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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2428
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 07:37 pm: | 
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As I think about my engagement with Dahomeyahoi and Schakspir, I want to ask who exactly is African American?
According to many Africans, being black is not the same as being African. This is, as I understand it, a distinction between "race" and continental idenitification. Of course, I do not believe in race. And I conceptually distinguish between the fiction of race, on the one hand, from the reality of racism.
Nevertheless, I wonder if we can consider, for example, distinguishing white or colored African Americans, that is, people of African descent in the U.S. but not black, from black African Americans. Black African Americans would be those who are unmistakeably "black" of African American ancestry.
Also, and hence the title of the thread, are people like Terrsa Kerry, white Africans, trully African American?
Who determines this? Should Africans get to determine the nomenclature of those of us who are the descendants of slaves in the U.S. [also the caribbean]?
With all of the problems with the term African American, it does establish a link between Africa and us here in the U.S.
Is that link significant for many of us?
Should we be called black American?
What about black?
If we embrace being called black, does that make us the same as black Africans or suggest that we share something with them? |
Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 08:16 pm: |
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Mr. Yukio,
I don't recall if you've been to Africa before, but throughout the continent of Africa, the vast majority of Africans do not accept the notion that there are 'white Africans'. This is a 'Western' media thing.
In Africa (just as in the Arab world), you must be born from an ancient tribe to be an African. In the Arab world, you must be born from an ancient sect to be Arab.
This is why there are millions of 'mixed race' Africans, because they are born from actual tribes, but it's impossible for 'Europeans' to be born from an African tribe.
Do you get their thinking?
Additionally, the U.S. government does not recognize people from Africa as 'African-Americans'. They are named by country, not continent. Colleges may 'fudge' the line on their forms because they prefer foreign students, but on all government forms, only an American-born black can legally be an African-American.
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Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 148
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 08:25 pm: |
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I forgot to add.
In the Arab world, you must have your father's first name as your last name.
Male:
The father is Rakeem bin Jordin
The son would be Amad bin Rakeem
(for female Rakeem bin Jordin's daughter
would be Anessa bint Rakeem).
This patrilineal naming denotes Arab identity.
The same is true of African tribes only the African culture is matrilineal where you must be named for a black woman of an African tribe in order to be an African.
The Kente family are the descendents of Queen Mother Kente (all families are headed by a Queen Mother which basically means the 'oldest woman' in the family) or in Ethiopia the Lira family are the descendents of Nit Lira (elder mother Lira).
When an African son marries, say Kunte Kente, he gives his mother's family name to his bride and she becomes a descendent of Queen Mother Kente.
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2265
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 08:47 pm: |
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"In Africa (just as in the Arab world), you must be born from an ancient tribe to be an African. In the Arab world, you must be born from an ancient sect to be Arab."
And there ya have it! No need to carry the subject any further. Da end.............
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2430
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 09:20 pm: |
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Ntfs: The subject is over if we all accept Nafisa_Goma's point of view.
Nafisa_Goma: Lets me honest here, we are talkin about what people think and how people identify themselves.
Not who is wrong or right, correct?
There are whites who call themselves Africans, whether is it is western or not, this is what they say, and many people in this country accept this[I say foolishly but thats my opinion and besides the point].
Again, long, long, long ago....maybe close to 4yrs ago, Kola told me what many Africans think. The point is people in the U.S. and other places accept Terrea Kerry as an African, Charlize Theron, as a South African.
So to tell me what the U.S. government recognizes is besides the point [though it is ironically how selective you are about accepting the U.S. government's policies--the same government that established the one drop rule. A rule that I do not accept, but one which you and others keep claiming that I do].
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Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 150
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 09:54 pm: |
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Mr. Yukio,
I don't believe that Americans truly see Teresa Kerry and Charlize Theron as Africans.
Is that really what goes through their minds when they look at those women? I doubt that very much.
Whoopi Goldberg is Jewish and publicly identifies as 'Jewish', because just like Charlize Theron calling herself African, it's good press, but how many people look at Whoopi and think JEW?
Charlize Theron's family has owned land in South Africa for more than 100 years and she was born there, but her family is DUTCH, they supported apartheid and they slaughtered many Africans to control that land.
Those facts go through the heads of a lot of 'people of color' in America when Ms. Theron or Kerry say they are Africans. Would you agree?
Btw, Tarzan is also an African and along with Beastmaster qualifies as Africa's leading male sex symbol of all time. 
I had a white guy tell me that.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2431
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 10:32 pm: |
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Nafisa_Goma: Let me say first, this thread is less about Africans and more about the term African American and black American and black.
You state and ask:
I don't believe that Americans truly see Teresa Kerry and Charlize Theron as Africans.
Is that really what goes through their minds [Americans] when they look at those women? I doubt that very much.
Which Americans? I think white Americans would say she is both white and South African. The beloved Nelson Mandela has embrace Theron, legitimizing, to many, her South Africanness.
I think your statement and question is also ironic:
In other words, you are now interested in the slave master's perception of people, rather than what these people may claim as their own identity; but you do this for Africans--born from an ancient tribe--claim as their own identity.
Your preference illustrates that it is fair to say that what we are talkin about is what people think of themselves AND how others view them.
cheers,
y.
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Nafisa_goma
Regular Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 154
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:29 pm: |
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Mr. Yukio,
Charlize Theron is the slave master in question.
Trust me when I say that Nelson Mandela does not truly see her as an "African" anymore than Toni Morrison honestly sees Bill Clinton as a 'black man'. Good press and grandstanding are at play here and you of all people should be intelligent enough to recognize that.
Do you also believe that Frank Sinatra saw Sammy Davis Jr. as a "Jew" or his brother?
Sammy's wife Altovise says the "rat pack" called Sammy the "n" word as easily as they breathed and that Sinatra was very racist in private.
So what do people really think Mr. Yukio?
Are you also aware that most black South Africans do not revere Nelson Mandela the way they once did and many consider him a sell-out?
How have you missed the fact that his ex-wife
Winnie is more beloved in South Africa by blacks than he is? 60 Minutes did a whole hour special on that fact as they followed Winnie on a tour of the country.
My point is--when people are not being Politically Correct, what do people really think?
Do the people in Africa or in the United States really think of Africans when they look at Charlize Theron or Senator Kerry's wife?
Do the people in Africa or in the United States really consider those women to be Africans?
I don't think so.
White Americans, especially, see Charlize Theron as an upper class Dutch Afrikaner, not an African.
They admire her for being the daughter of a wealthy plantation owner.
Let me also post the following again:
I don't recall if you've been to Africa before, but throughout the continent of Africa, the vast majority of Africans do not accept the notion that there are 'white Africans'. This is a 'Western' media thing.
In Africa (just as in the Arab world), you must be born from an ancient tribe to be an African. In the Arab world, you must be born from an ancient sect to be Arab.
This is why there are millions of 'mixed race' Africans, because they are born from actual tribes, but it's impossible for 'Europeans' to be born from an African tribe.
Do you get their thinking?
Additionally, the U.S. government does not recognize people from Africa as 'African-Americans'. They are named by country, not continent. Colleges may 'fudge' the line on their forms because they prefer foreign students, but on all government forms, only an American-born black can legally be an African-American.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2435
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 12:46 am: |
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Nafisa_Goma: It aint what I think, and I already told what I think. But yeah, white people see Theron as South African. People are so liberal and historically ignorant that apartheid is something that happened in the 16th c. I think you give people too much credit. |
Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 844
Registered: 07-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 02:20 am: |
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-- Yukio
"I want to ask who exactly is African American?"
Hmmm. AA? A tired old moniker. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5810
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 02:22 am: |
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"Btw, Tarzan is also an African and along with Beastmaster qualifies as Africa's leading male sex symbol of all time.
I had a white guy tell me that."
LOL! |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2437
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 05:56 am: |
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Hmmm. AA? A tired old moniker
LOL!
Good reply...LOL! |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 267
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 09:42 am: |
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You'll find thousands of answers to this question. I think an African American is someone of African ancestry who lives in America, such as myself.
I don't consider Charlize Theron or any other non black to be African and that includes Arabs and Indian populations in eastern and southern Africa. I'm surprised Nelson Mandela embraced her given that this woman had the nerve to say that South Africa had no opportunities for whites. But Nelson Mandela is a man of compromise and he's done some questionable things. We can get into the origin of the word Africa and the idea of Arabia and Africa being separate landmasses as strange etc. My opinion is completely "unscientific" and based on socially accepted definitions. For example an arab student would not have dared join the African student Association at at my college, Brown University. Nor would a white person who born/was raised in Africa. However we did have a black Jamaican member.
I don't call black Americans, African-Americans but I'm in no place to tell them what they should call themselves. There are many continental Africans who do refer to them as African-Americans. I haven't noticed that people who call themselves AA feel any more of a connection with Africans than black people who don't go by this name. I think that when a person calls him or herself black in the U.S. they are usually adhering to the one drop rule which is meaningless.
When latinos call themselves black I have found that they usually have a real connection with Africa. Because black in latin America often means that all known ancestors are black.
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 441
Registered: 05-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 11:34 am: |
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Yukio, first I think people need to determine whether they see Black/Black American/African-American as a RACE or a CULTURAL IDENTITY.
I think failing to make that distinction is where most (the vast majority?) of us, whether we accept African or European or American classification, misunderstand one another; and ultimately lock horns.
If you see Black/BA/AA as a race, then yes, I would have to admit that I, and people who look like me, are NOT of the Black race.
I'm looking in my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (tenth edition) and on page 118 1 black is defined as: b(1)very dark in color (2) a: having dark skin, hair, and eyes 2black 4 a: a person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin b: AFRO-AMERICAN
I mean, hell, even Stevie Wonder can see that I don't fit those definitions. I'm not one for posting my picture on the web, but to give you an idea of what I look like, do you remember the film Do the Right Thing? Well, when that film came out EVERYONE said I looked like Rosie Perez. I haven't seen Ms. Perez lately, but I sure hope she aged well (LOL). Nevertheless, if we're going by complexion, eye color, hair color and texture, then Rosie Perez and I are dead ringers. I don't think our features are similar and lord knows I don't have that squeaky voice of hers, but basing our similarities strickly on natural coloring, then yes, I'd have to agree there is a strong likeness.
I know that Rosie Perez, by Latin American standards, is classified as Mulatto(a). So it stands to reason that if she and I look similar then I, too, am Mulatta. I accept that. I have no disagreements with that whatsoever. However, that has never been MY argument because I do not view Black/BA/AA as my race. I see Black as my cultural identity.
I was raised on fried chicken, collard greens, mac and cheese, corn bread, sweet tea, oxtails, red beans and rice, sweet potato pie, peach cobbler, grits and fried porgies - gotdayam! I'm getting hungry! I jumped double-dutch as a girl. I played Hot Peas and Butter. I carried my candle and a book of matches and had to climb six flights of stairs in the projects during the New York Blackout of '77. I beat-boxed and free-styled on the stoop with my childhood friends. I wore my pink Kangol with LL and my shell-top Adidas with Run-DMC, and BLASTED Rappers Delight, These Are the Breaks, and I Wanna Thank You Heavenly Father from my boombox. I wore cornrows in my hair with beads and aluminum foil on the tips. My cornrows unraveled within two days because I don't have enough "kink" in my hair to "hold 'em," but gotdayam I wore 'em! I was raised on the Motown sound. I danced the Soul Train line with my brother and cousins in our living room. Watched Good Times, The Jeffersons, Sanford and Son and Like It Is with Gil Noble. Shit! I'm taking y'all waaay back! My mama tore my ass up in church and beat me in the supermarket too! As a fast-ass teenager, my mama pulled me out of house parties and kicked my little ass in the street all the way home. I read Why Colored Girls Consider Suicide When the Rainbow Ain't Enuff, Sula, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, and Roots. I know the Black lingo. I know the Black swagger, and I talk the talk and walk the walk. I know the Black Code of the street. I kick the ballistics with the brudders 'round the way. And I've paid the Black Tax.
If that ain't Black (American) CULTURE then I don't know what the hell is. So am I Black racially? NO. Am I Black culturally? A resounding YES. And NO ONE can take that away from me! And if they dare try, then BY GOD, my revolution will be televised! |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2439
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 12:29 pm: |
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Dahomeyahosi: Thank you. So to you to be black is to be racially pure? And to be African is to be black born on the continent? Is this correct?
And the majority of "black Americans" are really then not black? Are they mixed? By the way, I'm speaking to your comments based on ancestry not color and features.
But when speaking of "latinos" who call themselves black is it the connection to Africa that is important or that they know that all their ancestors are black [which included a very small population of people] and/or both?
urban_scribe: Thank you. what you describe is part of my experience, including the NYC blackout...LOL!
So "black" (American) culture for you includes a cuisine, a style, artistic expressions or performance, particularly music, literature, a certain kind of humor, and a certain kind of interpersonal performance by men and women? Is this finally bereft of any African -ness to you as you understand it?
And why call this culture "black" in the first place? You say it address a culture and identity but not race...but why "black"?
Put another way, why use black with can connote a color or race if you are making a distinction between race and culture?
Most cultures are designated by a continental or nation identification.
And why not African-American [continental identification]? |
Serenasailor
Veteran Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 1647
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 02:03 pm: |
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Yukio, first I think people need to determine whether they see Black/Black American/African-American as a RACE or a CULTURAL IDENTITY.
I think failing to make that distinction is where most (the vast majority?) of us, whether we accept African or European or American classification, misunderstand one another; and ultimately lock horns.
If you see Black/BA/AA as a race, then yes, I would have to admit that I, and people who look like me, are NOT of the Black race.
I'm looking in my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (tenth edition) and on page 118 1 black is defined as: b(1)very dark in color (2) a: having dark skin, hair, and eyes 2black 4 a: a person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin b: AFRO-AMERICAN
I mean, hell, even Stevie Wonder can see that I don't fit those definitions. I'm not one for posting my picture on the web, but to give you an idea of what I look like, do you remember the film Do the Right Thing? Well, when that film came out EVERYONE said I looked like Rosie Perez. I haven't seen Ms. Perez lately, but I sure hope she aged well (LOL). Nevertheless, if we're going by complexion, eye color, hair color and texture, then Rosie Perez and I are dead ringers. I don't think our features are similar and lord knows I don't have that squeaky voice of hers, but basing our similarities strickly on natural coloring, then yes, I'd have to agree there is a strong likeness.
I know that Rosie Perez, by Latin American standards, is classified as Mulatto(a). So it stands to reason that if she and I look similar then I, too, am Mulatta. I accept that. I have no disagreements with that whatsoever. However, that has never been MY argument because I do not view Black/BA/AA as my race. I see Black as my cultural identity.
I was raised on fried chicken, collard greens, mac and cheese, corn bread, sweet tea, oxtails, red beans and rice, sweet potato pie, peach cobbler, grits and fried porgies - gotdayam! I'm getting hungry! I jumped double-dutch as a girl. I played Hot Peas and Butter. I carried my candle and a book of matches and had to climb six flights of stairs in the projects during the New York Blackout of '77. I beat-boxed and free-styled on the stoop with my childhood friends. I wore my pink Kangol with LL and my shell-top Adidas with Run-DMC, and BLASTED Rappers Delight, These Are the Breaks, and I Wanna Thank You Heavenly Father from my boombox. I wore cornrows in my hair with beads and aluminum foil on the tips. My cornrows unraveled within two days because I don't have enough "kink" in my hair to "hold 'em," but gotdayam I wore 'em! I was raised on the Motown sound. I danced the Soul Train line with my brother and cousins in our living room. Watched Good Times, The Jeffersons, Sanford and Son and Like It Is with Gil Noble. Shit! I'm taking y'all waaay back! My mama tore my ass up in church and beat me in the supermarket too! As a fast-ass teenager, my mama pulled me out of house parties and kicked my little ass in the street all the way home. I read Why Colored Girls Consider Suicide When the Rainbow Ain't Enuff, Sula, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, and Roots. I know the Black lingo. I know the Black swagger, and I talk the talk and walk the walk. I know the Black Code of the street. I kick the ballistics with the brudders 'round the way. And I've paid the Black Tax.
If that ain't Black (American) CULTURE then I don't know what the hell is. So am I Black racially? NO. Am I Black culturally? A resounding YES. And NO ONE can take that away from me! And if they dare try, then BY GOD, my revolution will be televised!
But you don't realize Urban_Scribe is that a White man can do all of those things but does not make him Black.
If Charlize Theron was raised on grits, cornbread, and Beat-Boxed would that make her "Culturally Black"? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5821
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 02:32 pm: |
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(Ooops! This was supposed to be posted on THIS thread LOL)
From “Afro-Latin Americans: A rising voice” thread:
One of my most memorable scenes in the movie Lean on Me was when Morgan Freeman "Principal Joe Clark" gathered all the of his students in the auditorium, Blacks, poor whites, Hispanics, all poor, and he told the Black students in the audience to look at the people around them. He said if they didn't HAVE TO be here, they wouldn't. And he was right. That didn't make them Black, it made them poor. However, many generations of wealthy Black folks, then and now, manage to maintain a lot of soul...and it's certainly not because they HAVE TO.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2442
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 02:42 pm: |
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Good questions:
Can a white person just grow up among "black" people and participate and immerse themselves in what some people call "African American" or "black" culture and be culturally African American or black?
Is there something about how African Americans or black Americans relate to each other that is different from how white Americans relate to each other?
Are African Americans or black Americans "materialistic to the core"?
Are "Jack and Jill," and HBCUs, for example, independent black institutions [though many are state funded] or just something black people belong to and endeavored to attend because they could not get into white institutions?
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 442
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 03:27 pm: |
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Serenasailor, YES, it would make them Black CULTURALLY. We're talking about culture here - not race. Please don't confuse them.
Race, loosely defined, is shared phenotype amongst a group of people. Culture is shared lifetime experiences amongst a group of people. So, eating corn bread ONCE, or several times even, in and of itself, won't make anyone culturally Black. No more than eating lasagne makes one Italian. But being brought up following a certain diet, listening to certain music, having a certain style of dress, certain mannerisms, etc, which you also have a family history of, does indeed make that your culture.
Just as many Blacks are accused all the time of "acting White" because they talk a certain the way, dress a certain way, behave a certain way, live in certain neighborhoods, follow a certain diet, belong to certain organizations, and listen to certain music - all of which people for the most part consider "the White way" - then, YES, they are White culturally because they have much in common with White culture. I believe one can be Black racially and White culturally and/or adopt White culture; and vice versa.
If you look throughout history, many Whites have crossed over to the Black side and many Blacks have crossed over to the White side, both racially and culturally. It's really not that difficult. Say, within three generations a White family can become Black racially; a Black family can become White racially.
For instance, I recall reading a post of yours where you stated that your father is fair-skinned. So if you and I, I'm assuming you're a man, were to have a child together, given my coloring and genetics and your genetics - it's a pretty good chance that our child may very well come out looking White. Now, say, our child has a child with someone White. Our grandchild will definitely look/be White. Now, say, our grandchild has a child with someone who's also White - well, boom, White, White, White all over the place. So we'll have great-grandchildren with maybe 10% African DNA, if that, and the other 90% or more is European DNA. The same thing happens in reverse. And that's just 3,4 generations, and has been going on throughout history.
Now here's the tricky part: Would our White great-grandchildren hold on to Black culture or will they totally "cross-over" and not only be racially/genetically White, but culturally White as well? Because it is possible that they can be White racially(genetically) and Black culturally.
Right now in this country we see this phenomena taking place amongst Asians. Asians are "breeding out," adopting White culture, and becoming White genetically all around us.
You'll also notice that when Blacks are culturally White, they are shunned by Blacks who are culturally Black. They're called "Uncle Toms" "Aunt Jemimas" "Oreos" and "Sellouts." Yet, Blacks who are culturally White tend not to mingle with Whites who are culturally Black. Whites who are culturally Black are also shunned by Whites who are culturally White. They're called "Wiggers" "Niggah lovers" and "race traitors." But you will often find Blacks and Whites who share culture co-mingling.
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Urban_scribe
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Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 443
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 03:38 pm: |
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One of my most memorable scenes in the movie Lean on Me was when Morgan Freeman "Principal Joe Clark" gathered all the of his students in the auditorium, Blacks, poor whites, Hispanics, all poor, and he told the Black students in the audience to look at the people around them. He said if they didn't HAVE TO be here, they wouldn't. And he was right. That didn't make them Black, it made them poor. However, many generations of wealthy Black folks, then and now, manage to maintain a lot of soul...and it's certainly not because they HAVE TO.
Also, then and now, poor Blacks and poor Whites as well as rich Blacks and rich Whites have formed families because they WANTED TO. |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 273
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 03:51 pm: |
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Yukio: So to you to be black is to be racially pure? And to be African is to be black born on the continent? Is this correct?
DahomeyAhosi: That's the simplest way to arrange things for me.
Yukio: And the majority of "black Americans" are really then not black? Are they mixed? By the way, I'm speaking to your comments based on ancestry not color and features.
DahomeyAhosi: Racially speaking yes they are mixed. And culturally speaking yes they are mixed. Does that make me better than them? No.
Yukio: But when speaking of "latinos" who call themselves black is it the connection to Africa that is important or that they know that all their ancestors are black [which included a very small population of people] and/or both?
DahomeyAhosi: Both. Latinos are very interesting to me. I had an extremely hard time understanding all the botanicas here in NY and the survival of Santeria, Yoruba, and the fact that most adherents don't look anyt hing like me. But when the adherents do look like me, call themselves prieto, and know more than an average Nigerian, I have immense respect for them. I don't know how they survived but I don't see them any different than I see an African from a different ethnic group.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5823
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 04:26 pm: |
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"Also, then and now, poor Blacks and poor Whites as well as rich Blacks and rich Whites have formed families because they WANTED TO."
To me that would make a person bi-racial and/or bi or multi-cultural. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being poor; so, no, it wouldn't necessarily be because they HAD TO...totally different situation, in my view.
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Enchanted
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Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 865
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 04:48 pm: |
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I agree 100% with UrbanScribe she is saying what I feel is the case and using comman sense thank you Urban. Yukio could get straight to the pint and Nafisa I have been to Africa and I saw what you described but that does not apply to America and UrbanScribe is bettr repping what black and culture is for Amricans.
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Urban_scribe
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Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 444
Registered: 05-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 05:23 pm: |
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So "black" (American) culture for you includes a cuisine, a style, artistic expressions or performance, particularly music, literature, a certain kind of humor, and a certain kind of interpersonal performance by men and women? Is this finally bereft of any African-ness to you as you understand it?
I believe Black American culture certainly contains elements of multiple African traditions. But over centuries those traditions have been "watered-down" because as a minority population in this country, Blacks simply could not hold on to African traditions. Add that to the fact that White slavemasters and overseers would not ALLOW Blacks to hold on to their African heritage. So most of it has been lost.
If you look to Black Caribbean culture, you'll note they were able to maintain much more African traditions because Blacks/Africans there greatly outnumber Whites, and always have.
And why call this culture "black" in the first place? You say it address a culture and identity but not race...but why "black"?
Well, when I came up, Blacks were called Black. My parents' generation were Negro. However, my mom's older sister, who's approaching 70, still uses the word "Colored" when referring to herself and other Blacks. So I would hazard a guess that it's a generational thing on one hand.
On the other hand, I, personally, find the word Black empowering. Black, unlike "Nig/ger" "Negro" or "Colored" was the FIRST ethnic label that Blacks, not Whites, chose for Blacks, and became popular in usage worldwide. Even though chronologically "African-American" was proposed long before "Black" was, it was not widely embraced or used until AFTER Black was well-established. And today many use both interchangeably, they haven't dropped the Black because Black never goes out of style.
I also prefer Black over African-American due to observations I've made over the years. If you're interested, I'm of the opinion that African-American gives Black Americans a false sense of belonging and a false sense of pride.
Unlike other hyphenated Americans, Blacks today, on average, really have no connection to Africa. Whereas an average Italian-American, for example, speaks Italian, has an Italian name, knows where his family comes from in Italy, eats Italian cuisine, listens to Italian music, and celebrates many Italian traditions. Even if their family came to America at the turn of the 20th century, looking for a better life, they still have held on to their Italian culture and heritage. So they can truly lay claim to Italy as their "Motherland," and America as their adopted home.
The same can be said of German-Americans, French-Americans, Spaniard-Americans, Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans, hell, it can be said about all hyphenated Americans EXCEPT African-Americans.
The average "African-America" couldn't find Sierra Leone on a map if their life depended on it, doesn't speak any of the African languages or dialects, doesn't celebrate African traditions, or even know of the African traditions to celebrate them, doesn't have their African name, doesn't know which African country their family's from, much less the exact village, doesn't listen to African music, and doesn't eat and can't prepare traditional African cuisine. So what the hell is so African about "African-Americans"?
Further, it's painfully obvious, as we see on this forum, that Africans don't give a DAMN about African-Americans. Africans look down on African-Americans. Whereas as Italians still see Italian-Americans as their family, as "one of us" because there's a commonality there. Outside of physical appearance, what do Africans and so-called African-Americans have in common?
So "African-Americans" are left to identify with the WHOLE ENTIRE African continent because they really don't where they belong in order for "African-Americans" to have a sense of belonging? Not only do I find that assbackward, but I find it insulting.
Put another way, why use black with can connote a color or race if you are making a distinction between race and culture?
It's a matter of semantics. The word Black can be used to mean so many things. It can define a race, if one believes in separate races; it can define a culture. Some, as I do, use it to define a culture, others use it to define a race; others, still, use it to define both. This brings us back to the confusion and misunderstandings I mentioned earlier when people use the same word to mean different things because it CAN mean different things. If you can come up with a word that will define the Black race separate from Black culture, I'm all ears.
Most cultures are designated by a continental or nation identification.
And why not African-American [continental identification]?
Do Spaniards-Americans, Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, French-Americans, Portuguese-Americans, Russian-Americans, or German-Americans have to identify with the whole European continent? Of course not! Because they know where they BELONG.
The nations that make up the African continent don't even identify with one another. Because they know where they BELONG. For that matter, Northern Sudan doesn't even identify with Southern Sudan.
Why should "African-Americans" have to identify with an entire continent that doesn't even identify with itself? Oh, right - because African-Americans don't know where they belong. Like that's African-Americans' fault...
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Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2446
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 06:18 pm: |
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DahomeyAhosi: Both. Latinos are very interesting to me. I had an extremely hard time understanding all the botanicas here in NY and the survival of Santeria, Yoruba, and the fact that most adherents don't look anyt hing like me. But when the adherents do look like me, call themselves prieto, and know more than an average Nigerian, I have immense respect for them. I don't know how they survived but I don't see them any different than I see an African from a different ethnic group.
But looking like you does not mean that they are without Spanish [European] or Arawak [Amerindians] blood. So then they are not really black but culturally African?
In the Spanish Caribbean, especially PR and Cuba, when the Spanish tried to force Catholicism upon the Africans, the Africans superficially accepted the language and the religion, but fused the Catholicism with their African religion in such a way that the content of the religion retain the fundamentals of African practices. This was facilitated also by the constant importation of more and more Africans. And since the slaves included both pure Africans and mixed people of African descent, the practice of Santeria was not limited to the “pure’ Africans. And because they were the demographic majority, like Africans in Africa, they did not lose their culture as much as African Americans, who were and are a demographic minority.
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Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2447
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 06:45 pm: |
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Urban_scribe:
Unlike other hyphenated Americans, Blacks today, on average, really have no connection to Africa. Whereas an average Italian-American, for example, speaks Italian, has an Italian name, knows where his family comes from in Italy, eats Italian cuisine, listens to Italian music, and celebrates many Italian traditions. Even if their family came to America at the turn of the 20th century, looking for a better life, they still have held on to their Italian culture and heritage. So they can truly lay claim to Italy as their "Motherland," and America as their adopted home.
I would probably disagree with you about Italian Americans and others. You’re characterization is a bit too romantic. It really depends on the generation. But I get your point.
Urban_scribe:
So "African-Americans" are left to identify with the WHOLE ENTIRE African continent because they really don't where they belong in order for "African-Americans" to have a sense of belonging? Not only do I find that assbackward, but I find it insulting.
Why assbackward and insulting?
Is not African-American more precise? I look at it as a continental identification.
American includes, does it not, S. America and Central America? Are we embracing a sort of cultural imperialism by calling ourselves Americans in the first place, when we are really talking about the U.S.?
Urban_scribe:
Why should "African-Americans" have to identify with an entire continent that doesn't even identify with itself? Oh, right - because African-Americans don't know where they belong. Like that's African-Americans' fault...
We are of African descent, and we share a history with continental Africans but it is different. Should not I identification reflect those differences?
Does not African American say a) no knowledge of nation b) acknowledge of being stolen c) embrace of Africa d) embrace of people of African descent and their struggles in the U.S. e) not African but not just American . . . isn’t this more precise and honest than saying black American?
Does, in other words, black American hide the fact that Africans and European participated in the Atlantic Slave trade?
Urban_scribe:
On the other hand, I, personally, find the word Black empowering. Black, unlike "Nig/ger" "Negro" or "Colored" was the FIRST ethnic label that Blacks, not Whites, chose for Blacks, and became popular in usage worldwide. Even though chronologically "African-American" was proposed long before "Black" was, it was not widely embraced or used until AFTER Black was well-established. And today many use both interchangeably, they haven't dropped the Black because Black never goes out of style.
But at the end of the day, doesn’t black always connote race? Can you really separate African [continental identification] from black [racial]?
Black may sound stronger, but is it not too all encompassing? What does it really mean anyways…does it have some kind of geographical relevance?
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Schakspir
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Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1058
Registered: 12-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 07:03 pm: |
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SS: I jumped double-dutch as a girl.
Schak: elsewhere you've said you were a man. WHICH IS IT???? |
Urban_scribe
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Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 445
Registered: 05-2006
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Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 09:27 pm: |
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Why assbackward and insulting?
Is not African-American more precise? I look at it as a continental identification.
American includes, does it not, S. America and Central America? Are we embracing a sort of cultural imperialism by calling ourselves Americans in the first place, when we are really talking about the U.S.?
Yes, technically, there's North America, South America, Central America, and Latin America (which is comprised of various parts of the previous three), but in all my life I've never heard anyone refer to themselves as an American unless they're from the United States of America.
There are only three countries on the North American continent: Canada, Mexico, and the USA. We are the only of those three to call ourselves Americans and have American as our nationality because we're the only one with America included as part of the official name of our country. If you talk to a South American, they will tell you their nationality is Venezuelan, for instance, because that's the name of their country. A Central American will say they're Chilean, for example, because that is the name of their country; and so on and so forth. So that's the difference there.
Now that I've answered the easy part...
Africa is the second largest continent in the world right after Asia, if I remember my geography. I recall reading some time ago that there are over 800 tribes in Africa and just as many different African dialects.
We know there is N. Africa, S. Africa, E. Africa and W. Africa. For the sake of this discussion, let's say that those 800 tribes and dialects are evenly distributed throughout the African continent.
We know that the overwhelming majority of slaves brought to the New World were West African. So that gives "African-Americans" 200 tribes and 200 dialects to choose from - you call that precise?
Let's put it another way...if you know a woman you're dealing with has slept with 200 men and she comes to you and tells you she's pregnant and it's YOURS - you'll question that like a sonmabitch, won't you? As well you should, given the circumstances. Well, Yukio, that's how I question that catch-all, one-for-all-and-all-for-one phrase "African-American".
Embracing the entire continent just because it's Africa is ridiculous. Can't every human being on the face of the earth lay claim to Africa - just because it's Africa? Do we not all descend from Africa?
So the only thing that could distinguish African-Americans from everyone else would be African-Americans knowing precisely which African country they come from, which African dialect they speak, and exactly who their African people are. Clearly, so-called African-Americans DON'T know this. So, excluding a shared phenotype - and even that's a stretch because, really, how often do you see African-Americans who look like Alec Wek (sp?)? Have you EVER seen an African-American who looks like Alec Wek (sp?)? So even the shared phenotype is shakey. But the phenotype's close enough, excluding that, what do African-Americans share with Africans? Language? No. Cuisine? No. Music? No. Names? No. Traditions? No. Dance? No. Customs? No. Religion? No. Traditional dress? No.
Adding to the fact that Africans and African-Americans share nothing of any significance, the average so-called African-American has to trace their heritage back 300 years, as in three CENTURIES, as in 15 generations to find their NEAREST African relative. In fact, the average so-called African-American would most likely stumble upon a White or Native American relative before they dig up an African relative. I mean that's just like, wow!
As romantic as you may think my views on other hyphenated Americans are, I can GUARANTEE you that an Italian-American DOES NOT have to travel back 15 generations in his family tree to find an Italian relative. Nor does a French-American, a German-American, a Russian-American, a Chinese-American, etc. Only so-called African-Americans must jump through those hoops because they had their African heritage stripped from them. But if they insist upon calling themselves "African-Americans" who am I to stop them? |
Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2449
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 10:35 pm: |
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Urban_scribe:
Interesting responses. There are only three countries on the North American continent: Canada, Mexico, and the USA. We are the only of those three to call ourselves Americans and have American as our nationality because we're the only one with America included as part of the official name of our country. If you talk to a South American, they will tell you their nationality is Venezuelan, for instance, because that's the name of their country. A Central American will say they're Chilean, for example, because that is the name of their country; and so on and so forth. So that's the difference there.
Again, is that cultural imperialism? I have anecdotes of people from the Americas asking that exact question: Why do U.S. people monopolize an identification with the Americas?
Does saying that it is a common practice make it legitimate?
Also, I find it interesting and curious that you will accept this--a continental identification--when it comes to the U.S. [of A]--but not a continental identification---when it comes to Africa.
Using your same logic--that you admit--we comprise not only native Americans--and the variety of their ethnic groups---but the various nations of the British.
So to you, is "black" American culture distinct from what white American culture?
What is "black" about this culture if "Africans and African-Americans share nothing of any significance"?
Cultures are living phenomena, right? How was "black" American culture birthed? Who were its parents?
All cultures do the say things, right? There is always a cuisine, material culture [pottery, for example], expressive culture [dance for example], and spirituality [Christianity, for example].
What did blacks in the U.S. doing with European instruments? What did they bring to it in order to make it new? To make it “black” American?
What did blacks in the U.S. bring to Christianity in order to make it new?
What did blacks in the U.S. bring to European dance forms in order to make it new?
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9386
Registered: 04-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 07:15 am: |
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Yukio,
I would start from whether and what appeared to be the real EFFECT of labeling Mrs. Heinz-Kerry a African American. If there is no effect of such, I wouldn't really care WTF foks like her called themselves. |
Schakspir
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Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1060
Registered: 12-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 12:37 pm: |
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Kola Boof: Do you also believe that Frank Sinatra saw Sammy Davis Jr. as a "Jew" or his brother?
Sammy's wife Altovise says the "rat pack" called Sammy the "n" word as easily as they breathed and that Sinatra was very racist in private.
Schakspir: Sorry, can't find any evidence to back that up. However, he did tell racist jokes, was an asshole, etc., but so did Sammy Davis, and the rest of them. Actually, the Rat Pack acted like a bunch of scumbags. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8869
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 12:58 pm: |
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The Rat Pack was a group of hedonistic jack-offs who tried so hard to project hipness that, in retrospect, they appear almost square. |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 275
Registered: 01-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 09:00 pm: |
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Yukio: Right.... looking like me doesn't not mean a person is free of non-black blood. However in Brazil and Cuba where these people come from it is generally only the pure black people who call themselves black. There are tons of other racial categorizations mixed people can choose. It is the opposite of what it is here. One drop of white or indian blood gives a person a legitimate reason to call themselves black or indian and given the social hierarchy in these countries I generally assume that those who could label themselves as non-black would make that choice. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2279
Registered: 10-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:31 am: |
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"As romantic as you may think my views on other hyphenated Americans are, I can GUARANTEE you that an Italian-American DOES NOT have to travel back 15 generations in his family tree to find an Italian relative. Nor does a............But if they insist upon calling themselves "African-Americans" who am I to stop them?"
Good point. I agree........
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2280
Registered: 10-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:42 am: |
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"Actually, the Rat Pack acted like a bunch of scumbags."
True.....
"The Rat Pack was a group of hedonistic jack-offs who tried so hard to project hipness that, in retrospect, they appear almost square."
True again. They were billed and promoted as the wild bunch who were super cool, enviable, funny, macho, bad ass studs and ultra hip swingers. Sadly, Sammy was the little monkey mascot for these white swinging organ grinders. I can just imagine the abuse he took.
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2281
Registered: 10-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:05 am: |
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"SS: I jumped double-dutch as a girl.
Schak: elsewhere you've said you were a man. WHICH IS IT????"
Done deal! We know now.......
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2282
Registered: 10-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 11:53 am: |
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"Can a white person just grow up among "black" people and participate and immerse themselves in what some people call "African American" or "black" culture and be culturally African American or black?"
Good question. Have you ever talked to black Puerto Ricans, black French or the black Dutch? They consider and define themselves as just that -Puerto Ricans, French and Dutch. When I was in the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, I saw blacks wearing the traditional Middle Eastern Shalwar Kameez and Dishdash. They define themselves by culture. Unfortunately, this fact appalls many black Americans since they believe everything is drawn upon racial lines and not class or culture. Such thinking is flawed since it contradicts reality.
"YES, it would make them Black CULTURALLY. We're talking about culture here - not race. Please don't confuse them."
This is very true Urban_Scribe. Case in point; Many years a go I met a woman through a mutual friend. We talked on the phone for a few months before we actually met. One day, the mutual friend brought her to my place and there she was -a very attractive six foot tall black woman! I never knew she was black (the subject never came up and he never told me). But talking to her over the phone or in person, you would have thought she born and raised raised in Whales! Opposite case was a blue eyed white female who sounded like an everyday black woman. She sounded like Queen Latifa! And she did not have that annoying wannabe wigger inflection in her voice (which I detest) like that ignorant ass white girl who calls herself Buck Wild on that Flavor Flav show and the spin off show (I can't recall the name but Mo'Nique is the host). I just stared at her at times. Even though it was very obvious she was white, I couldn't believe she was that black. She told me she was raised by a black family and that was all she knew. Were either genetically white and black? No! But everything about the two clearly contradicted our traditional notions about race and culture.
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Yukio
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Post Number: 2451
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 03:16 pm: |
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Dahomeyahosi:It is the opposite of what it is here. One drop of white or indian blood gives a person a legitimate reason to call themselves black or indian and given the social hierarchy in these countries I generally assume that those who could label themselves as non-black would make that choice.
Not exactly. Two points: The racial hierarchy there is different [not opposite], because it is more stratified. Second, much like the so-called one drop rule, Cuba's and Brasil's color schema was administered by the Spanish and the Portuguese. Not by people of African descent. The people who call themselves black therefore do not do so necessarily because they are "pure," but because what you and others have called their "slave mentality."
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Dahomeyahosi
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Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 276
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:02 pm: |
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Yukio you're right that the color schema, like most things in the America, are dictated by Europeans. I just prefer this one because it's more in line with my own ideas, regardless of the origins. 2 + 2 is 4, doesn't matter who says it.
I met a Garifuna (sp) family from Honduras who were very proud of their African heritage and blackness but I think this definition is conducive to it. However, I think African pride is much easier to sustain when you are grounded in African spirituality like so many of these people are. Sure Catholicism etc. are mixed in but religions like voudun have always absorbed foreign religions which is why there are so many similarities between the neighboring spirituality Ifa and voudun. For example in Benin you will find pictures of hindu-like goddesses on some shrines. In Haitian voodoo the absorptions of indigenous and European influences are also very present. Absorption is how voudun survives...just as Christians adapted the Easter bunny to Easter and blended Pere Noel and Jesus' birthday. But at the heart voudun remains true to its essence just as these latinos do. In January we celebrate the national day of voudun and there are an astonishing number of latinos who come to Ouidah and other cities to participate. |
Libralind2
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Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 852
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:17 am: |
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Welllllll..I have always said..I have never had a problem with the use of colored as that is what many of us are.."colored" folks of different hues etc..but the "man" fugged that up when he made it a negative..::sigh:: will we ever be able to just be who we are. People who live in America who happen to be different shades, different cultures, clearly different views and all the rest
LiLi..who carries "African-American Black" title with pride...BUT would carry the colored title as well..if it wasnt tainted |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2286
Registered: 10-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:05 pm: |
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"Done deal! We know now......."
In reference to Urban_scribe.............
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8889
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 01:54 pm: |
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I agree with you, LiLi. A perfectly good and accurate word like "colored" was stigmatized by whoever, because it was associated with a bygone era. As if the term "black" wasn't also associated with the past. We are so caught up in labels and buzz words that we create barriers instead of bridges. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) had the gumption to resist the attempts to have its name changed by people with agendas. |
Yukio
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Post Number: 2455
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 02:12 pm: |
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I don't like colored...it is so provincial and 19th century...it has no territorial affiliation, no ancestral identification...African American is problematic for several reasons but colored and negro, imp, are worse! |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2288
Registered: 10-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 02:33 pm: |
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"I don't like colored...it is so provincial and 19th century...it has no territorial affiliation, no ancestral identification...African American is problematic for several reasons but colored and negro, imp, are worse!"
Agreed!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8890
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 02:52 pm: |
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Malcolm X. is so sacrosanct that nobody dares question the widsom of him popularizing the idea that because white people gave black a negative connotation, in order to defy them we should embrace the term black. But where did this eventually lead to? It created a growing rift between those who think blackness is an abstract state of mind and those who think black is a tangible color of skin, and this in turn made black a term of exclusion rather than inclusion. Now we have folks like Toboubie who think all red-bones should be exorcised from the race. We are indeed people of color and black is just one shade to describe the multiple skin tones of slave descendants. And so it goes. |
Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2457
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 08:27 pm: |
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cynique: you have given too much credit to malcolm x. to say "now we have folks..." presumes that people not making the same points before... in fact it wasn't malcolm it was the nation of islam, before that it was garvey, . . . . these ideas of an embrace of blackness have been circulating for a long time... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8897
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 09:17 pm: |
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I didn't say that Malcolm originated the black pride idea, Yukio. Being in the right place at the right time enabled the high profile Malcolm to "popularize" the idea of exchanging the negro label for the black one. He was such a dynamic figure that anything that came out of his mouth had mass appeal in an era of rising rebellion. And the radical idea of actually kicking light-skinned people out of the race seems to be the culmination of something that had its beginnings with black awareness.
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Yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:11 pm: |
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My dearest...i did notice the words "popularize" in your previous post. What I am suggesting to you, and in fact stated, was that the idea was already circulating, and that you gave him too much "credit." Furthermore, Malcolm was not talking about color, like Garvey and our recent lesser incarnations of Garveyism. Malcolm wasn't the darkest brother in the world, and if you listen to what he is saying and look at the constituency of the Nation of Islam it includes the blackest brother to the lightest Puerto Rican.
When he discussed the "black Man," he was talking about people of African descent, more akin to what I, in fact, embrace. |
Enchanted
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Post Number: 867
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:18 am: |
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Quote Malcolm X on race mixing from "Autobiography of Malcolm X": "...you put too much cream in a cup of nice hot black coffee and before you know it you don't have coffee anymore. You've got cold, murky soupy milk that's no good to anybody. A little bit of cream is fine but coffee should be hot and it should always taste like coffee." Just to be fair Cynique is right as Yukio must have 'selectively read' Malcolmx's biography.
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Libralind2
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Post Number: 857
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:29 am: |
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The word colored does not cause me to be any less proud of my African/Hispanic/European/Indian lineage. Its a word that accurately describes what I look like.....not who I am. I am more than a label.
LiLi |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8902
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 02:14 am: |
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Or did I say that Malcolm thought of black as a skin color, Yukio. LOL But once he legitimized the word "black", it took on a life of its own and eventually came to represent different things to different people. And in its present incarnation, it has spawned the "authenticity" movement that rejects light-skinned people. As for giving him too much credit, Malcolm was certainly very influential when it came to "black" replacing the term "negro" in mainstream America |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2459
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 08:25 pm: |
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Enchanted: That quote, from what I remember, about race mixing is about the "integration" as a political objectives for civil rights, as represented by the MLK, not interracial dating.
Cynique: I can work with that one....
Oh, Enchanted...i'm not limited to Malcolm's autobiography....you know he does have speaks, other biographies, special collections at the schomburg...on and on...even comparison's between his phil. and King.... |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2460
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 08:31 pm: |
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Cynique...as you know, communication is all about word choice. So, when you said "now we have folks...," it seemed as if you were saying that he was responsible for the very authenticity issues based on color that some folk practices now....
Malcolm was more interested in black folk being controlled by whites...that is really want the quote Enchanted used is referring to.
Now, I don't have that book in front of me...but he used that metaphor many, many times....it is in fact almost as famous or infamous as the house slave and the field slave metaphor. |
Enchanted
Veteran Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 868
Registered: 11-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 08:32 pm: |
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Yukio all throug Malcolm Xs autobiography and in his publish speeches he blasts race mixing an takes a hard line similar to Garvey you are delusional if you missed all his comment on inter. dating some have said he changed at the end but that not true and he describe his own race mixing and said it destroys the race. This si why I was not in support of him because face it he had his racism too but I do think he meant well for blacks in other ways so Im 50/50 on Malcolm. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2461
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 08:40 pm: |
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LiLi: And there it is....fortunately, we can choose what we want to be called...personally, I really believe that our history, like others, is so diverse that we will not ever be happy with any one form of ethnic identification.
Colored is also a generational form of identification.... |
Sabiana
Regular Poster
Username: Sabiana
Post Number: 121
Registered: 08-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 01:10 am: |
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People of Color Who Never Felt They Were Black Racial Label Surprises Many Latino Immigrants
By Darryl Fears
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 26, 2002; Page A01
At her small apartment near the National Cathedral in Northwest Washington, Maria Martins quietly watched as an African American friend studied a picture of her mother. "Oh," the friend said, surprise in her voice. "Your mother is white."
She turned to Martins. "But you are black."
That came as news to Martins, a Brazilian who, for 30 years before immigrating to the United States, looked in the mirror and saw a morena -- a woman with caramel-colored skin that is nearly equated with whiteness in Brazil and some other Latin American countries. "I didn't realize I was black until I came here," she said.
That realization has come to hundreds of thousands of dark-complexioned immigrants to the United States from Brazil, Colombia, Panama and other Latin nations with sizable populations of African descent. Although most do not identify themselves as black, they are seen that way as soon as they set foot in North America.
Their reluctance to embrace this definition has left them feeling particularly isolated -- shunned by African Americans who believe they are denying their blackness; by white Americans who profile them in stores or on highways; and by lighter-skinned Latinos whose images dominate Spanish-language television all over the world, even though a majority of Latin people have some African or Indian ancestry.
The pressure to accept not only a new language and culture, but also a new racial identity, is a burden some darker-skinned Latinos say they face every day.
"It's overwhelming," said Yvette Modestin, a dark-skinned native of Panama who works as an outreach coordinator in Boston. "There's not a day that I don't have to explain myself."
E. Francisco Lopez, a Venezuelan-born attorney in Washington, said he had not heard the term "minority" before coming to America.
"I didn't know what it meant. I didn't accept it because I thought it meant 'less than,' " said Martins, whose father is black. " 'Where are you from?' they ask me. I say I'm from Brazil. They say, 'No, you are from Africa.' They make me feel like I am denying who I am."
Exactly who these immigrants are is almost impossible to divine from the 2000 Census. Latinos of African, mestizo and European descent -- or any mixture of the three -- found it hard to answer the question "What is your racial origin?"
Some of the nation's 35 million Latinos scribbled in the margins that they were Aztec or Mayan. A fraction said they were Indian. Nearly forty-eight percent described themselves as white, and only 2 percent as black. Fully 42 percent said they were "some other race."
Between Black and White Race matters in Latin America, but it matters differently.
Most South American nations barely have a black presence. In Argentina, Chile, Peru and Bolivia, there are racial tensions, but mostly between indigenous Indians and white descendants of Europeans.
The black presence is stronger along the coasts of two nations that border the Caribbean Sea, Venezuela and Colombia -- which included Panama in the 19th century -- along with Brazil, which snakes along the Atlantic coast. In many ways, those nations have more in common racially with Puerto Rico, Cuba and the Dominican Republic than they do with the rest of South America.
This black presence is a legacy of slavery, just as it is in the United States. But the experience of race in the United States and in these Latin countries is separated by how slaves and their descendants were treated after slavery was abolished.
In the United States, custom drew a hard line between black and white, and Jim Crow rules kept the races separate. The color line hardened to the point that it was sanctioned in 1896 by the Supreme Court in its decision in Plessy v. Ferguson, which held that Homer Plessy, a white-complexioned Louisiana shoemaker, could not ride in the white section of a train because a single ancestor of his was black.
Thus Americans with any discernible African ancestry -- whether they identified themselves as black or not -- were thrust into one category. One consequence is that dark-complexioned and light-complexioned black people combined to campaign for equal rights, leading to the civil rights movement of the 1960s.
By contrast, the Latin countries with a sizable black presence had more various, and more fluid, experiences of race after slavery.
African slavery is as much a part of Brazil's history as it is of the United States's, said Sheila Walker, a visiting professor of anthropology at Spelman College in Atlanta and editor of the book "African Roots/American Cultures." Citing the census in Brazil, she said that nation has more people of African descent than any other in the world besides Nigeria, Africa's most populous country.
Brazil stands out in South America for that and other reasons. Unlike most nations there, its people speak Portuguese rather than Spanish, prompting a debate over whether Brazil is part of the Latino diaspora.
Brazilian slavery ended in 1889 by decree, with no civil war and no Jim Crow -- and mixing between light- and dark-complexioned Indians, Europeans, Africans and mulattos was common and, in many areas, encouraged. Although discrimination against dark-complexioned Brazilians was clear, class played almost as important a role as race.
In Colombia, said Luis Murillo, a black politician in exile from that country, light-complexioned descendants of Spanish conquistadors and Indians created the "mestizo" race, an ideology that held that all mixed-race people were the same. But it was an illusion, Murillo said: A pecking order "where white people were considered superior and darker people were considered inferior" pervaded Colombia.
Murillo said the problem exists throughout Latin American and Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries with noticeable black populations. White Latinos control the governments even in nations with dark-complexioned majorities, he said. And in nations ruled by military juntas and dictators, there are few protests, Murillo said.
In Cuba, a protest by Afro-Cubans led to the arming of the island's white citizens and, ultimately, the massacre of 3,000 to 6,000 black men, women and children in 1912, according to University of Michigan historian Frank Guridy, author of "Race and Politics in Cuba, 1933-34."
American-influenced Cuba was also home to the Ku Klux Klan Kubano and other anti-black groups before Fidel Castro's revolution. Now, Cuban racism still exists, some say, but black, mulatto and white people mix much more freely. Lopez, the Afro-Venezuelan lawyer, said, "Race doesn't affect us there the way it does here," he said. "It's more of a class thing."
Jose Neinstein, a native white Brazilian and executive director of the Brazilian-American Cultural Institute in Washington, boiled down to the simplest terms how his people are viewed. "In this country," he said, "if you are not quite white, then you are black." But in Brazil, he said, "If you are not quite black, then you are white."
The elite in Brazil, as in most Latin American nations, are educated and white. But many brown and black people also belong in that class. Generally, brown Brazilians, such as Martins, enjoy many privileges of the elite, but are disproportionately represented in Brazilian slums.
Someone with Sidney Poitier's deep chocolate complexion would be considered white if his hair were straight and he made a living in a profession. That might not seem so odd, Brazilians say, when you consider that the fair-complexioned actresses Rashida Jones of the television show "Boston Public" and Lena Horne are identified as black in the United States.
Neinstein remembered talking with a man of Poitier's complexion during a visit to Brazil. "We were discussing ethnicity," Neinstein said, "and I asked him, 'What do you think about this from your perspective as a black man?' He turned his head to me and said, 'I'm not black,' " Neinstein recalled. " . . . It simply paralyzed me. I couldn't ask another question."
By the same token, Neinstein said, he never perceived brown-complexioned people such as Maria Martins, who works at the cultural institute, as black. One day, when an African American custodian in his building referred to one of his brown-skinned secretaries as "the black lady," Neinstein was confused. "I never looked at that woman as black," he said. "It was quite a revelation to me."
Those perceptions come to the United States with the light- and dark-complexioned Latinos who carry them. But here, they collide with two contradictory forces: North American prejudice and African American pride.
'I've Learned to Be Proud' Vilson DaSilva, a native of Brazil, is a moreno. Like his wife, Maria Martins, he was born to a black father and a white mother. But their views on race seem to differ.
During an interview when Martins said she had no idea how they had identified themselves on the 2000 Census form, DaSilva rolled his eyes. "I said we were black," he said.
He is one of a growing number of Latin immigrants of African descent who identify themselves as Afro-Latino, along the same color spectrum as African Americans.
"I've learned to be proud of my color," he said. For that, he thanked African American friends who stand up for equal rights.
An emerging cadre of Latinos in Washington are embracing their African identities and speaking out against what they say is a white Latino establishment, in the U.S. and abroad.
Lopez, the Afro-Venezuelan lawyer, who lives in Columbia Heights, said there was prejudice even in such Hispanic civil rights organizations as the League of United Latin American Citizens, the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Educational Fund and the National Council of La Raza, where, he said, few dark-complexioned Latinos work in the offices or sit on the board. "La Raza? Represent me? Absolutely not," Lopez said.
Charles Kamasaki, an analyst for La Raza, disagreed. "I don't think you can make snap judgments like that," he said. "The way race is played out in Latino organizations is different. There are dark-complexioned people on our board, but I don't know if they identify as Afro-Latino. Our president is mestizo. I would resist the assertion that this organization is excluding anyone because of race."
Yvette Modestin, the black Panamanian who identifies as an Afro-Latina, said that although she accepts her blackness, she's also an immigrant who speaks Spanish. In other words, she's not a black American. "My brother's married to a Mexican," she said. "My brother's been called a sellout by black women while walking down the street with his wife. They are both Latino. They think he married outside his race."
DaSilva agreed that nuances separate African Americans and Afro-Latinos, but he also believes that seeing Latin America through African American eyes gave him a better perspective. Unfortunately, he said, it also made him angrier and more stressed.
When DaSilva returned to Brazil for a visit, he asked questions he had never asked, and got answers that shocked him.
His mother told him why her father didn't speak to her for 18 years: "It was because she married a black man," he said. One day, DaSilva's own father pulled him aside to provide his son some advice. " 'You can play around with whoever you want,' " DaSilva recalled his father saying, " 'but marry your own kind.' " So DaSilva married Martins, the morena of his dreams.
She is dreaming of a world with fewer racial barriers, a world she believes she left in Brazil to be with her husband in Washington.
As Martins talked about the nation's various racial blends in her living room, her 18-month-old son sat in front of the television, watching a Disney cartoon called "The Proud Family," about a merged black American and black Latino family. The characters are intelligent, whimsical, thoughtful, funny, with skin tones that range from light to dark brown.
The DaSilvas said they would never see such a show on Latin American TV.
Martins said her perspective on race was slowly conforming to the American view, but it saddened her. She doesn't understand why she can't call a pretty black girl a negrita, the way Latin Americans always say it, with affection. She doesn't understand why she has to say she's black, seeming to deny the existence of her mother.
"Sometimes I say she is black on the outside and white on the inside," DaSilva said of his wife, who threw her head back and laughed.
2002 The Washington Post Company
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2462
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 07:08 am: |
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enchanted: first, what cynique and I was discussing wasn't about "race mixing." It was about skin color, about darker skinned blacks claiming that light skinned blacks were not authentic blacks.
Cynique wrote:
It created a growing rift between those who think blackness is an abstract state of mind and those who think black is a tangible color of skin, and this in turn made black a term of exclusion rather than inclusion. Now we have folks like Toboubie who think all red-bones should be exorcised from the race. We are indeed people of color and black is just one shade to describe the multiple skin tones of slave descendants. And so it goes.
Thus, race mixing is ancillary to this conversation, especially since you do not have to be "biracial" to be "redbone." Cynique, as I understand, is talking about plain ol' colorism.
Second, like most things, it is all about context, close reading, and familiarity with whom he was engaging. Yes, he did not embrace "race mixing." But I never questioned that. Thus, how could I be delusional?
But his main focus, and the quote to which you referred, is Malcolm equating integration--sitting at a lunch counter with white folks--with diluting his coffee [black people] w/cream [white people].
Thus, it is not a matter of finding examples of him "blast[ing] race mixing," but understanding his point.
For example, the march on washington of 1963, according to malcolm x, initially having progressive goals and being commandeered by the Kennedy administration. Asking for integration, sitting next to white people, instead of land, an independent black nation. |
Libralind2
Veteran Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 859
Registered: 09-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
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What kills me are India people..(from India..to be clear)..black as coal who identify with whites.
LiLI |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2464
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 01:50 pm: |
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LiLi: it is what they were socialized to think..., and there are the dalits who often identify as black:
http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/afrodalit.htm
The lesson, I believe, is that history determines how we see ourselves and that there is no one way of self-identification. |
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