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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2294
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 03:12 am: | 
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Wow! Imagine that -getting paid to do what you're supposed to do! Have times changed or is it me?
NYC poor to get cash for good behavior
By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jun 19, 12:39 AM ET
Poor residents will be rewarded for good behavior — like $300 for doing well on school tests, $150 for holding a job and $200 for visiting the doctor — under an experimental anti-poverty program that city officials detailed Monday.
The rewards have been used in other countries, including Brazil and Mexico, and have drawn widespread praise for changing behavior among the poor. Mayor Michael Bloomberg traveled to Mexico this spring to study the healthy lifestyle payments, also known as conditional cash transfers.
In New York, the two-year pilot program with about 14,000 participants will use private funds Bloomberg has raised because he did not want to spend government money on something that is highly experimental. More than $43 million has been raised toward the $53 million goal, Deputy Mayor Linda Gibbs said.
The theory behind cash rewards is that poor people are trapped in a cycle of repeated setbacks that keep them from climbing out of poverty. A person who doesn't keep up with his vaccinations and doctor's visits, for example, may get sick more often and struggle to stay employed.
Bloomberg, a billionaire Republican, said he believes paying people in such circumstances to make good decisions could help break those patterns. The program "gives New Yorkers in poverty a financial incentive to look ahead and make decisions that will improve their prospects for the future," he said in a statement.
But some critics have raised questions about cash reward programs, saying they promote the misguided idea that poor people could be successful if they just made better choices.
"It just reinforces the impression that if everybody would just work hard enough and change their personal behavior we could solve poverty in this country, and that's not reflected in the facts," said Margy Waller, co-founder of Inclusion, a research and policy group in Washington.
Waller, who served as a domestic policy adviser in the Clinton administration, said it would be more effective to focus on labor issues, such as making sure wage laws are enforced and improving benefits for working people.
Among the possible rewards in New York's program are $25 for attending parent-teacher conferences, $25 per month for a child who maintains a 95 percent school attendance record, $400 for graduating high school, $100 for each family member who sees the dentist every six months and $150 a month for adults who work full time.
The World Bank model for cash reward programs in other countries is that the value of the incentive should equal about a third of a household's income to have any lasting influence on changing behavior. The average amount that a family or adult can earn through the rewards each year is about $3,000 to $6,000; a family of three living in poverty earns about $17,000 a year.
Recipients, who are being selected this summer before the program begins in the fall, will be able to have the money deposited directly into their bank accounts. If they don't have accounts, they can get cards that are like debit cards but cannot be overdrawn.
The city is asking the federal government to excuse the payments from being taxed. Participants will be divided into three smaller programs that have different criteria and awards: one for about 2,550 families, one for 2,400 single adults and another for 9,000 children in grades 4 to 7.
To measure the effectiveness of the rewards, control groups of similar size will not be paid but will be studied by participating in regular surveys and reviews from an outside social policy research group, Gibbs said. The control participants
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9393
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 07:46 am: |
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Does seem sad you have to PAY mofos for doing sh*t they should already know to do. But I'd rather give some neglected kid, say, a $1,000 per year to stay out of trouble if it'll save me +$40,000/year to catch, try and lock his a$$ up. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 5003
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 07:54 am: |
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I think it's a nice idea but it's just a temporary fix. Poor people need to have legitimate opportunities. The people need good-paying jobs with health insurance and benefits, not handouts. Besides, giving a poor person $300 - yes, it's a nice little chunk of change they can go out and buy groceries or something - but in the end it's not enough to really make a difference. It's just enough to keep them struggling along. Most people want to work and acquire things on their own, they just need the opportunity to do so.
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 664
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 09:50 am: |
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This is an interesting experiment. I'm glad it is not being financed with public funds (though I'm not really buying that).
I see this policy flawed for to reasons. For a number of reasons the biggest is that, while I'm sure it will change the behavior of many people the motivations are all wrong.
I really would like to see Margy Waller’s “facts” which show that “…everybody would just work hard enough and change their personal behavior we could solve poverty in this country” is not true. Does she really believe that any healthy person in this country can not provide a life for themselves in this country and set their children up on a better trajectory?
Look it might require relocating, learning a skill, working two jobs, going to school, but the fact of the matter most people I know who sit around complaining what they do have do get it because they are sitting around complaining. People expect shit to happen overnight. They see someone else with something but they don’t see the hard work and sacrifice that that person put in to get what they got. But I digress…
Look, even a crack head will show up to their kid’s PTA conference to collect $25 bucks; consider the alternative methods of earning this money. Does that mean the crackhead will pay attention, during the meeting? And before you go there, I’m not saying that all people in poverty are crack heads.
What I am saying is that a person, in New York City, living in poverty, is not in poverty because they did not go to the PTA conference and going will not bring them out of poverty.
Similarly, giving a kid money to go to school changes the motivation for attending school. Now kids will given a financial incentive to go to school. The incentive of bettering oneself will go completely out of the window. What happens when the financial incentive stops?
Ok lets say now that the poor kid goes to school (with he may be doing anyway). But if the school has the same problems that many NYC public schools have giving the kid $25 a month will make no difference.
What about the other kids in a similar situation who don’t get the money.
Bloomberg is a billionaire, but he is not a Republican.
It just seems to me there is a better way to use $53 Mil to help these families.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8903
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 11:05 am: |
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I also challenge the old standby argument of these "bleeding hearts" who earn their living ministering to the poor and thus have a vested interest in rejecting the idea that poverty cannot be relieved by able-bodied people changing their lifestyles. There's no way anyone can tell me that a female who finishes school and doesn't tie herself down with a lot of fatherless children doesn't greatly improve her chances of escaping the dead-end welfare cycle. I think young people should be rewarded for staying in school by providing them with tuition for colleges or trade schools. Yes, I know inner-city schools leave something to be desired, but when you have classes full of students who want to learn, you change the dynamic of the school, and raise the level of achievement because these students will make the most of what is available to them. This is not the results of a study but what my teacher friends have observed. And a student's motivation to learn is related to their home lives, which of course are much more stabilized if a father heads up the family. (And a 2-parent family is the result of people making better decisions in their lives.) |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4723
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:50 pm: |
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Yes, I know inner-city schools leave something to be desired, but when you have classes full of students who want to learn, you change the dynamic of the school, and raise the level of achievement because these students will make the most of what is available to them
(Cannot you finally cut the bullshit? These people are doomed. They have to lose.
In order to have winners you have to have losers. You cannot have a system like ours without having large numbers of losers so the winners look good.
Like the lottery. Or a casino.
Now you will say it doesn't have to be like that and I will ask you to show me some place, now and throughout history where it has been different. I will not hold my breath.
Of course you could give up your place at the trough to some unfortunate. Fat chance.
I like to read nonsense like Cynique when I get to thinking that my time is one day coming.
When I die at least I won't have to listen to bullshit like that anymore.
Makes a man feel GOOD in the morning. |
Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1972
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:56 pm: |
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I think the concept is repsectable, but I think it will fail to solve the many underlying issues that cause poverty. I think it's motivation for the parent/parents to get money in their pocket but not necessarily money that will directly benefit their children.
Though this may not be a popular idea, I would like to a see a program implemented that would pay a flat fee to "poor residents" (male and female) who are willing to have a vasectomy or tubal ligation. And because I don't see their program as one that will work in the long run, I think that voluntary sterilization may help to prevent potential problems before they even start, epsecially when an individual or couple/family already have more children than they can financially handle.
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Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2101
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 01:51 pm: |
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The idea is not popular for good reason, as we all know who it would disproportionately impact. I hope such a program is never implemented. Children constitute hope for the future for people--rich, poor, or in between. Think about this: if such incentives for "voluntary" sterilization were available throughout history, AALBC/TC would be a pretty quiet place as most of us (and our parents and grandparents) would never have been born. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8918
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 02:47 pm: |
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Rant on, chrishayden. It's not like I write to make you feel comfortable. In fact, one of my goals is to shake you up by saying what you can't bear to hear because it galls you so much. In my post, I implied that those who minister to the poor need them in order to perpetuate a need for their services. But scoffing at and dismissing the idea that people can't improve their lot by making better decisions about their future is counter-productive |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8919
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 02:56 pm: |
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Well, Yvette, the whole sterilization bugaboo implicit with the idea of an empty world where WE wouldn't exist is a specious argument. tsk-tsk. Here's my entry into the realm of being specious: If you believe like I do, when a soul misses one body, it finds another. The reason we are in such a crisis state now is because a surplus supply of bodies are being made available for amoral renegade souls. LMAO.  |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2102
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 03:10 pm: |
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an empty world where WE wouldn't exist
My point was not that the world would be "empty." My point is that (I am assuming) many of us here on this board are descendants of folks who hadn't the financial means to "handle" children/more children. People have always had children they couldn't "afford" or were not "ready" for. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 03:15 pm: |
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Put one more way: a lot of this kind of talk reminds me of folks who benefitted from various kinds of "affirmative action" (e.g., race-based, legacy admissions, GI bills, etc) who now want to yank the opportunity rug up from those who are coming after them. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8921
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 05:32 pm: |
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Well, as chrishayden opined and what I have frequentedly contended, is that there will always be the "haves" and the "have-nots". The System helps those who help themselves, and people help themselves by endeavoring to make choices that will improve their chances of thriving in a cruel world. Compassion and charity are honorable pursuits, but judging from the way things are, in the long run they don't produce any more significant results than apathetic pragmatism. And I will repeat that my philosphy of life espouses the belief that our essence would've eventually become manifest; we would've just had to wait for a physical body to inhabit. Or is the idea of not getting here something I dwell on since what is so awesome about being here as opposed to being "there"??? Who knows and who can prove me wrong? LOL |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 665
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 09:21 pm: |
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Hey Chris,
Here is some proof that there does not have to be winners and loosers. The proof was actually presented in a movie called a A Beautiful Mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JDoQb6A2YI (it took me less that a minute to find this clip. The net never ceases to amaze me).
Basically if we do what is best for ourselves and the group everyone one can win.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5896
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 04:14 am: |
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I can't believe some of you people are educated. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2463
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 07:16 am: |
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Yvettep:
Right. It is well documented how whites veterans of WWII and whites in general benefited from FHA [loans] programs from the GI Bills, and how the federal government excluded blacks [redlining], provided government subsidies for industries moving into these white neighborhood. Thus, that creates property and wealth, and jobs, and county or municipal services to the exclusion of black folk....
This is why it is dangerous when white people pat themselves on the back as if they never received "affirmative action" or when they cry reverse racism, and we do not correct them.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8923
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 11:03 am: |
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Wow! Thanks guys for telling us about the existence of white privilege which is an extension of white racism. LOL
And, there's Tonya. Speaking in riddles again. Does she believe that what she believes is more believable than what people who she believed were educated believe. Huh? Huh? |
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