" should be written in "PAST TENSE"---not current.
That mentality, Troy, among black editors, is ALSO what's stopping Black Literary Fiction from producing the "breakout" books that were admittedly controversial but were groundbreaking for black writers in the 1960's-1980's.
As Derrick told me--it will probably be a "White Male Editor" who finally green-lights the book.
Conservatism grips the black editors in charge of finding and green-lighting new books and I challenge you to name me ONE BLACK LITERARY TITLE by a "major house" since the 21st century began that has caused an "uproar" of "consciousness" and "discussion" amongst Black people.
In many ways, Street LIT is the closest thing we've got to having an "erection" (penile or nipple) in black writing.
In literary fiction...Paul Beatty is the closest thing that we've got to a black writer who is allowed to "rock the boat".
And for black artists of any kind...they can't afford to wait for their publishers to promote their work. You have to get out there and toot your own horn. Look at me---I'm on the smallest black label in America and yet I'm a bigger author than Martha Southgate, Tayari Jones or Erica Turnipseed---all of whom are at major houses.
You really think corporate America wants "intelligent black people" to blow up?
Black Authors have to sell themselves!
And more than that...you have to have a strong PRODUCT that moves people to insist others read your book, because honestly....a lot of today's "black literary fiction" is stale, un-original, non-relevent and comes off academic rather than sincere.
Black music and black literature are dead right now.....because of the people in charge.
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 474
Registered: 05-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 04:52 pm: |
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If publishers are deciding how much to spend on marketing and promotion before the book is even out -- that is a grave error.
That's the way it's done in book publishing - and it's been this way going on a century. The whole thing: advertising, editing, cover design, production costs, print runs, advance review copies, complimentary copies, number of units expected to sell - it's all based on a projection.
Those projections, while not exact, are based on industry research and for the most part are pretty reliable. Otherwise, the editor responsible for researching the market and supplying projections to the editorial board will become well-known for "missing the mark," and will soon find herself looking for a job.
So, projecting how much a book will cost to publish and how well it will sell in advance, then basing how much money to pour into its advertising and the author's advance, if any, on those figures isn't really a crap shoot. It's more of an educated guess.
Hey, I'm the first to admit that the publishing industry has its flaws. Many can make a strong argument that the publishing industry is in need of reform. But as it stands, the industry has been operating the same way since the 1920's; and for all its faults, publishing gets it right significantly more often than it gets it wrong.
Maybe that new business model you have in mind can rescue us.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of literary books by Black authors are reviewed prior to pub date and who is publishing these reviews.
I don't know the exact percentage of literary books by Black authors, per se, but I can look them up.
Overall, however, it's customary in the industry to submit books 4-6 months in advance of publication date for review; to such journals as the NYT Book Review, Kirkus, Publishers Weekly, BookList, Library Journal, USAToday, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Boston Globe. These are the "heavy hitters" as far as review journals are concerned. None of the journals mentioned review books AFTER they've been published; except in the case of commissioned reviews as offered by Kirkus Discoveries. They also schedule their reviews and author interviews to coincide with the release of the book.
In fact, at major houses and even small-midsize presses, once the contract is signed editors put together bound "Uncorrected Page Proofs" and send them out to these reviewers - BEFORE the ms is even edited. (We use Crane, btw). We know it's going to take them 4-6 months to get back to us because they have so many books to review. So books placed on the publishing calendar for November release, their ARCs and/or bound UPPs are submitted for review May-July. By the time we receive the reviews, the book has been edited, the line-by-line is complete, and the book's in its final pre-press stages. We receive the reviews just in time to have the best reviews printed on the back cover, or included in the front matter of the book. Editors must then follow-up by sending a finished copy of the novel/book to EVERY reviewer we submitted a bound UPP to and a thank you note. Even if the reviewer "dissed" the book, we still send a finished copy and a thank you note.
On average, we send out 125 ARCs/UPPs followed up with 125 finished copies of the books and 125 thank you notes. The cost of these bound UPPs, complimentary reviewers' copies of the finished book, and thank you notes is figured into the P&L Statement as a loss, but a necessary cost of doing business.
This is the way it's been working for nearly a century at the major houses: RH, S&S, GCP, Macmillan, and Harper Collins, for instance; and venerable small and midsize presses: Soho, Soft Skull, Belletristic, Behler, Akashic, Graywolf, and Zumaya, for instance. Less reputable, lesser known small presses may have a different way of doing things; provided they even know what they're doing, of course.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9155
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 05:23 pm: |
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When it comes to the publishing industry, Urban_Scribe certainly makes a good case for the ol "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" adage. People always want to try and humanize this industry because they invest so much of themselves in their books. But sounds like any author who isn't a cash cow can apparently forget about quitting their day job. And so it goes. |
Urban_scribe
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Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 475
Registered: 05-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 06:02 pm: |
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Hey, Kola, cut us editors some slack. LOL!
Fact is, we don't make the final decision as to what does or doesn't get published. We can absolutely, positively LOVE, LOVE, LOVE a particular ms. We can crunch all the numbers and do all projections. We can go before the editorial board - the big cheese who signs our paychecks - and argue passionately why the book deserves to be published. But if they vote no, then it's NO.
Then we'll meet up with a fellow editor-friend at Giggles or Elaine's and talk shit about how the industry is going to the dogs and drown our sorrows in buffalo wings and chocolate martinis. Then, and this is the coup de grace, we have to return to the office and send a rejection letter to the author who wrote a book we really love and want to publish, but "the higher ups" didn't give us the go-ahead. That is hands down the most gut-wrenching part of this business.
An editor is a foot in the door. But it's the head honchos who comprise the editorial board with the keys to the door. Unless you own the publishing company, it takes, on average, 20 years industry experience just for your name to come up to be considered for a seat on the editorial board. |
A_womon
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Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1661
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 08:28 pm: |
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Writing is no different than any other business venture in which you are going to become a contractor/self employed. You have to weigh the risks, look at your stregnths, weaknesses, and financial reserves and then decide whether or not you have what it takes to make it in this business. So I don't believe that one must necessarily prove that they are a money maker for a publisher before deciding whether or not to pursue writing fulltime. Just like with any other venture, one must have the drive, determination, perserverance, and talent mixed with the right combination of business savvy, and the ability to market yourself and your product. Many writers have proven this. Armed with these skills, some have made it big and therefore pushed the publishing company to contribute more dollars than originally allocated for promotions and publicity, etc. and others have fallen flat on their faces. That's life. The same can be said for any other business venture where you will basically become your own boss. |
Troy
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Username: Troy
Post Number: 680
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 01:44 pm: |
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Urban_scribe these are tremendous posts thanks. Do we know each other? I had BBQ last night and was speaking to an executive editor (Black) of a major house and we spoke about this issue. The insight from his perspective was interesting and enlightening. Actually if you are able to finds out it would useful to know what percentage of books by Black authors are reviewed by the Major entities you pointed out
I’ve also here stories over and over from editors and agents about terrific manuscripts that don’t get published. What ultimately happens to them? Are they lost forever? Sounds like a potential business to me. You folks should get together and published some of these books.
At the end of the day it is easy to say what we think someone else should do with there money…
I think you bring out an important point in that publishers are doing things the same way since the 1920’s. Any industry that is doing things the same way they did a century ago is doing things wrong. If they are making money, they could be making far more... This model is suboptimal. Now if all of these entities collude at the senior levels they, effectively, have a monopoly and there is actually a disincentive to innovate. Consciousness raising is a completely different story…
Consciousness raising Kola I think is the issue you are addressing. (side bar: Kola so "Nadinola Skin Bleach" is being sold in Africa today. This was the same product heavily advertised in Ebony magazine almost a century ago - fascinating. Is it still sold here?
Kola as we know, publishers typically wait for a trend to develop then follow it. This is why there is so much street lit today. All the publishers picked up it after the successes of a few independent authors, which bring even more independent authors into the arena seeking riches too. This is not risk taking but risk avoidance by trend following.
Of course this works, it is almost a no brainier. Zane “discovers” a market for erotic fiction – publishers jump on board. Terry, before Zane, discovers a market and publishers bring to bear the full weight of the institutions.
…But there are exceptions to the rule. Walter Zacharius former, CEO of Kensington Publishing Corp was responsible; as I’m told by Black romance novelists, for bringing Black romance novels to the mainstream reader. He discovered the untapped market and despite internal opposition proceeded reap financial reward by satisfying an unmet demand. I met Walter and I plan to interview him on the subject in the coming months.
Kola there are many Black fiction titles that have generated and uproar and discussion. However on the literary side I can’t think of any. That however does not mean that books with that potential have not been written that just means I don’t know about them. Maybe one of the pure booksellers lurking out there can mention some titles. Perhaps these are included in the slush pile of MS’s that Urban_scribe spoke about
Again my position is that with a little intelligence, data, experience and the willingness to take a risk. A major house can spot a trend before it is obvious to everyone and publish those books ahead of the curve. Perhaps the books you speak of Kola would qualify, perhaps not. Continue to sell books in the quantities you claim, don’t worry you be picked up by a major house (or someone with enough financial resources to make you a commercial success on the order of Terry Mac. <i>(though you may have to start using the F-word a little more to be in Terry’s league)
Kola check out some of the titles by Soft Skull, Akashic press you may be impressed a couple of their titles.
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4511
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 03:06 pm: |
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TROY:
Consciousness raising Kola I think is the issue you are addressing.
KOLA:
Troy,
I realize that you don't mean to do it on purpose.
But "Native Son", along with being "consciousness raising" is also WORLD CLASS LITERATURE. The works of James Baldwin along with being "consciousness raising" are WCLITERATURE.
And I know that while you've also LAZILY deposited me into the pile "consciousness raisers".....my work is also LITERATURE.
I received the following note from Chinua Achebe in 2005:
"My dear Bad Kola,
Day-WO!!!!
Congratulations on penning one of the best opening lines I've seen in a novel in years.
You need to behave Kola, but Chinweizu is right, no one can deny
you are a gift to us.
That opening line, TROY: "Before the white people created time and sailed on ships to bring it to us--we lived forever."
But at least you actually PROVED MY POINT about the "conservatism" of Black Editors, as many of them---like you---see anything that dares to be confrontational as merely "consciousness raising".
And this is why there are no BREAKTHROUGH books in Black Literary Fiction.
And as I was saying before, the "black middle class" who control black lit have become such a part of the Establishment that they confuse the difference between "black rhetoric" and the literary properties of the black masses.
The following is pure literature Troy....
BOY MAGIC:
Signature of the Illicit
To which a stunned and diminishing Nuntandi quietly advised: "If you truly believe in God, then be careful not to brag--for if God observes that you are stong enough to take a bullet--then surely, he will arrange for you to be shot. That is the way of all Gods...Hell-in. I don't do interviews."
Now what does that have to do with anybody's race?
*Kola Boof wrote that.
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4512
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 03:14 pm: |
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**For people who don't study English Lit, the reason that this line was so praised:
"Before the white people created time and sailed on ships to bring it to us--we lived forever."
is because (1) it sums up the entire novel in the first opening line. (2) That one line can also stand alone as either "metaphor", "poetry" or it can be taken "literally".
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 685
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 06:14 pm: |
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Kola, honestly I'm not sure I'm qualified to distinquish one work as "literary" (good or bad) vs "non-literary". So I'm cautious about applying the label.
For example while I believe Edward P Jones The Known World is a good book, I don't consider it literary, while others who have read it have...
I was not attempting to dump your literature in any category. I did not address your literture in my posts. I have never read, in entirety, any of your books; so I would not offer MY personal opinion.
When asked about your books I tell people that we have favorably reviewed two of them, they sell very well on the site, you are typically topless on the back cover and that I'm not aware of anyone who did read the books who did not like them.
Sure, "Before the white people created time and sailed on ships to bring it to us--we lived forever." is a good line and one that I would consider literary. I will prbably quote it in the future.
Side bar: Kola were you aware of the African Writers Conference that was just held in Aspen CO.?
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Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 12-2005
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 06:36 pm: |
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BullSHIT. White people didn't invent time. Ancient Egyptians did--they devised the first calendar known to humanity, didn't they? And isn't a calendar an aspect of what we know as time?
BTW, what is up with all the uncredited and unverifiable quotes from famous Africans like Chinwa Achebe? Are we supposed to believe this shit? |
Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1085
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 06:41 pm: |
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Troy, if The Known World isn't literary, then seriously, what is? It is fiction, apparently with serious intent, well-written and well-paced. What other qualifiers does a serious work of fiction need? |
Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 192
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 08:34 pm: |
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Mr. Johnson,
Kola Boof asked me to post a final response, because as you know, there are certain people on this board that she will never converse with.
Kola says that she was sent an email about an African Writers event in both Winnipeg and Aspen but that she had no interest in attending. Kola writes for television and has a busy schedule. After her appearance at the Stromburg in Sept., she does hope to do a tour to launch "Virgins In the Beehive" in November.
Troy Johnson is well aware of Ms. Boof's friendship with people like Derrick Bell and Keith Boykin.
It's public knowledge that Derrick Bell did a course on Kola Boof at N.Y. University and at the African Writer's Conference in Paris--Molefi Kete Asante named Kola Boof as one of Africa's most important new writers (though some Africans have complained that Kola is a "cultural hybrid" who writes more for Black Americans).
And, additionally, Ms. Boof is very close friends with Nigerian scholar Chinweizu--who is one of Chinua Achebe's very best friends for over 30 years, which is the reason that Ms. Boof has Chinua Achebe's phone number and email address (or rather his wife's, who handles his email).
Kola Boof would not post anyone's comments/praise of her work if those comments were not true--it would be pretty stupid to do such considering that half the publishing biz comes to this board at some point. Kwame Dawes and Chris Abani are also Non-American writers that Kola counts as aquaintences.
Tiki Barber, who told Sports Illustrated Magazine that his favorite interview for the entire year of 2006 was with Kola Boof, has also praised Kola Boof's writing.
Sports Illustrated Link:
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:pOVy0F7OcawJ:sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/ writers/peter_king/10/22/tiki.barber/index.html+Tiki+Barber+Bin+Laden%27s+Mistre ss&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Praise
http://poetwomen.50megs.com/custom2.html
KANYE WEST, who Ms. Boof doesn't know and has never spoken to, gave a "blurb" to Ms. Boof's upcoming novel "Virgins In the Beehive" after Kola Boof was approached about a "bra" ad for RocaWear, and through RocaWear, Kevin Johnson at Door of Kush sent a few chapters of the book to Gee Roberson and Kyambo Joshua at Atlantic Records requesting a blurb from several hip hop stars--only Kanye West had heard of Kola Boof.
As for "Egyptians creating time"----the line in Kola's books is spoken by an ancient West African boy named Kofi who has no knowledge of Egypt. To that young African boy, it's the "Whites" who have interrupted African life and contaminated it with the notion of "time".
Apparently, the person "vomitting" on the board didn't consider that the line had a "context" related to the novel---"Flesh and the Devil"--and was being spoken by the NARRATOR of the book from the narrator's point of view.
"F&D", by the way, is the novel that caused Chinweizu to write a letter to Toni Morrison and Chinua Achebe telling them that Ms. Boof was Africa's "most important new writer (his exact words).
Chinweizu is the man who wrote the classic book "The West and the Rest of Us"--which was EDITED BY TONI MORRISON.
In a recent newspaper article that he wrote for Nigeria's "Vanguard"--he quoted Kola Boof:
http://www.vanguardngr.com/articles/2002/politics/june07/01062007/p801062007.htm l
So I don't see why anyone would try to claim that Ms. Boof would need to lie on famous people and make up blurbs when she herself has appeared in TIME MAGAZINE, HARPER'S, The N.Y. Times, The N.Y. Post (5 times), MSNBC, FOX.
_____________
Unfortunately, Mr. Johnson, just as people believe that Thumper was you, people believe that I am Kola Boof, and so I expect more ignorant "vomit-like" comments will be spewed after this post, but Kola and I look forward to seeing you in September--she is very excited to take a site photo with you.
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Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 08:47 pm: |
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Nafisa_gomez, you are Kola Boof. Even Troy knows this.
BTW Chinwezu can't be serious. If Arabs can't lick Israel how can they possibly take on an entire continent? ;) That's just weak. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 687
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 09:29 pm: |
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Schakspir, I see the quote went completely over your head... and that is deep.
Schakspir, I don't think "well written" as you define it is an adequate defintion of literary.
I believe Jean Toomer's Cane is a literary novel, as well as Morrison's Beloved. I don't anyone would argue with me about categorizing these two books a literary.
Jones' novel was a solid, straight forward novel, well written (in my opinion, as I know people who did not like the novel).
Maybe one of the academic out there can describe the characteristics of a literary novel.
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 688
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 09:38 pm: |
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BTW, Nafisa_goma & Schakspir do me a favor and stop saying what I know.
Support your arguments with verifiable facts. |
Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1087
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 10:08 pm: |
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Troy, Native Son, Journey to the end of the Night(by Celine), Molloy, Tropic of Cancer, All-Night Visitors....I think you are taking "literary" to mean essentially arty. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 476
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 10:12 pm: |
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We have a saying in publishing: There's literary fiction then there's everything else.
Here's the rub, that "everything else" pays for literary fiction to be published. There are some small presses that publish literary fiction exclusively. That's their niche market, and they may only publish 5 or 6 books per year. At a major house, however, literary fiction accounts for a small percentage of the books published each year because they don't make much money. If fact, they often lose money for the publisher, but they're fantastic books. So, the sales generated by a mainstream or genre novel covers the cost of publishing a few literary novels. As a result, even a major house will only publish, say, 15-20 literary novels each year; whereas they'll publish 100 mainstream/genre/children's books/self-help books/textbooks.
LF is considered serious writing. It's profound, it's conceptual, it's elevated, it's surreal, it's esoteric. Those who criticize LF call it "pretentious bullshit." If you're reading a book and scratching your head trying to figure out what the author is really saying, odds are you're reading literary fiction.
TJ, no I'm not the "executive editor (Black) of a major house" you were grilling and chilling with last night. But I have one word for you - Amistad - and I'm gonna leave it at that.
As for the stats, I have to get to the office and access my database. If I have a chance, I'll post them tomorrow. If not, I'll post them Friday. K? |
Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 193
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 10:57 pm: |
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Troy Johnson,
Kola said to email her and she'll put you in touch with Molefi Kete Asante, Chinua Achebe, Tiki Barber and Atlantic Records if that's what you meant by "verifiable".
She would never post a comment/blurb of someone famous if it wasn't true.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1662
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 03:36 am: |
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We have debated this issue many, many, times on this board and I don't think there has ever been a definitive answer on what differentiates literary fiction from all the rest. Even when examples have been given of what is generally thought to be literary, someone else comes along and debunks it (them). We generally end up with a case of you say "potato" and I say "potahto". |
Steve_s
Regular Poster
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 273
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:01 am: |
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The local Waldenbooks at the mall in this town of 17,000 just got in 3 copies of "Allah is Not Obliged," Sierra Leonean author Ahmadou Kourouma's new novel about African boy soldiers. Literally next door to the Waldenbooks is a Starbucks, which until a month or so ago was featuring one book: Ishmael Beah's "A Long Way Gone," a memoir of life as a boy soldier in...you guessed it...Sierra Leone! Not to be too cynical, but I'd be willing to bet that Beah's memoir has been public relations Black Gold for the coffee giant, plagued by recriminations about its corporate ethical practices in Africa. I say this as a drinker of Starbucks coffee.
Chris Abani has just written a novella about an African boy soldier, "Song For Night," and I've read "Beasts of No Nation," Uzodinma Iweala’s award-winning novel about African boy soldiers and Alephonsion and Benson Deng’s “lost boys” memoir, "They Poured Fire on Us from the Sky." Dave Eggers recently published a fictionalized memoir of Valentino Deng (no relation) called "What is the What?" which I believe breaks the taboo about stating the connection between the two groups of boys.
So now there is a market for books about African boys, and like most literature, music, and art, inspiration is mostly a process of imitation of other art, it's not derived directly from an individual's interpretation of his or her own experience. As a result, the Western world's interest in and understanding of African life and African humanity is being filtered through the lurid experience of a number of Charles Taylor-like "small boys units," which are really nothing more than gangs. In the sixties, the rage was social-science-like fiction about life in the ghetto, some of it written most convincingly by white people.
I started Dave Eggers's novel and I may read Allah is Not Obliged based on Thumper's opinion and the "starred" review it received in PW, but after that I'm limiting my intake of books of this type.
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Steve_s
Regular Poster
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 274
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:26 am: |
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I mostly agree with Martha Southgate but I disagree on a few little things.
Most "serious readers of literary fiction" may know who Edward P. Jones is, but they don't recognize the names ZZ Packer or Colson Whitehead. I've read half of the books on her reading list, including "The Kind of Light That Shines on Texas," "Erasure," "I Got Somebody in Staunton," "The Chaneysville Incident," and "Elbow Room," but these books and authors are unknown to most readers, black or white, just as Ralph Ellison was and still is only a name to most people.
Martha mentions the Granta Best of the Young American Novelists II list (BOYAN II). These authors all have masters degrees in creative writing from schools like Stanford, Princeton, and Iowa. While she notes the list's ethnic diversity, she fails to mention that the cutoff age for the award has been lowered from 40 - where it was in 1996 when Edwidge Danticat and others made the BOYAN I list - to 35, and it will probably get even younger.
Of the five I've read, Akhil Sharma, who's now 35 or 36 (his novel was published 6 years ago), is the oldest. The last I heard, he was working full-time at an investment firm on Wall Street. ZZ Packer (who I love but who is not officially a "novelist" yet) and Anthony Doer are a few years younger than him; Daniel Alarcon is now 30 and has already published two or three books; and Uzodinma Iweala, now 25, had his novel published shortly out a Harvard.
Akhil Sharma studied at Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School and took creative writing courses with Toni Morrison before moving on to Stanford. Another young author who's not on the list because he's not an American is Mohsin Hamad, whose month-long author discussion I participated in recently. He also studied with Morrison at Princeton. It's great if you can get in.
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Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2117
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 11:34 am: |
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Troy--curious: How many books (if any) do you receive for review from academic presses? |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 478
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 11:43 am: |
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TJ, stats for 2006 aren’t yet available. The most recent stats available from UNESCO is for 2005. In 2005 172,000 total books (that is, books with ISBNs) were published in the USA. Of those 172,000 books, 33,052 were categorized as Literature; 9% of that 33,052 was categorized as African American Literature (roughly 3000 books). UNESCO doesn’t have stats on how many of those books were reviewed, but I was able to obtain a list from BookList, 2005-(partial 2006), of AA Literature they reviewed. I notice Ms. Southgate appears on the list.
The list is as follows:
Strange Bedfellows by Paula L. Woods
Third Girl from the Left by Martha Southgate
On Beauty by Zadie Smith
Changing Faces by Kimberly Lawson Roby
My Jim by Nancy Rawles
The Professor’s Daughter by Emily Raboteau
Dancing in the Dark by Caryl Phillips
The War at Home by Kris Nelscott
Cinnamon Kiss by Walter Mosley
Fear of the Dark by Walter Mosley
The Interruption of Everything by Terry McMillan
Nowhere is a Place by Bernice L. McFadden
Small Island by Andrea Levy
The Untelling by Tayari Jones
All Aunt Hagar’s Children by Edward P. Jones
Abraham’s Well by Sharon Ewell Foster
Joplin’s Ghost by Tananarive Due
Wild Stars Seeking Midnight Suns by J. California Cooper
Babylon Sisters by Pearl Cleage
72 Hour Hold by Bebe Moore Campbell
Fledgling by Octavia Butler
Upstate by Kalisha Buckhanon
They Tell Me of a Home by Daniel Black
I don't have time to check the status of the reviews (favorable/unfavorable), but they were reviewed. Hope this is of some help to you.
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 689
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 01:09 pm: |
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Schakspir:
"I think you are taking "literary" to mean essentially arty. Yes you are probably right.
Urban_scribe:
No, I did not think you were the cat I was grillin and chillin with, but I was wondering if I knew you... Again thank you for the informative posts!
23 books! Even if you number was off by an order of magnitude; these are dismal figures.
I'm sure the majority if not all of these books were favorably reviewed. We've reviewed and discussed a number of them.
Yvettep:
I don't keep count, but I get quite a number of books from academic presses. Keep in mind I typically discourage publishers from sending me unsolicited books. Occassional I’ll request a review copy, but this is rare, especially since Kam as been reviewing titles from academic presses
Steve_s:
Sounds like more trend following with the African Boy soldier novels. I just watched Blood Diamond last night. I just kept thinking first we were savages with bones in our noses and Africans are depicted as violent blood thirsty maniacs. So I hear you, one has to balance their consumption of this stuff otherwise you'll just think all Africa's are just devils.
Nafisa_goma:
I never said Kola was not telling the truth. What I said was stop using me to support your positions. When you write: "Troy Johnson is well aware of Ms. Boof's friendship with people like Derrick Bell and Keith Boykin." that riles me because, this statement is false, NOT true, a lie.
How would I know this to be true? Just because you or Kola have said it is true? I have never spoken to Derrick Bell and Keith Boykin about Kola. I have no opinion one way or the other about the matter. However I will tell you when you drag my name into it, knowing I have know way of knowing, it does raise suspicions in my mind.
Therefore if you want to purport that Derrick Bell and Keith Boykin and Kola are all friends, simply do so and leave me out of it.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9159
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 01:30 pm: |
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I would think that, in regard to what constitutes literate works, the criteria for it is pretty well established among acamedicians. Like classical music, literature has a lot to do with superb writing that stands the test of time. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 01:37 pm: |
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Wow--Kalisha Buchanan--Kim Roby--Terry McMillan--the books in this list are considered literary? I'm really shocked--I thought that "The Interruption of Everything" was the worst book I've read of TM's to date! About a woman in the throes of menopause. Kalisha's book about letters to a prisoner made the list too? And Kim's book about one woman's struggle to lose weight, these books lead me to the same conclusion I had years ago, that to be considered literary one has only to write about the human condition as problematic as it applies to a targeted situation or populace. IE., Changing Faces--the obesity problem in the US...ect. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 01:40 pm: |
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And if I'm not mistaken, Upstate was/is Miss Buchanon's debut. She's a young writer too! |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 691
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 01:41 pm: |
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Cynique, I read the list to be that of "African American Literature" not Literary novels. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9161
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 02:05 pm: |
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LOL. Well it is hard to debate the issue when literature and literary mean different things to different industries. But it sounds to me like to the publishing industry, literature is literate prose which is published without regard to the profit factor. I would venture to say that the books that fall into this categroy would also be deemed literature by College English departments. Of course once you hyphenate the word "literature" with such prefixes as "pop" and "chick" and "street" then the word "literature" is compromised. But this is a sign of the times, I guess. |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4513
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 8 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 02:40 pm: |
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TROY:
I never said Kola was not telling the truth. What I said was stop using me to support your positions. When you write: "Troy Johnson is well aware of Ms. Boof's friendship with people like Derrick Bell and Keith Boykin." that riles me because, this statement is false, NOT true, a lie.
___________________
Troy,
I can totally respect and comply with you
not wanting to be used to support that position, and I do apologize, but I also have to point up some FACTS...
Were you not interviewed in the same N.Y. TIMES article in which Derrick Bell stated that he had befriended me???????
YES YOU WERE---
---so Nafisa didn't knowingly or maliciously "lie" on you as you just "LIED" on her in your post if you want to get "technical" about it.
You also know damned well, as I have been emailing you for years about my relationships with Keith Boykin and Derrick Bell....that those are my friends.
Those relationships are QUITE PUBLIC.
In the dedications to all my books--they were mentioned right along with you, and in fact, Derrick Bell and I are a lot closer than you and I have ever been and that was WRITTEN in each book---and YOU READ THOSE DEDICATIONS.
Or were you lying when you told me that you did???
If these FACTS weren't true---then it stands to reason that Keith Boykin and Derrick Bell would have come forward and disputed this information.
Isn't that true?
I've been on Keith Boykin's web site as a "guest contributor" and a member just as I have this one.
Derrick Bell did a class on Kola Boof and has been a VERY VOCAL supporter of mine for years.
If you want to go by "Semantics"---then yes, you only have Kola's word to go by, because you've never spoken to these people, but COMMON SENSE and DEDUCTION alone would make your comments seem a little on the paranoid side--especially to state that you're "riled" by Nafisa's lies.
Why would she or I think we were lying? The fact is, we weren't.
So why is all that "technical bullshyt" necessary?
Your poster, MZURI, regularly "lies" on me---the Jamal Lewis situation being a perfect example.
ONLY "ABM" knows the truth about what I did with the Jamal situation (and I'm not proud of what I did, but I always want ABM to know the truth about me, good or bad, so I told him)---
---and then Jamal Lewis himself LATER went on the radio and backed me up (though he wasn't being honest)---but regardless of what my personal business was, MZURI constantly "lies" on this board about that situation and about me, because she has no KNOWLEDGE whatsoever of what took place in my personal life.
Cynique regularly "lies" on me with her unfounded claims that I'm a deceitful, delusioned this and that. WHERE HAVE YOU ASKED HER TO COME UP OFF HER PISSY MATTRESS AND PROVIDE PROOF OF HER CLAIMS???
The fact is...I'm no more of a "liar" than you or anyone else here, but the thing is you're not famous so nobody puts your judgemental self under a microscope "twisting" and "taking apart" your every comment to fit their own interpretations.
You claim that I lied on you when I jokingly told Mzuri that you and I chatted about her and reporting back that you didn't like her-----but I reiterate that was done KNOWING FULL WELL that you would read my comments, dispute them and "I had wrongfully thought"--that you would take it as the joke it was.
If I was deliberately "lying" on you---then why did I post it on YOUR BOARD, in plain daylight, where I knew you would come in and read the board???
I'm sure that I could take comments MADE BY YOU and twist them and label them "lies"....but that doesn't mean you maliciously set out to lie, even though something you said could "technically" turn out to be untrue.
I'm tired of the disrespect and the blanket insult--because I don't deserve it.
One thing you never seem to notice...are the "LIES" that are invented, pasted together and distributed ABOUT ME. There are whole platoons of "political-agenda" Media People who INVENT, DISTORT and distribute "lies" about me, but nobody asks them to prove a thing.
So if you know something about me that I don't...then please let me in on it, because you've been a total asshole towards me, you have really hurt me for no reason, I've always been led to believe that you accepted me for myself, and because I'm in the dark about your reasons....I need to be privvy to some of your righteous HONESTY.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9167
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 03:01 pm: |
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Now who's obsessed with whom, kola boof? All you have to do is suspect that Troy and Cynique are on the same page, and you crap on yourself. Why didn't you dictate your lame attempt at damage control to nafisa, the "publicist" who you are joined at the hip with??? Puleeze. You and your lying self remain the poster girl for manipulativeness. LMAO. |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4515
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 04:18 pm: |
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Urban_scribe,
If you know Gilda Squire and she's still at Amistad, please let her know about my Schomburg event and that I'd love to meet her.
She won't be bored, and I look forward to meeting you, too.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5179
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 8 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 05:28 pm: |
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Hey Nafola - Why don't you keep my name out of your stank mouth please. You got called out for being a liar, why drag me into that conversation? I'm sure everyone has got the drift about you and Jamal and Osama so I'm not going to trash up this thread with all of that. Just please refrain from using me to divert blame away from your own self(ves).
You are seriously lacking in the personal responsibilities department, and you need to work on filling those voids.
And BTW, Mzuri is personal best friends with Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, Carlos Slim, The Dalai Lama and Warren Buffet. Just ask anybody since everybody knows.
Do you see how retarded that sounds. Stop blowing your own horn about every little minor human accomplishment that you achieve. It's childish and lame.
And FYI, just because you KNOW somebody doesn't mean that you are FRIENDS. Get it. Probably not. So let me elaborate, friends are people whom you hold dear to your heart. It's not something that requires bragging about.
As to the topic at hand, I believe that true literature shall be judged by history. Not by the writers themselves.
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 693
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:56 pm: |
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Kola, if you and Nafisa "...totally respect and comply..." then we are cool.
Damn, what was the topic of this discussion...?
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4516
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:42 pm: |
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Troy,
I really admire you and what you think of me is
crucial to me.
I will try to handle "show biz" better and more
responsibly. I really am trying.
Please don't give up on me yet.
I am not any of what people claim I am, which
is why I'm coming to New York so that people
can meet and rake over me in person as a
flesh and blood woman--not an enigma.
I believe that people can "see the truth"
better than anything else.
I am a damaged, even sometimes "manipulative"
person, but underneath the theatrics,
I am the truth.
Kola
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6168
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 11:00 pm: |
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Troy said: "Damn, what was the topic of this discussion...?"
Tonya: Good. Now you know how the rest of us feel. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9172
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:56 am: |
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I don't find you enigmatic at all, kola. Like most psychopaths, you are charming, charismatic, narcisissistic, self-serving, and devious. And your statement that you represent "truth" is yet another example of your delusions of grandeur. Your "truth" is not everybody's "truth". And, of course, I say this because - I am jealous of you! Wooooooo, Yes, I want to be a "damaged" screwball just like you. Not! LMAO. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9420
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:18 am: |
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GREAT thread. Really. It's one for the annals of Thumper's Corner.
Kinda tailed off at the end, though.
PS: Hi Kola. |
Sabiana
Regular Poster
Username: Sabiana
Post Number: 134
Registered: 08-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 02:38 am: |
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"We are the world. We are the children."
Come on everyone, sing!
 |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4517
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:15 am: |
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ABM
Hi King!
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Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 12-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:51 pm: |
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Strange how every thread, no matter what the topic, automatically becomes corrupted and totally diverted away from said subject once Her Majesty Queen Kola makes her grand entry. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2123
Registered: 01-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:01 pm: |
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LOL @ Sabiana! I concur!
Hope all is well, Kola!
Schakspir, now you know we here @ aalbc/TC don't need much to get us off topic! LOL |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2124
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:07 pm: |
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Troy, I asked about the academic press thing, because I have read that this is a big controvery (debate? issue?) in academia. Some think the presses have just been churning out stuff that is not as high a quality as in years past. (And that more and more presses have been sprouting up...)
Partly, the reason is that for many fields, publishing in an academic press is required to get tenure and to advance further along the tenure track. So--some have alleged--presses have become the tool for academics' professional paths instead of places that truly publish groundbreaking research and fiction.
I do not have first hand knowledge of this trend--just stuff I have read in the Chronicle of Higher Ed and such, cuz my field is more dependent on publishing in journals. (But some of the same critiques eexist about the pressure to publish in journals, and the number and quality of articles and journals, etc.)
Anyway, I was wondering what your experience had been with academic presses, including the quality of the work coming from them as compared to commercial publishers. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9176
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 02:00 pm: |
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Shakspir says:"Strange how every thread, no matter what the topic, automatically becomes corrupted and totally diverted away from said subject once Her Majesty Queen Kola makes her grand entry."
Cynique snickers: "And, of course, kookla is making a pilgrimmage to the big apple, where New Yorkers are breathlessly waiting to be awed by an appearance that will reveal the reeeeeeal kola, pulsating with the truuuuuth that, - in between hawking her book and subjecting her fans to her "American-idol-reject" vocalizing, - will serve to elevate kookla to the grandiose postion of Mother Africa, a savior poised to lead the diaspora back to the past. Duh. Somebody tell this generic messiah that she's on the wrong continent. Um gawa. |
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