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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5813
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 03:11 am: | 
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Condi: Her father's daughter
Opinion
Books
By Stebbins Jefferson
Saturday, June 16, 2007
Twice As Good: Condoleezza Rice and Her Path to Power, by Marcus Mabry of Newsweek, provides insights into the professional and private life of a powerful, polarizing woman. Yet the most intriguing personality in the book is not Condoleezza Rice but her father, preacher and educator John Wesley Rice.
Mr. Mabry reminds us that for the most part, the upper-middle class and black professionals preferred to carve out a bubble of freedom within the boundaries of segregation rather than agitate to overthrow the system. John Wesley Rice subscribed to that premise. Living in the then-elite black enclave of Titusville on the outskirts of Birmingham, Ala., he created a kind of discrimination-free sanctuary for his only child.
Rather than submit Condoleezza to the discrimination that other blacks routinely endured, he chose to block it from her view. When the segregated state fair came to Birmingham, he would drive "5 miles out of the way" to keep her from seeing the soaring Ferris wheel. For such an experience, he took her to Coney Island in New York City. He did not involve her in protest demonstrations or otherwise permit her to participate in the civil rights movement. With his wife, Angelena Ray Rice, he set out to create a highly educated, well-mannered, perfect child, who as an adult would conduct herself in a dignified manner at all times.
Like most upper-class African-Americans of the pre-civil rights era, the Rev. Rice believed that individual achievement is the ultimate empowerment. As he saw it, "segregation would collapse of its own weight." Hence, he worked to insulate his daughter from the limitations imposed by racial discrimination. At considerable expense, he involved her in constructive activities, such as music and ice skating. These were opportunities rarely experienced by other African-American children.
Though the Rev. Rice rarely allowed his "little star" to socialize with other children, he worked tirelessly to help other black youngsters. As pastor of the Presbyterian church, he formed a youth group that drew youngsters from all over the city. Despite objections from his congregation, he even welcomed youngsters from a public housing project.
Though he allowed dancing and discussions of popular culture, he advised youngsters not to join civil rights demonstrations, telling them: "There's a better way. I want you to fight with your minds." He maintained that stance even as domestic terrorists dynamited black homes, businesses and, in September 1963, the 16th Street Baptist Church, killing four little girls, including Denise McNair, Condoleezza's kindergarten classmate.
In 1968, the Rev. Rice moved his family to Tuscaloosa, where he became dean of students at Stillman College. He went on to become vice chancellor and the first African-American administrator at the University of Denver. Having been hired because he "was socially conscious but not radical," he learned early on to establish covert relationships with the local black community. By working both sides of the color divide, he brought significant change to a very white, highly privileged university.
To educate white students as well as blacks, the Rev. Rice created the course "The Black Experience in America," which brought in such African-American speakers as Quincy Jones, Fannie Lou Hamer and Louis Farrakhan. But when Chancellor Maurice Mitchell, who had hired the Rev. Rice, left the university, his protégé was forced out and his position eliminated. Angelena having died in 1985, the Rev. Rice moved to California to be near his beloved daughter, then provost at Stanford. He had advised her to become a Republican because "they look after their own."
In John Rice, Mr. Mabry has profiled all the black fathers who during segregation sought to advance their children by holding them above the fray. Such fathers were convinced that they could shield their own from racial prejudice that could limit ambition and achievement by making them twice as good as those who would deny them opportunities for advancement.
The irony is that self-imposed paternal classism has made possible extraordinary individual advancement but left behind most of the masses that stormed the racial barricades to gain blacks' civil rights and freedom.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/opinion/epaper/2007/06/16/a10a_jeff ersoncol_0616.html |
Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2436
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 05:55 am: |
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Good post. I have been making this point for a long time...that class differences in the black community are not new, and that, as was the case with Rev. Rice, some folk in the black middle-class for a long time had been promulgating the rhetoric during segregation that Cosby and others are promoting now, in the post-civil rights era. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4692
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 10:18 am: |
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Her Daddy was a sad case--beat down. Driving 5 miles out of the way because he didn't have the GUTS to explain to his daughter what was up.
Segregation will collapse of its own weight--well it didn't and then screwed up invertebrates like his daughter rushed to take advantage of the sacrifices made from those who beat it down.
Don't hunger for another Dr. King--you will not have one because he or she has seen that his sacrifices only serve to create a war criminal.
It totally explains her. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8857
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 12:07 pm: |
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There is, indeed, nothing new about the black middleclass. Chicago had a very distinct one that dated back to the early 1920s and, in the pecking order, after doctors and lawyers and teachers and preachers were the civil service workers many of who were college graduates who took tests to qualify for jobs, - government positions for which many of those who passed these tests were hired, especially within the ranks of the postal system. In the railroad industry, dining car waiters and pullman porters were also considered prestiege jobs back in those days. These people lived well within their own little enclaves and looked down the noses at the riff raff. And, of course, they raised their children to do their best within the confines of a segregated society They often formed their own businesses also. Chicago is the home of the first black life insurance company and The Chicago Defender, a black owned newspaper which had a national readership. Like gravitates toward like and those with similar mind-sets strove for common goals, and of course the color caste system played a part in this classism. Is there anything unusal about this social phenomenon? After all, America is not a communistic society. The noteworthy thing about these people was that they didn't really want to be white. They just wanted to be prominent within their own little circles; big fish in a little pond. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9383
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 06:44 am: |
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Chris,
Indeed.
Well. Think of the bright side: It doesn't appear likely that Condi herself will ever raise children. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2269
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 12:30 pm: |
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"Like gravitates toward like and those with similar mind-sets strove for common goals, and of course the color caste system played a part in this classism. Is there anything unusal about this social phenomenon? After all, America is not a communistic society. The noteworthy thing about these people was that they didn't really want to be white. They just wanted to be prominent within their own little circles; big fish in a little pond."
Your point is on point Ms. Cynique. But Negroes enjoy carping about anyone who rises above their whining and self defeating failures. Petty jealousy and demonizing are common tools they employ to explain the successes of others. It's just they way they are.....
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4700
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:59 am: |
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But Negroes enjoy carping about anyone who rises above their whining and self defeating failures. Petty jealousy and demonizing are common tools they employ to explain the successes of others. It's just they way they are.....
(This is America. If you ain't got nobody hating on you you ain't doing shit.
If we are not a communistic society why should I be glad because YOU got over? |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2283
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:55 am: |
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"If we are not a communistic society why should I be glad because YOU got over?"
Good question. Now, can you answer it...??? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8872
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 12:30 pm: |
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Who expects YOU to be glad, chrishayden?? Surely you don't think the goal of me or anybody else is to make people like you glad. You really are confused. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4702
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 12:46 pm: |
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If we are not a communistic society why should I be glad because YOU got over?"
Good question. Now, can you answer it...???
(If I am strictly a capitalist rugged individualist American at worst I should hate and envy you for your success and at best I should use it as a motivator to spur me to do better for myself.
Keeping up with the Joneses so to speak.
But since I am above all politics--and indeed all earthly and material passions and distractions-- I receive great recompense of reward from your doing well since I too can feed on the positivist universal energies that you radiate outward.
Who expects YOU to be glad, chrishayden?? Surely you don't think the goal of me or anybody else is to make people like you glad. You really are confused.
(No I'm not. When I get on here and put the wood to you it makes me feel GOOD in the morning. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8877
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 01:50 pm: |
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Still waiting to feel good, crissyboy?? The only wood associated with you is the consistency of your big head. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4711
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 03:01 pm: |
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Still waiting to feel good, crissyboy??
(No. Actually I felt good hours ago and still am on that natural high) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8884
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 03:47 pm: |
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You really think you get over, don't you, crissyboy? LMAO. You are in denial about the fact that you ain't raisin no hell. You're just another flannel-mouth negro who thinks he has all the answers. pathetic. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5858
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 05:39 pm: |
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"But Negroes enjoy carping about anyone who rises above their whining and self defeating failures. Petty jealousy and demonizing are common tools they employ to explain the successes of others. It's just they way they are....."
You mean the petty resentful rancorous spew and the bitter crude demonization from green-eyed "Negroes" to successful Black immigrants for rising above their situation and leading this country in education and employment?
...Yup, it's just the way they are.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2453
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 07:06 pm: |
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its funny though...people like Condi, in fact, is very much like the Africans you speak of, Tonya. I recently heard a respected historian speak, and she said that while she was teaching a course at Harvard, many of the African students told this African American professor that they did not want anything to do with African Americans.
What is missing in many of these reports, as Cynique pointed out recently, and I long ago, is that many of these Africans are elite on arrival...and these same African look down upon their brethren in the villages, as our Condis, Cosby, and others look down upon their brethren in the hood. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5859
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 08:19 pm: |
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Absolutely. Condi's no different than the set that has (openly) come to define the Black middle class (unfortunately). (Notice, we're being defined by the most self-defeating, self-negating cliques among us, interesting.) Anyway, Condi's more forthright about who she is; that's all. But make no mistake, Condi and that entire group is the exact same breed. And so what I don't get is how we tend to demonize African immigrants more, who, I agree, are no different than Condi and many from the BMC. We say African immigrants "look down" on AA's. Well so do this group from the BMC; they "look down" on all AA's that don't share their way of thinking, regardless of class. We say this new wave of African immigrants, who weren't here at the time, did not participate in the movement. Hey, neither did Condi and her ilk so why the double standard...?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8886
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:03 pm: |
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You're a member of the black middle class, Tonya. But I suppose you consider yourself an exception to the criteria you have personally established using as your measuring stick, posters on this board who you disagree with and whom you refer to as "coons" and n i g g e r s. Pointing fingers and generalizing about the people who make up the middle strata of the black population is treading a slippery slope nowadays. As my favorite PHD, the very socially-conscious Yvette reminds us, painting the black middle class with a broad brush is unfair and inaccurate. It is from the concerned ranks of the middleclass that the most vocal criticism comes about indigency in black America. Marcus Mabry who wrote this critical autobiography about Condoleeze Rice is a member of the black middleclass. And I now have a new figure to refer to, thanks to Yukio posting the latest census figures. There are 40 million black people in America and even if just half of that number are middleclass, that's a vast number of people to try and rubber stamp. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5862
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:29 pm: |
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"...the criteria you have personally established using. . .posters on this board who you disagree with and whom you refer to as "coons" and n i g g e r s."
Cynnique this is the second time you've done this in 2 days. I don't know if it's paranoia or what, but you act as if the Black people on this board are the only Blacks that exist and therefore whenever I make mention of Black people, esp. AA's from the middle class, I must be talking about a board member in particular or all the people on this board. That's simply not true. Note: there's a debate going on throughout Blk academia re: Blks and social class (and misogyny and sexism, too). This just happens to be the topic that many are discussing right now. It's nothing personal; it has nothing to do with you or anyone else on this board, tho the views expressed here on this board are indeed extremely helpful.
"...painting the black middle class with a broad brush is unfair..."
Read my post again. You will see that I did the exact opposite. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8887
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:55 pm: |
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Well, when you start talking about a "clique", you kinda get specific, and the schism that exists between the factions of the black middleclass is no more alive and well than on this board. But your point is well taken. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5864
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 03:03 am: |
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I said cliques...
...with an "s".
And at that moment, I briefly commented that we (the entire AA community) are being defined by aforesaid cliques. |
Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2454
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 04:18 am: |
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Tonya: I think the difference is, that BMC are elitist, sometimes condescending....whereas, some Africans are condescending and elitist, because ALSO they believe we have no culture. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5866
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:48 am: |
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We don't think they have a culture either. Remember, we think they're savages. We're worse than condescending; we're racist, culturally insensitive..and crude.
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2287
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:29 pm: |
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"You mean the petty resentful rancorous spew and the bitter crude demonization from green-eyed "Negroes" to successful Black immigrants for rising above their situation and leading this country in education and employment?"
Nope! It's the petty nature of the defeatist victimization obsessed Negro who bitterly resents the successes of black immigrants and black Americans. Since their lackluster lives reflects their failure to do better (take advantages of opportunities, situations or resources that are available or even try for that matter), they falsely believe other blacks owe them something (e.g. the black middle class). They reinforce such spurious thinking with name calling (e.g. sell out, Uncle Tom, etc..) and emotionally charged race baiting as a form of catharsis. You weren't aware of this....????
"...Yup, it's just the way they are."
This is true.....just as I have stated in the aforementioned.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8888
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 01:38 pm: |
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Welllll, - I'm not convinced that certain grievances aren't justified. The fact remains that African interlopers high-jack many grants and set-asides that would ordinarily accrue to black Americans. By usurping the heritage of slave descendants, these elite immigrants "rob" black Americans of what little aid they have been able to lay claim to. And adding insult to injury, these aliens adopt a superior attitude. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5871
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 02:12 pm: |
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"Nope! It's the petty nature of the defeatist victimization obsessed Negro who bitterly resents the successes of black immigrants and black Americans. Since their lackluster lives reflects their failure to do better (take advantages of opportunities, situations or resources that are available or even try for that matter), they falsely believe other blacks owe them something (e.g. the black middle class). They reinforce such spurious thinking with name calling (e.g. sell out, Uncle Tom, etc..) and emotionally charged race baiting as a form of catharsis. You weren't aware of this....????"
I'm no psychologist but I'm convinced you're talking about yourself.
I'm going to do something that I never do. I’m going to get serious with you for a second: Stop being so hard on yourself. Self-criticism is cool, but your shit be so over the top..just bitter, angry, hostile...
That's an awful way to be on yourself, especially if there's no one around to save you from yourself. I won't get personal (I don't care about you that much), but I will offer this: Life's too short. |
Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2456
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 02:22 pm: |
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We don't think they have a culture either. Remember, we think they're savages. We're worse than condescending; we're racist, culturally insensitive..and crude.
Some of the "we," but not all. Furthermore, personally, I think it is more detrimental for elite Africans to be conservative than conservative African Americans.
First of all, since African Americans are "Americans," there is a certain expectation that African Americans will succeed, since they have all of the "great" and "democratic" resources that this "wonderful" country has to offer its assiduous citizens.
But IF the "third world," "aids ridden," "impoverished" Africans can succeed in the U.S., oh my . . . then those folk who claim that there is racism are really low life, lazy "niggers."
In other words, is the lowliest human being in the world can uplift himself in the U.S. then this country is indeed "the land of the free."
This logic is racist as shit...first it assumes that Africans are fundamentally inadequate and only with the aid and resources of the U.S. that they can improve themselves...secondly, it assumes that those African Americans here who are struggling are doing so because they are lazy... |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5873
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 04:48 pm: |
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"Some of the "we," but not all."
Some of them but not all, as well. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5874
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 05:01 pm: |
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"But IF the. . . .Africans can succeed in the U.S., oh my . . . then those folk who claim that there is racism are really low life, lazy "niggers."
Funny. I never heard you make this case with regard to others, like Hispanic immigrants for example. They're called all of those things, even the "n" word, plus much, much more. They are said to be poverty stricken, disease ridden "aliens"--(which sounds worse than third worldly IMO)--and laziness, this has also been attributed to them, and also, threatening, since supposedly they are here to steal back their land - AND - last but not least, this one has got to be the dagger, they are thought of as CRIMINALS. Do you really think some folk won't draw the same conclusions if/when Hispanic migrants start to succeed???
I'm not arguing with your/that theory (not saying I subscribe to it either). I'm just curious, maybe even a bit unfair and cynical. But why now? Why limit it to African Immigrants? Have you made this argument before? Pardon me if I'm off.
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2290
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 05:58 pm: |
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"I'm no psychologist......."
Oh, I know that. Trust me. Your writing has made that very clear my dear. For the record, I do have a B.S. in Pyschology, perhaps I may be able to help you. Just a suggestion...............
"....but I'm convinced you're talking about yourself."
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! That's funny. Not hardly my dear. I don't have issues with denial, persecution, victimization and entitlement issues. But I believe I was very clear about about you and like minded Negroes who believe they should be given a free pass because of their skin color. You see, I'm not into habitual excuse making and finger pointing -you are!
"I'm going to do something that I never do. I’m going to get serious with you for a second: Stop being so hard on yourself. Self-criticism is cool, but your shit be so over the top..just bitter, angry, hostile..."
That's what you call being serious....????? OMG!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! You are making my day. I appreciate it. Nothing like a little humor. Thanks. But I'm not the one who gang bangs, dropped out of school, has 5 out of wedlock children, does drugs, degrades women, indulges in menacing and sociopathic behavior, makes excuses for my own person failings and inability to assume responsibility for my life, bitterly point fingers at other people because they have achieved success while I have done nothing to acquire similar acquisitions, etc... That's your thing -not mine! Sorry..........
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5879
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 08:23 pm: |
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quote:But I believe I was very clear about about you and like minded Negroes who believe they should be given a free pass because of their skin color.
Why--cuz it takes away from you and your free pass, angry white man?
LOL, just kidding!
(About the angry part...teehee!)
quote:You see, I'm not into habitual excuse making and finger pointing
No, but you use too many adjectives, you bytch alot and your post sound ALLL THE SAME. ...Sounds "habitual" to me. I mean, you say you are talking about other ppl, but, c'mon, you gotta know: you exhibit many of the characteristics that you constantly bemoan; and you repeat them over and over again, mostly in the same manner, often using the same words. I am amazed you don't know this by now, ESPECIALLY given your background...not that it takes that much.
quote:I'm not the one who gang bangs, dropped out of school, has 5 out of wedlock children, does drugs, degrades women, indulges in menacing and sociopathic behavior, makes excuses for my own person failings and inability to assume responsibility for my life, bitterly point fingers at other people because they have achieved success while I have done nothing to acquire similar acquisitions, etc...
Well who are you then??  Cuz that's ALLLL you ever talk about.
Btw, they CHEATED you at that psychology school, Boo.
They failed you, it's not your fault.
Awwwwwe. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2291
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 09:08 pm: |
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"Why--cuz it takes away from you and your free pass, angry white man?"
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ok...ok...At least you do have a sense of humor......
"No, but you use too many adjectives, you bytch alot and your post sound ALLL THE SAME. ...Sounds "habitual" to me. I mean, you say you are talking about......I am amazed you don't know this by now, ESPECIALLY given your background...not that it takes that much."
Really? Wow! Ok....I guess I'll just have to try harder. Sorry about that..........
"Btw, they CHEATED you at that psychology school, Boo. They failed you, it's not your fault."
Why? Because you said so? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Not hardly my dear. Nice try but I think that dig fell short.....waaaay short. But I can appreciate your attempts at satire and humor. Ok......?
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5881
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 09:49 pm: |
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Three little adjectives, huh!? LOLOLOL!!! (TOO EASY!!) |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2466
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 05:27 pm: |
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Tonya:
"But IF the. . . .Africans can succeed in the U.S., oh my . . . then those folk who claim that there is racism are really low life, lazy "niggers."
Funny. I never heard you make this case with regard to others, like Hispanic immigrants for example. They're called all of those things, even the "n" word, plus much, much more. They are said to be poverty stricken, disease ridden "aliens"--(which sounds worse than third worldly IMO)--and laziness, this has also been attributed to them, and also, threatening, since supposedly they are here to steal back their land - AND - last but not least, this one has got to be the dagger, they are thought of as CRIMINALS. Do you really think some folk won't draw the same conclusions if/when Hispanic migrants start to succeed???
I'm not arguing with your/that theory (not saying I subscribe to it either). I'm just curious, maybe even a bit unfair and cynical. But why now? Why limit it to African Immigrants? Have you made this argument before? Pardon me if I'm off.
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Yes. I’ve made the argument that the African elite [not just African immigrants] are primarily those who have succeeded in the U.S. And that their success can be used as fodder for those who claim that racism doesn’t exist in the U.S., because if it did…how have these Africans succeeded. I make this claim because the same claim was made about West Indians. An African American economist Thomas Sowell has used this claim, and posited that African American culture not racism is the responsible for their impoverished communities. Historian Winston James, a West Indian historian but also trained in economics, has refuted, and I believe successfully, Sowell’s argument. Based on James’s article, and my own personal history w/West Indians in NYC, and my own reading, I have learned, and believe, that migrations usually come in waves, and generally the first wave is the professional and skilled classes, and the next migrations are usually the poorer and unskilled classes, who generally enter and remain, for the most part, in the working class.
“Latino Case”:
Regarding why I do not make the same “theory,” about “Latinos” is because their situation is much more complicated.
First of all, we can simply call Africans “black,” while we can not make that claim about the entire “Latino” community [In fact, as both the articles you and Nafisa_Goma posted illustrate, the question of black identification among “Latinos” is mixed]. That Africans’ blackness is unquestionable allows for a direct refutation of African Americans claim that racism continues to rear its ugly head. This is significant primarily because among all of the “racial minorities” African Americans have been the most consistent and troublesome critics of U.S. racism.
Also, significant percentages of this population are not immigrants, and have a very long history here in the U.S [especially as victims of U.S. imperialism since the 19th c.]. And those in both the U.S. and their respective nations are impoverished and live in “third world” conditions. And their poverty is directly, and more importantly, conspicuously related to their colonial relationship with the U.S. This means that many of these nations—certainly not all—have criticized the U.S from the inside and out. Put simply, Latinos’ intimate relationship with the U.S., and the Latino-Diaspora’s close relationship with their homelands make them, it seems, more suspicious of the U.S. and therefore more critical than Africans, especially since some of them, Mexicans and Puerto Ricans for example, are fighting for or involved in imperial struggles with the U.S.
This doesn’t mean that “Latinos” are as convinced of U.S. racism as African Americans [and I am even loath to say that African Americans still believe this anymore]. This population, like I have said is diverse and have been treated as a “racial minority” in the U.S. and as an immigrant in the U.S. Thus, you have a diversity of Latino organizations that cater to folk from the Puerto Ricans, Dominican Republic, Panama, Mexicans, Chicanos, etc….and these groups disagree among themselves for various reasons, and each have very different relationships with the U.S. For example, since you have very old Chicano and Puerto Rican families here who are often phenotypically white and assimilated to U.S. imperialist mores, you will find among these “Latinos” a very strong strain of anti-immigrant beliefs.
At the same time, you will find radical “Latino” organizations that are explicitly anti-imperialist, such as those Puerto Ricans who want independence from the U.S. See for example, our Attorney General’s complicated relationship with some of these organizations: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/28/AR2007052801139. html
African immigrants’ experiences here, first because they are conspicuously and undeniably black, and second, African identify with other Africans, in general and particular those from the same nation and people-group.
African Case:
I have explained, I think the significance of the first reason, and so let me expound upon the second. What is key about the “Latino” case is that their history of exploitation is quite different from Africans. While we—or some of us—call ourselves African Americans, Africans view us primarily as Americans. And we do not have such strong [and obvious] of a tie with Africa, as do Latinos in the U.S. with those mother country. We—Africans and African Americans—know very little about each other, and to many—as illustrate with my conversations with regulars here—there is no need or desire to learn about each other. Thus, except in the case of Diallo and the antiapartheid movement, there is—at the popular level—very little coordinated political activity and belief in the commonality of struggle among Africans and African Americans.
There is an obvious reason—we are not “immigrants,” and therefore did not choose to come here. And because of the nature of U.S. slavery, we were stripped of our culture, for the most part. And we are neither, according to some Africans, ostensibly black and definitely not Africans. Furthermore, because of our nationality—being U.S. citizens—we, that is African Americans, are snobbish, condescending, and often ignorant. And many Africans hold the same contempt and ignorance of us as we do of them. For a sense of this rather combative relations between Africans Americans and African, canvass my conversations Dahomeyahosi and hers with Schakspir.
Thus, Africans tend to be less critical of U.S. racism than “Latinos.” They are certainly exploited by the U.S. and multinationals, but, for whatever reasons, their criticism seems less confrontation than that coming from Latin America. Secondly, like many immigrants, Africans are less concerned about fighting battles here, and more with getting money, saving it, and sending it off to folk back home. Thirdly, because of the wealth that some have garnered in this country and their relatively short time in the U.S., many Africans are only aware of face-to-face racism. I can not tell the future, but unless the African community endures structural racism the way African Americans have and “Latinos” have, the African population will primarily remain, like a significant part of the Asian American community, distant from civil rights or anti-racist organization.
On the West Coast at least, there are some antiracist Asian organizations that do not embrace the “model minority” myth….
Sorry for the length…
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5921
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 02:57 am: |
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...no need to apologize, it was interesting, thanks. |
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