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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 698
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 09:37 pm: | 
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Marcus Garvey Park/Attempts at silencing the Drums in Harlem
for immediate release
Marcus Garvey Park Drummers,
July 2 2007
Sat June 30 two white police officers approached drummers at 5th Ave Marcus Garvey park, at about 7:30pm, stating that they received complaints about the drumming being to loud.
Two spokespeople, a man and woman, from the drummers organization told the officers, "We have been drumming every week until nine p.m. for the last thirty years ", They asked the officers why were they coming now when it was only 7:30pm. The officers responded that the residents at 2005 5th Ave (across the street) had complained that the drumming was too loud. The drummers said “We will continue until 9 pm”.
The policemen then called for reinforcement, when a car with a bar officer came , the drummers spokesperson continued along the lines of their right to drum, “it's our culture from Africa and the Caribbean”. One women drummer said about the white residents. "They have forced Black people out of Harlem to move here, they knew that we drum here every week, if they don't want to hear the drumming they should move.”
Still another police car came, this time with lights, and about nine policemen. With the drummers, women, children and men around eighty people, the drummers resisted their position and continued to drum, while an assigned spokesperson talked to police offers.
Across the street at Fifth Ave condo (124) the four white residents watched while the struggle continued. The drummers, dancers and crowd took out their cellphones and video cameras recording. After 25 minutes the police backed down and the drummers drummed louder as a protest and message to the white residents that they will fight for their African culture.
Please join us next Saturday July 7th at 4pm to help support the Marcus Garvey Park drummers in their struggle against the ongoing police harassment.
Statement written by
Johnnie Stevens
email: mayibuye2@yahoo.com
By Phone: 866-527-2545
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 699
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 10:22 pm: |
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This is part of the ongoing saga of Harlem in transition.
Marcus Garvey Park, home field of the Harlem Little League, is a community park a block from where I live.
The park has an amphitheater where you can watch live Jazz, Dance and any number of wonderful events. This past winter my kids and I snow boarded (actually used cooking trays) down a set of stairs so packed with snow it made a very nice steep hill. There is a community center that hosts readings and well as aerobics classes. There is also a large swimming pool. Just a very nice little park. It was not always that way…
I often take a break from my AALBC.com work to walk around the park, stretch my legs and just see what is happening. Sometimes I’d catch the drummers. I’d hear them, faintly at first, from a distance, but the sound draws you in. Once I get closer I feel transfixed by the rhythm, I love drums I used to think it was something very basic in my nature that drew me to the sound. I always think to my self I should bring my drum out one day and join the fun. But as always I’m too busy, so I just enjoy the sounds, however briefly. Beside I’d be too intimidated to join the fray. Those brothers look serious.
I noticed a white guy in the throng one day. He looked out of place, but he seemed to be accepted, though he seemed to lack the virtuosity of the brothers…
I however am VERY thankful that I do not live close enough to hear the drummers from my home. I know a woman (Black) who lives in an apartment on the park and she was she “can’t stand” those drummer’s and tries not to be home when they are playing. See, she has no choice and HAS to listen to the drummers.
Recently an apartment building was built in an empty lot across from where the drummers normally play. I always wondered it the drummers would be able to continue once people moved into the new apartment building. Now I know.
If the police allow the drummers to play until 7:30PM I think that is a gift. One of the things I noticed about my neighborhood is that too many folks show little respect for others with the noise they create. Now this is New York City, if one wants complete silence they should move to the country (though those crickets and things can make an awful racket too). Expecting uninterrupted silence is unrealistic.
However I think it is beyond obscene to demand that you be able to beat drums outside someone else’s window until 9PM at night. Race has nothing to do with it.
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4571
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 10:27 pm: |
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"female drummers?"
And playing with men, no less???
I bet women all over Africa would rejoice
to hear of that. 
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4572
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 10:31 pm: |
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You know it's funny....in Africa, the "drum" was the FOX NEWS and CNN of the villages, jungles, caravans and compounds (horns also in North Africa).
But the drum was hardly a "recreational" or "entertainment" tool until the last 50 to 60 years.
It used to be that when you heard drums---you got real quiet and listened for what the "announcement" was. Or you watched the faces of those who could tell you.
The drum was a religious altar.
It was to be taken very seriously and you had to be "ordained" to play it.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5188
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 10:59 pm: |
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The police probably backed off to avoid a riot. Don't street performers require a permit? Did the drummers have one? Doubt it since drumming until 9:00p.m. would be considered as disturbing the peace. The drummers should have been cited/arrested for not having a permit, disturbing the peace and failing to obey the commands of a law enforcement official. What were they thinking to argue with the po-po? This is the type of mess that gets Black people beat down and shot. If they were playing drums outside my window at 9:00p.m. I'd have been throwing some rocks at their ass.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6188
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 11:25 pm: |
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They've been playing their drums for THIRTY years.
Which means that anybody who moved there within the last 29 years KNEW what they were getting themselves into.
Black folk gets NO kind of respect. Damn shame.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5189
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 12:25 am: |
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Typical backwards ghetto mentality. Thirty years of disturbing the neighborhood doesn't mean they have the right to continue this practice. They don't have a permit to perform and the neighbors are entitled to peace and quiet during the nighttime hours.
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4841
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
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Typical backwards ghetto mentality. Thirty years of disturbing the neighborhood doesn't mean they have the right to continue this practice. They don't have a permit to perform and the neighbors are entitled to peace and quiet during the nighttime hours.
(Hmmm. Let me see. By this logic when we moved into a neighborhood where there was a packing house that had been there already for years, we were within our rights to ask them to shut down--
NOT! First come, first served, Dodo! I bet if they were white playing bagpipes you would be out there serving them lemonade.
For shame! For shame! I hope your CHILDREN are not reading your bootlicking posts. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5192
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:10 am: |
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ChrissiePoo - I don't know where you live but I reside in a residential neighborhood. It's quiet here and that's as it should be. Obviously if you moved into a commercial district next to a packing house, you can expect to hear some noise, but citizens do not have the right to disturb other citizens' peaceful existence. People have babies, they want to get some sleep, they want to read a book or do whatever without being bothered by excessive noise. The banging of the drums, no matter how delightful, is not appropriate during the night - and to be honest I don't want to hear that shit during the daytime.
And just so you know, I don't blast my stereo for the entire neighborhood to hear - either in my car or out my windows - and I want that same consideration from my neighbors. I don't care if they are playing my favorite tunes, I don't want to hear anyone else's noise.
Thank you for your kind attention and have a nice day.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9460
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:47 am: |
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Would I want some mofo drumming outside my window at +8:00 PM? No. Would I have purchased and moved into house or apartment KNOWING that such was occurring?
No.
Wonder what initiated and what is the history of the Harlem drumming. Why the drumming start? Famous drummers. Have some of the the drummers gone on to noteworthy performing and recording careers, etc.)? How and why has the drumming changed?
That might make for an interesting book and movie. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4846
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:57 am: |
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ChrissiePoo - I don't know where you live but I reside in a residential neighborhood.
(In TEXAS! Which means tornadoes, lynch mobs, wild Mexican fiestas and cattle stampedes--which I suppose you all demand be concluded by 6 pm-- |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 701
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 01:01 pm: |
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Interesting point about the history of drumming Kola.
I believe for the most part these folks are drumming as a diversion rather than communicating information.
Tonya again bringing race into this mix convolutes things. The drummers are on public property and do not have a "right" to beat on drums until 9PM -- even if they were all white people that have been there for 100 years.
The problem we have in Harlem and in our culture in general is that simple things like this are controversial.
Folks then inject race into the mix and it becomes and voilitle, emotional issue that can lead to a riot situation.
The police in Harlem have a difficult job.
30 year ago Marcus Garvey Park was a hell hole filled with drug addicts and whores fornicating with johns. The park was surrounded by abandoned buildings and emtry lots.
Then no one gave a crap what happended in the park. We were encouraged to stay out of it. Women would be robbed walking next to the park since the purse snatcher would easily disappear in the park. That is if the woman was not snatched into the park and raped before she was robbed...
The drummers, if they were smart would work out a compromise with the the residents.
In my opinion, the drummers are a positive contribution to the park and community. I would like to see them stay. But to demand that they be allowed to drum until 9PM, disturbing people who live in the community is outrageous.
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4851
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 02:13 pm: |
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Folks then inject race into the mix and it becomes and voilitle, emotional issue that can lead to a riot situation.
(Somebody pinch me. He didn't post that. Not a vital, viral upstanding upright young BLACK man who lives in Harlem in the year 2007. He didn't sound like a member of the white citizen's council in Mississippi in 1920, did he?
Somebody tell me it ain't so!
You're just trying to be controversial, aren't you, Troy? |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5196
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 03:16 pm: |
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Go pinch your damn self Poo. Troy is the voice of reason. But I can't believe he wrote "whores fornicating with johns" He needs to enroll in the Mzuri school of writing nasty. LOL!
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 703
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 04:54 pm: |
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Mzuri, we used to say "gettin busy", "doin' the do", and a ton of other things but fornicating seemed appropriate since it was one of the things we never called it when I was a kid.
Chris: yes, I made the post because it is controversial. However my true sentiments were as expressed. Keep in mind I live in Harlem in the 60's, 70's and part of the 80's too.
Listen I'll tell you what is RACIST. The fact that the city, police and no one else gave a SHIT about Harlem until white folks started moving in. It
The fact that as a teenager I could get a blow job and a joint in that same park and no one gave a damn (at least not enough to do anything about it). That is racist. No one gave a crap about us; and they way many of us relate to the world (or not) is a direct consequence of this neglect.
Today people wanna march so they can beat on some animal skins for an additional 90 minutes on a Saturday... Give me a freaking break.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1695
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 05:05 pm: |
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Listen I'll tell you what is RACIST. The fact that the city, police and no one else gave a SHIT about Harlem until white folks started moving in. It
Troy,
So if what you said is true then how can you that it's not true that the only reason they want to stop the drumming in the park today is because white have moved in and they don't like it? Apparently according to your post, if it were an all black issue, it would be ignored by the powers that be as in back in the day! Right? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6195
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 05:41 pm: |
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I didn't say that it's RACIST, Troy. I said it was disrespectful. I used to live in a neighborhood with a bunch of Irish people, and what's been said about them is true: they drink ALL day and night. And afterwards they'd come outside acting a FOOL. But I never called the cops on them because I realized shortly after I moved in that this was part of the culture in that particular neighborhood--it was their tradition, something they always do. Likewise my best friend lived in a neighborhood with a bunch of Hispanics who loved playing loud Spanish music. She never complained tho because she knew how it was when she moved in. Instead she ended up learning a little Spanish and eventually she started to enjoy, appreciate and buy the music. In other words, she INTEGRATED. In both situations we decided to get along. ...For me, out of respect for somebody’s culture, and for my girlfriend it was because she was the minority. I brought up race because it seems like, to some, Black people aren’t worthy of these considerations. |
Muchacho
First Time Poster
Username: Muchacho
Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 10:10 pm: |
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I agree with Tonya,
I am born and raised in Harlem. I see how the powers that be are making sure that the police accomodate the newcomers. Many of the same things that have been complained about before were never addressed with same the dilligence that they are being addressed with now.
I do agree that these people are supposed to try to integrate into our community instead of doing this "we're here now, and this is way things are going to be done now" stuff.
I agree with Tonya.I find it disrespectful that these people have no regard for the traditions of the people who have been here all of these years.
The people in the community already feel under siege.
The Marcus Garvey Drummers are making a statement.
Muchacho |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2391
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 10:32 pm: |
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Damn straight, Tonya. People move into our neighborhoods wanting to run shyt and tell US what to do. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5201
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 10:44 pm: |
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When the Marcus Garvey Drummers canvass the neighborhood and get EVERYONE'S consent to continue their drumbeats during the night, and when the Marcus Garvey Drummers get a PERMIT from the city authorizing them to perform/disturb the peace, then perhaps they will have legal grounds to do so. Until then, they are creating a nuisance, they do NOT have the right to disturb everyone in the neighborhood with the banging of the drums and they need to be quiet.
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Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2392
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 10:58 pm: |
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Please. Let's see this same mentality go over in Hispanic neighborhoods. Anyone living in TEXAS knows damn well they play that Mariachi music louder than any black would play their music.
(I actually like Mariachi music but there's just so much I can take of all of those horns.) |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 704
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:06 pm: |
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Muchacho, A_woman Tonya, I feel your arguments. Let me think on it a minute....
...There are some fundamental things I disagree with.
Consider the following: It is now illegal for "The Mister Softee (an ice cream truck) to play that God-forsaken jingle while it is parked.
I know the truck and it jingle was around when I was a kid so it has been around longer than the drummers have been drumming in the park. In fact the jingle brings back fond memories of my childhood. Hard to image I rarely had the 25 cents to buy an ice cream but when I did there was nothing better. Recently an ice cream truck, probably the same one from my childhood, judging by the quality of its sound system, parked in front of my window and blasted that stupid music while I was working on the web site and trying to listen to Cspan II. The racket was too loud for me to listen to the TV, and it seemed to drone on forever. I almost went down stairs but I kept telling myself he’ll be gone in a second.
The guy driving the truck was not Black. I don’t know but I’d guess most of the drivers and owners are not black. The city imposed a much stiffer penalty and rule against the ice cream trucks. Is it racist? Is the city imposing a rule which is attacking the culture and traditions of the city? Or is the city simply trying to cut down on noise pollution?
What about jack hammer operators, psycho car horn honkers and club owners where similar restrictions and laws have been laws have been put in place to reduce unnecessary noise.
There are and should be restrictions against unnecessary noise.
Now the drummers should not have been allowed to play into the evening. However they got away with it because few cared about the residents. It was a time when there were virtually no property owners, NY City was in financial straights. The police had their hands full drawing chalk outlines on the sidewalks.
You see the elderly Black lady who lives across the street in a red brick build probably stopped complaining 20 years ago. No one cared about her sanity as she was forced to listen to the drumming for hours on end, year after year…
Bottom line one can argue that is was racist when Po-Po did not enforce the law when it was a community of poor Black people and one can also argue that it is racist that Five-O are enforcing the law only because white property owners are complaining.
Either way, it makes no difference; people should not be allowed to beat drums in front of someone else’s window into the night – period. I’m sorry this is not obvious.
There are many options. The drummers can get a permit and play in the band shell a short walk away and they can end at a reasonable hour LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 706
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 09, 2007 - 11:12 pm: |
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Muchacho I just noticed you are at post #9 -- welcome to the baords!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9463
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:09 am: |
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Troy,
Thank the Lawdy the good WHITE foks move into Harlem to straighten out doze noisy niggras!! |
A_womon
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Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1696
Registered: 05-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 02:14 am: |
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Bottom line one can argue that is was racist when Po-Po did not enforce the law when it was a community of poor Black people and one can also argue that it is racist that Five-O are enforcing the law only because white property owners are complaining.
And this is at the core of my argument. Whether or not the noise is a nuisance isn't really the issue. The issue is if it was a nuisance before the whites moved in, it wasn't addressed. And to say that it doesn't matter one way or the other why the this "noise nuisance" suddenly matters after 30 years is to validate and reinforce white's thinking that complaints are only valid when one them is involved. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 708
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:17 pm: |
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A_woman I think you are still combining two unrelated issues.
I’m trying to separate the noise from problem from the racism problem. Perhaps to two issues can not be separated; if not, this poses an interesting dilemma: 20 years ago when the police did not stop the drummers it was racist. Today they stop the drummers and it is… well, racist.
I heard a Brother at a recent community board meeting take NY State Senator Bill Perkins to task about the very same park. Homeboy was complaining that he could not even bring his kids to the park because of homeless people bathing in the sprinkler in the playground. I found his perspective interesting because my man had no idea how much better the park is today than it was just a few years ago…
If a white man made the same statement some of y’all would call him racist. Oh the shame! white people are so evil they won’t even allow a poor homeless man to clean himself in a children’s playground. This type of thinking is killing us because it fails to address the real problems.
Bums should not be allowed to shower in a sprinkler and drummers should not be allowed to beat drums until 9PM if they are disturbing local residents.
Some behavior is not racist, but just ordinary people trying to get a little piece and quite in their own homes.
ABM, all jokes aside, it is property owners Black and white that is motivating the positive changes we seeing in the neighborhood.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9473
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
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Troy,
There weren't any Black property owners in Harlem when the drumming started THIRTY years ago? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9228
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 02:28 pm: |
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Just for the sake of argument, is racism synonymous with injustice? e.g. If a white person moves into an apartment owned by a black person, therefore relinqushing any power that he has over that black person, and this white person disturbs the peace and annoys all of the black tenants and the black owner exerts his power to not renew the white person's lease even though black tenants have harassed the white tenant about his behavior, then the action of the black landlord could be an example of "situational racism" but, in the context of making a value judgment, this example of racism could be justified because it served the greater good.
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4858
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 02:33 pm: |
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The fact that as a teenager I could get a blow job and a joint in that same park and no one gave a damn (at least not enough to do anything about it). That is racist. No one gave a crap about us; and they way many of us relate to the world (or not) is a direct consequence of this neglect.
(You couldn't get a blow job anywhere else in New York without anybody giving a damn? Puh-leeze! I may be from Missouri but I didn't just get off the boat. You are getting carried away.
Today people wanna march so they can beat on some animal skins for an additional 90 minutes on a Saturday... Give me a freaking break.
(MOVE. They were there first) |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4859
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 02:35 pm: |
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ABM, all jokes aside, it is property owners Black and white that is motivating the positive changes we seeing in the neighborhood
(When they finally show their true colors ie when they run your black a** out you'll figure out it wasn't about the drumming after all.
Boy, MIT has messed up more Negroe's minds than crack cocaine. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4861
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 02:45 pm: |
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Face it, Troy. You can't stand living around black people anymore. You want them to act white. If they had a string quartet and were playing Brahms you wouldn't protest a peep.
It's not your fault. Happens to black folks especially when they attend those so called elite white institutions. I been to a few. It took a few years to get used to being around real Negroes again.
Move. Move around some white folks--though not the type I was living around because they are worse than the blacks. Or maybe some more elite Negroes--but then again they sometimes have their streetish relatives visit and there is trouble.
Move around some white folks. Some old ones. You can have all the peace you want.
I can see it now--after a few months, they go outside and find you in the yard drumming.
Haw haw haw |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5211
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 03:02 pm: |
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Could you please just ban him for being an idiot. Thank you. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1697
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 03:32 pm: |
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Troy, I think you are skirting the real issue, which is, this has been going on for thirty years and it is only a problem NOW. So you haven't adequately explained why you think the two issues are separate.
Now I think Cynique more adequately addressed the issue with this statement:
"...this example of racism could be justified because it served the greater good."
Now if you want to say, Troy, that we should swallow the racism to solve what appears to have become the larger problem--the noise--then I will buy your argument. But if you try to tell me that the issues are separate, you haven't provided enough evidence to support that argument. But let's take race out of the picture for the moment.
Where I live, there is a very nice housing complex that is modeled on florida condos and they are stacked above and surrounded by a (once)busy mall that includes a movie theater and a club that plays reggae on the green (outdoors) beginning at about 8pm in good weather and goes until the club closes at about 2 am every Friday and Saturday night. Now folks are warned of this when they move in, but the management still gets complaints from the tenants about the noise. So I'm in agreement with Chris. Why would you move into a place where noise is a factor, a normal course of business for some, and then ask those who occupied the space first to move????
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6202
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 08:13 pm: |
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My, my...
...this is a very interesting thread. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 486
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 08:56 pm: |
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Y'know, my grandfather was born in Harlem in 1909. He told me a story about how in the 20's he and his brother used to stand on the corner, a little downtown from 125th Street, what's now known as "Spanish Harlem," (which my grandfather always said was a bullshit misnomer, btw). They would look from their corner to 125th Street and wonder: Will Black people (Coloreds) ever live up there?
Today, that area is overwhelmingly Black. But this discussion calls to mind something my grandfather said a few years before he passed away in 1998: In another 50 years, Harlem's gonna be mostly White.
TJ, I know Harlem pretty well; I'm sure you know it better, of course. Have you really, REALLY noticed all the development that's been undertaken in Harlem since 1995? You see all the new businesses springing up in Harlem: The Body Shop, Starbucks, Sephora, Lush, Marshall's, Banana Republic - businesses that are typically patronized by Whites. Harlem is becoming "trendy." The rents in Harlem (commercial and residential) are skyrocketing. Only time will tell, but I think my grandfather's words may prove true. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 710
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:25 pm: |
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ABM, NY City owned the vast majority of the property in Harlem. Visit this page to see what the building I purchased look like 5 just over 5 years ago.
http://aalbc.com/family/thenext.htm
There were many buildings on my block like the one pictured. The city owned this building, which was abandoned for many years, before I purchased it.
Urban_scribe I wish I knew your grandfather. I'm sure he could add some perspective.. He witnessed the Harlem Renaissance, and the Apollo in its heyday.
When my building was new a Jewish doctor owned it. Interesting enough, most of the brownstones on my block were owned by Jewish Doctors. I know this because I have a directory from 1908 around the time your grandfather was born. I grew up in Spanish Harlem.
Urban, of course I see the changes, they are happening remarkably fast. If you look at the streets bounded by 116th on the south, Lenox Ave on the west, 125th on the north and Madison Ave on the east. These boundaries include the Drummer’s Park and my home. This will absolutely be majority white area not in 50 years, but 5 years. The only thing that will slow this is a terrorist attack or an riot. I’ve already painted my “Black Owned Home” sign. (Urban, don’t you own me an email?).
Chrishayden if it is any consolation to you, no I may not be in Harlem in another 5 years. Maybe I’ll move to Charlotte or Atlanta like so many other my others…
Chrishayden I image you were one of the dudes you made fun of guys who did well in school, or who were in some way different from you or who did not conform to your narrow, BETized, version of Blackness.
Look most of my Black friends who can afford to live in Harlem, and stayed in the area, brought property in Montclair NJ or some other similar suburb. Whites are simply choosing to move here in greater numbers than Blacks.
We will lose Harlem primarily because we never really owned it in the first place. Besides most Blacks who can afford to buy in Harlem, buy else where, mostly because of the nonsense that kicked off this conversation.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1704
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:47 pm: |
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TROY! UNH UNH HOW you just gone lee me hangin like this??? How you gone play me like a WII? I seed your name and I rushed over to this thread and you STRAIGHT ignored my post. I see how it is. My feelings is huuuuuuurt! Im gone just disappear for a while... Peace out my nig...ummmmmmm later for you color...uh ruh, shoot! BYE! HAHAHAHAA! P2... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9231
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:52 pm: |
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This gentrification is starting to occur all over America where whites, weary of the isolation and long commutes from the suburban boon docks, are taking back the cities. In Chicago, they torn down all the projects because they were located on what was turning out to be prime real estate. Now town houses and lofts and trendy shopping districts are springing up in their place. |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2402
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 11:29 pm: |
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Nope......
whites moved out to the suburbs when blacks could legally live anywhere in the city they wanted to. Blacks started moving up and decided the suburbs looked nice, so they moved there, too. Now that blacks living in the suburbs is so commonplace, whites decide they don't like it there much anymore.
Except for cities like Gulfport and Jackson, MS, and where blacks typically DON'T move out to the suburbs.....and whites typically DON'T move into the city. Trust me, if enough Jacksonian blacks decide to move to the suburbs.....white people will want back in the city. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 488
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 11:58 pm: |
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Off topic
Urban, don't you own me an email?
TJ, We got our wires crossed. I've been waiting on YOU to email me. I know your schedule is as crazy as mine, so I figured you'd get around to it at your earliest convenience.
Anyway, I know you've posted your email on this forum numerous times, but I can't find it and I didn't save the message you sent the forum that time when you needed everyone to confirm their email address. So, please post your email addy again and I should hit you up no later than Friday. K? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6206
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 12:02 am: |
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BETized, version of Blackness
I TOTALLY disagree with your posts but I like this statement: BETized version of Blackness. Talk about nig.gers that can't get shit right. Man! Check out the BET thread! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9235
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 12:12 am: |
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Since you don't live around Chicago, renatata, then don't talk what you don't know. The young upscale whites are moving back to this city from their all-white suburbs because they like the cosomopolitan ambience that a big urban metropolis like it offers. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6213
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 04:55 am: |
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To be perfectly clear tho, I do NOT in any way think of the Blk people in Harlem as BETized versions of Black folks...or anything like that. I simply thought that one line was on the nail with regard to BET.
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Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2403
Registered: 08-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 08:20 am: |
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I know Atlanta, Jackson, Gulfport, Mobile, Crystal Springs, Hazlehurst, and a couple of other towns. White people move to the city....when the blacks move to the suburbs. In Atlanta, they're moving mostly to areas that USED TO BE predominantly black, but blacks left nearly EN MASSE (like Grant Park) to go to the suburbs. People from Cobb County (which used to be considered a white area) are scrambling to get intown (now that Cobb is becoming more black and hispanic).
I've visited (but haven't lived in) Chicago before. My uncle lived in a one bedroom apartment downtown that cost over 500.00 and had no kitchen(this was 18 years ago). Black people aren't scrambling to stay in overpriced downtown housing. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9236
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 10:16 am: |
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In other words, renatata, know about the demographics of some towns in the South. And I said nothing about black people in Chicago scrambling to stay in down town housing. I said that poor blacks were being displaced because the projets were being torn down and being replaced with upscale housing for the influx of whites who are coming back to the city for reasons having nothing to do with black people. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5219
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 10:33 am: |
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She's much smarter than we give her credit for. She also knows how music is played in the entire state of Texas.
Quote from ReTinTin: Anyone living in TEXAS knows damn well they play that Mariachi music louder than any black would play their music.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 9238
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 10:44 am: |
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Yep, and her conversation just feeds on itself; the more she talks, the less she says which is why I usually bypass her vapid posts. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 712
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 01:33 pm: |
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Urban_scribe I emailed you (but got no response). You may email me at troy@aalbc.com
A_womon, sorry sis did not mean to ignore you. Chris' posts completely distracted me...
To your point: One thing that you and Chris completely missed is that there were Black people, living on the Drummer's Park BEFORE the drummers got started. However those Black folks were ignored. Again I know at least one Black people who hated the drummers and was living in her apartment before the drummers decided they had a “right” to beat on drums until 9PM regardless of you they disturbed.
Therefore the argument that the drummers were drumming before the white people put up a fuss is flawed; unless of course you are a racist and are not considering the complaints of the Black folks.
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4618
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 02:03 pm: |
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Troy,
Can I please steal this for my new book "Virgins"?
BETized version of Blackness
I'd like to have a character say that in the book,
as it's slightly better than what I had him saying before. He's the hero of the book, Steven Frame.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1707
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 04:00 pm: |
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You're forgiven, Troy! Now alas big brother, (PLAY BIG BROTHER, so don't nobody go emailing Troy talkin bout you didn't know we was related) As I was saying---alas, big brother I fear that our thoughts on this subject are about as far apart as the east is from the west and never the twain shall meet. *sigh* But never fear, I still loves you--I shole do! Watta! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9485
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 04:41 pm: |
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Troy,
How and why did the NYC come to owning all that property in Harlem prior to the recent yuppie/buppie takeover (no offense)?
What you'll probably find behind that is a lot of racist backroom political dealing, bank redlining, police and Mafia intimidation, etc. that made it dayam near IMPOSSIBLE for decent Black foks of the 60's - 80's to have and maintain a community, thus leading to the eventual neglect and squalor (and $5 crackhead blowjobs) you allude to. |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2405
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 06:29 pm: |
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Mzuri, Mexicans are a small minority in Georgia, and walking up the street here can make a person go crazy from all that mariachi music, as loud as they blare it. Ain't no way in hell they're quieting it down in Texas. And anyone who would believe they do is probably dumb enough to date you. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 713
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 07:00 pm: |
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"BETized version of Blackness" wow, you mean I coined a phrase! I Googled BETized -- no hits. You heard it here 1st folks :-). Sure, use it Kola.
A_woman (smile). I thought I posed a rational and logical argument. I have learned however that this is a religious issue, one where evidence, examples, and facts mean nothing. Probably the only way it would make sense to you if you lived it.
The long and short of it is that Black people left Harlem for good reason. I could not wait to get out myself. The problems are/were enormous here (dirty streets, poor schools, gangs, drugs, a lack of decent stores, no banks, etc, etc). Of course all of this was attributed to racism. I believe racism did indeed play a part, but it not th whole story.
Black people don¡¦t want crime in the hood and cried racism when the city seemingly did nothing to stem the crime epidemic. So the city fights crime with tougher laws and enforcement and crime goes down as a result. People forget what it was like before the tougher enforcement then start complaining that the police are too tough and say it is, you guessed it -- racist.
In the last 5 years I¡¦ve gotten two citations from sanitation for trash in front of my place. One for $300 and another for $100. I did not place the trash there someone else did. Obviously someone who thought it was there ¡§right¡¨ to simply throw something on the ground for some I pick up. I pick up in front of my place before I go to work and when I get home. Is it racist that city gives me citations, which I can even reasonably fight? I could claim racism. That is easy to do. But also know how dirty the street used to be, so I just eat the ticket and consider it just another tax for living the Harlem¡K
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Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2410
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 08:08 pm: |
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Well, Troy, you could look at it from another point of view:
In ghettos and the worst neighborhoods in the south, you will typically find a school in the MIDDLE of the neighborhood, and a few asian owned stores in the MIDDLE of the neighborhood......And a big fence around the outside of the neighborhood. It's like they fence you in and give you things to keep you out of their neighborhoods and just hope you don't venture beyond that fence.
And to be fair, my husband lived in New York for a few years before we met, and he said that all of New York is nasty....that you can live in the richest neighborhood and still have rats in your home and trash on the street.
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Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 4629
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 08:58 pm: |
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Haha! Troy.
There's going to be a notation in
the ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS that thanks
Troy Johnson for coining the
phrase "BETized version of blackness"
...and "lending" it to me
so people can say...that darn
Kola is so clever!!
**There's also an "interview" portion
at the back of the book where BUFFIE THE BODY
is going to interview me and I'm going
to mention you wrote that line for me.
Thanks, King.
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Muchacho
First Time Poster
Username: Muchacho
Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 10:53 pm: |
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Troy thanks for the welcome |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 715
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 11:42 pm: |
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Renata, just so that you know. I believe that New York City is, today, one of the world's great cities. Harlem is has the potential to be one of the best neighborhoods in this city.
Harlem reaching it's potential will not come without stress and growing pains. There is always a struggle to get the the next level. But this is why I choose to live here (despite the funky drummers).
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Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1120
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 12:37 pm: |
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In my opinion, Harlem is the best neighborhood in the city, precisely because all the other phony "sophisticated" midtown monkeys--or Williamsburg "hipsters" haven't competely ruined it, like they've ruined the East Village, West Side, Upper West Side, Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Greenwich Village, etc., etc. Unfortunately, the process of ruination has begun, as more and more whites are moving in (this is a first-hand observation) and the rents are climbing through the roof. When I searched for an apartment along Striver's Row in the late 1990s, you could get one for 550 a month. Now it's three or four times that.
If I could afford it, however, I would get a Striver's Row brownstone for myself. I feel a lot more at ease in this part of Harlem than virtually anywhere else in the city. |
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