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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5490
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 02:32 am: | 
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Interesting - In this week's Mocha Moms, three white women discuss their experiences mothering sons of color. They talk candidly about the joys and the challenges. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10184987
I was struck by the comment of the woman who admits that she coaches her son on how to behave in front of the police. The police are "good people", she says, they just perceive Black boys like her son the wrong way. Like that's ok. |
Americansista
Regular Poster
Username: Americansista
Post Number: 359
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 10:12 am: |
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Oh shyt---Tonya this might turn into a FREEPOST!!!! LMMFAO.
Anyhoo, I believe that a lot of white women with children mixed with black are CLUELESS as to what experiences black folks encounter when it comes to the police.
It's funny because I'll be watching those "World's Deadliest Police Chases" and see these drunk-off-their-azzes peckawood males cussing at cops, throwing their tickets in their faces, etc. and the cop never even blinks or gets loud.
Now---let that be a black man.
That cop would bust his head to the white meat.
"perceive" black boys and MEN the wrong way my azz. They are just your typical, white racist, punk bytch cops that got their fuking azzes kicked all through out highschool.
Take away their guns and their badges and they're still those same scary azz, always-in-need-of-back-up, mealy mouthed, white garbage bastards cowering in the corner of the locker room after getting OWNED and punked. |
Enchanted
Veteran Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 842
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 10:20 am: |
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These are going learn the hard way but not all white mother are bad many with black kids are great. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4400
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 10:31 am: |
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Lots of white people just will not admit what is happening out here, especially to other black people. This is as dangerous or maybe even more dangerous than lying.
Few white women would be ready to raise a black boy. They could never bring themselves to tell him the truth. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2045
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 10 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:16 am: |
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Thanks for this, Tonya--very interesting. I hope folks do actually listen to this piece. Many of these moms seem more aware and do have more of a clue than most White folks about these issues. You can tell they're not "fully there" yet, and it was unfortunate that due to time constraints some of these issues couldn't be delved into more. (For example the woman talking about Black women's reactions to her and her husband and attributing it to him being good looking! What was that about? LOL)
But I was happy to hear this theme of a willingness--as one woman said--"to do the work." Another said something like once you become a parent of a Black child fighting racism becomes your number one job. I have found that women in these situations sometimes can be more intentional about addressing racism than some middle class Black people I know. (I say "sometimes" because I also still see an attitude of "colorblindness" and racism-denial among some transracial/transnational adoptive parents or White parents of Black children.)
I think sometimes we can take for granted what our children are "getting" from us just by virtue of us being Black like them. I know this has been something I have had to work on in my personal life as a parent. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8602
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 01:24 pm: |
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I mentioned before that there's a guy who has written this book, instructing young black boys on how to "arrest-proof" themselves. The key is to remember that white cops are afraid of young black men. So they have to be psyched out, their fears allayed, their egos stroked. According to the author of the book, this involves making eye-contact, standing up straight, keeping your hands visible, not trying to run away and - addressing a policeman as "officer." This instills the confidence that makes them less likely to panic and kill you. (Lotsa luck in using this technique on black cops.) There is, however, no way to "gang-proof" your black child. Half of the kids killed are innocent bystanders caught in the line of fire, or victims of mistaken identity. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4405
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 01:37 pm: |
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There is no way to arrest proof yourself. They might need to run somebody in and you are going in whether you like it or not. They might have a victim nearby wanting to look you over and they are going to cuff you, put you in the car and take you over there whether you like it or not.
God help your black ass if they say its you. I knew a man who had 50 arrests for the most horrible crimes and no convictions. He was a bum. The cops would tell him they needed to haul somebody in on a case to make it look like they were doing something. They'd be nice and apolgetic.
They see their job as putting the fear into young guys so they stay out of trouble. Also young guys are less likely to know anybody or raise a stink so they pick on them. They pick on black young guys even more because of this.
You got to take it if you don't want to die.
What you are trying to do is not to be killed or injured which they have been hired to do if necessary. You are doing this for yourself and for your parents and loved ones.
Don't make any sudden moves. Do not respond to any provocations no matter how insulting. Follow any directions that will not result in physical injury. Humiliation or ruining clothes might be in order depending upon the situation. Sometimes they want to punk you in front of a girl because they are in the mood. Balance getting punked against getting jailed, injured or killed.
Do not ask questions. Only answer them. Respond clearly. Can the smiling. They might think you are getting smart and slap the piss out of you. If they decide to run you in do not ask why, do not object, go on in quietly. This is what John Gotti did. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8608
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 02:57 pm: |
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I guess the author of this book was giving some "helpful hints" to innocent black youths who are stopped by the cops; not guys with a record or hardened criminals. It's too late for them. |
Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1918
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 04:09 pm: |
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This entire "chat" was kinda weird, to say the least. When one woman said (paraphrasing) that "she's part of the club", I thought she was way off-base. Though black women mothering black children and white women with biracial children share similiar experiences raising non-white children, the socialization experience is different. Neither one is good or bad - just different. And I don't think Mocha Moms is a place for white women -I've been asked to join a local group and didn't. And I don't think other white women should be part of such groups.
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Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2050
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 04:51 pm: |
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Moonsigns, I did not find it weird (tho I'd be interested to hear why you did, if you feel comfortable discussing here). But I did find myself frustrated that comments such as the one you mentioned were allowed to be thrown out without further probing. Partly it was time, partly having too many women on the panel. But the topic deserved much more depth than this piece gave it.
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Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 07:42 pm: |
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Americansista: It's funny because I'll be watching those "World's Deadliest Police Chases" and see these drunk-off-their-azzes peckawood males cussing at cops, throwing their tickets in their faces, etc. and the cop never even blinks or gets loud.
Now---let that be a black man.
That cop would bust his head to the white meat.
Schakspir: What's on TV isn't real. That shit has to be staged. Those cracker cops would kick the shit out of a white man in real life. Black women, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5RI8_1BSiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaHyuWgir8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igPApH7UXNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3CdNgoC0cE
This is the tip of the iceberg.
Cops are assholes(generally). If they can do this shit to whites(and black women), imagine what they do to us. And the pathetic thing is, everyone in this country is absolutely apathetic about it. |
Serenasailor
Veteran Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 07:42 pm: |
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This bullshyt is going to continue to happen as long as you got these "Whack ass", busted Black men who use these White bytches and there mixed kids as some kind of "perverse" status symbol.
These punk ass Black men like the ones on here who discriminate against Black women for no other reasons than looking like there mothers. Black men who reduce women to skin color and hair texture.
White women don't respect Black men. They never have. But they would be a fool not to take advantage of one. And these ol busted ass, 400Ibs White women need someone who will love and appreciate them. They have to make up for all the White men who are Gay, opting to marry Asians, or just having higher standards in White women. |
Serenasailor
Veteran Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 1599
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 07:45 pm: |
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DAMN WILL YOUR REAL BLACK MEN PLEASE STAND UP??? The "real" Black men who love there skin, hair, and ancestors. The Black men who are married to Black women. The Black men who "stick around" and raise there sons. The Black men who don't see the need to berate Black women for there own insecurities.
Where you at???? |
Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1924
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:51 pm: |
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Yvettep,
When I have more time tomorrow, I will respond more indepth; however, quickly, I agree with you that the topic deserves more time than it was given.
And a quick question for you; what do you think about Disney's "Maddy" (The Frog Princess - due out in 2009)? I'd like to know your opinion.
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Robynmarie
Regular Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 448
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:04 am: |
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One woman mentioned "getting dirty looks from black women" when she is with her black husband.
Sounds like such a stereotype.
I wonder what kind of looks she gets from white people?
Why do these women act like they are doing something so grand and noble by marrying a non-white person? Smells like supremacy once again...
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Serenasailor
Veteran Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:29 am: |
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It is White Supremacy and no one sees it. To get these Black men to "water" themselves down is the key. That is why White women like Moony come on here to "wallow" around in Black ppl"s pain and suffering. To promote her slave owning daddy's beliefs.
Why don't these women start there own communities. So them and there mixed children can try to "Whiten" themselves even more. And these Black men can "indulge" in there self-hatred. |
Robynmarie
Regular Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 450
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:45 am: |
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Just about every black site I read, has a contigent of white women who post and post and pontificate and post and scold the African Americans who challenge them, calling them "racist" LOL
SS: what you say could explain why white women choose black men, but why do black men choose white women? Do some men like being "watered down"?
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Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2174
Registered: 08-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 01:34 am: |
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What I don't understand is how they can teach "how to be black" without ever having been so themselves. And you know no non-white person will ever be in any position to tell a child (even a half white child) how to be white, and they won't accept anyone even trying to.
Robynmarie, if I may give you my opinion....some black men have deluded themselves with this one drop rule. Remember, with this rule any white woman can have a BLACK child, not bi-racial, so basically he has NO NEED for a black woman anymore.
This is definitely white supremacy at work: a black woman can ONLY give birth to a black child, never to a white child. A white woman can not only give birth to a white child, she can have black children too. So, basically, there's no need for us anymore.
And the same people who accept the one-drop rule wonder why black men who want "black children" don't marry black women for them....the one drop rule has made us unnecessary for birthing any.
Think about it: when a white man wants a white child.....only one woman will do. When a black man wants a black child......ANY woman will do, so he doesn't need us. |
Americansista
Regular Poster
Username: Americansista
Post Number: 362
Registered: 09-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 09:27 am: |
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One woman mentioned "getting dirty looks from black women" when she is with her black husband.
Sounds like such a stereotype.
I wonder what kind of looks she gets from white people?
Why do these women act like they are doing something so grand and noble by marrying a non-white person? Smells like supremacy once again...
...OKAY?! PREACH!!!!
It is White Supremacy and no one sees it. To get these Black men to "water" themselves down is the key. That is why White women like Moony come on here to "wallow" around in Black ppl"s pain and suffering. To promote her slave owning daddy's beliefs.
Why don't these women start there own communities. So them and there mixed children can try to "Whiten" themselves even more. And these Black men can "indulge" in there self-hatred.
Just about every black site I read, has a contigent of white women who post and post and pontificate and post and scold the African Americans who challenge them, calling them "racist" LOL
SS: what you say could explain why white women choose black men, but why do black men choose white women? Do some men like being "watered down"?
What I don't understand is how they can teach "how to be black" without ever having been so themselves. And you know no non-white person will ever be in any position to tell a child (even a half white child) how to be white, and they won't accept anyone even trying to.
Robynmarie, if I may give you my opinion....some black men have deluded themselves with this one drop rule. Remember, with this rule any white woman can have a BLACK child, not bi-racial, so basically he has NO NEED for a black woman anymore.
This is definitely white supremacy at work: a black woman can ONLY give birth to a black child, never to a white child. A white woman can not only give birth to a white child, she can have black children too. So, basically, there's no need for us anymore.
And the same people who accept the one-drop rule wonder why black men who want "black children" don't marry black women for them....the one drop rule has made us unnecessary for birthing any.
Think about it: when a white man wants a white child.....only one woman will do. When a black man wants a black child......ANY woman will do, so he doesn't need us.
VERY GOOD observations and opinions! Yall are on FIYAH!!!!
I co-sign 10000%!!!!!!!!
 |
Robynmarie
Regular Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 452
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:48 am: |
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Oh yeah, I am suspect of any woman black or white who would belong to a group called "Mocha Moms" LMAO> |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2179
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:10 am: |
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LOL...I almost joined the Atlanta chapter. I just decided not to...no big reason. I didn't do any in-depth investigation of them, but from what I understand, it was just a group of black stay at home mothers who were just looking for other black women friends. |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2180
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:15 am: |
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They would do things like meet for lunch or plan halloween parties for the kids....hardly earth shattering stuff. |
Robynmarie
Regular Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 453
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:58 am: |
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^^^ nothing wrong with that. As a single mom who always worked, sounds good to me. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8609
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 12:26 pm: |
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You can't tell a child how to be black or white, but presumably you can tell a child how to ACT black or white if we are to believe the observations on this board. Bi-racial children need special guidance so why wouldn't their parents try and give them some? Why individual couples of different races marry ain't nobody's business but their own. All the speculation and condemnation from outsiders who want to politicize love and inject all kinds of theories into the dynamic of it is just a lot of blather. People marry for many many different reasons. That's their choice and their right. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4412
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 01:28 pm: |
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I guess the author of this book was giving some "helpful hints" to innocent black youths who are stopped by the cops; not guys with a record or hardened criminals. It's too late for them.
(If you weren't a woman you wouldn't make that statement
A Black MAN would know that it don't matter whether he has on a $3,000 suit or is buck naked--whether you are a criminal or Jesus Christ-- he is the enemy.
You ever see how two rams butt heads trying to see who is the best? This is two men under almost any circumstance which is why white men give preference to black women in hiring, because if they hire any kind of MAN they are going to be butting heads with him some time and he don't want to be doing it with no n***a.
Point in fact--the local black owner of a fine restaurant was verbally assaulted as he sat at the wheel of his mercedes autombile, dressed to the nines by a cop who called him a "dope dealer" and a "pimp"--man has no record.
This is a MAN thang Cynique. It is a BALLS thang. It don't have a damn thing to do with who you are where you are if you and the man with the gun and the stick strike it wrong it's on.
It's something you don't know and will never know anything about because in a confrontational situation you can always fall back upon being a woman and a MAN cannot.
I knew you would have to f*** up sooner or later on here.
And you know what? If it was me on the other side, and I had had a bad day, and maybe my woman hadn't gave me none, and I got a mf that I just didn't like, because he looked like he was doing better than me I would act the same way and make my day by cutting him down to size, which is why I ain't a cop.
Talk, in the future about what you KNOW about. Like maybe canning preserves or baking pies or living in Mayberry.
Have a nice day. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4413
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 01:31 pm: |
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Schakspir: What's on TV isn't real. That shit has to be staged. Those cracker cops would kick the shit out of a white man in real life. Black women, too.
(Here is somebody else who don't know what the hell they talking about.
White cops DON'T do that to white perps. There have been cases here where white perps have SHOT and KILLED white cops, and the cops take the perps alive.
Black people are killed everyday for LOOKING funny.
Don't try to tell us about stuff you don't know anything about. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4414
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 01:31 pm: |
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SOMEBODY COME ON HERE AND SHOW ME A WHITE MAN WHO WAS SHOT AT 41 TIMES REACHING FOR HIS WALLET?
IT DON'T HAPPEN IN AMERICA. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4415
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 01:36 pm: |
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This morning radio host Richard Onion Horton told his black man arrest story. This man has no record.
He was driving down the street when the cops stopped him. They approached his car with guns drawn.
"We been looking for you for two years," they snarled.
"I'm on the radio from 6-10 everyday," he quipped.
Bad career move.
They arrested him. Took him down. Brought two white women in to look at him.
"You know this is not the man," one said. "We told you he was young, over six feet tall and light skinned. He don't look like that."
He was released to walk back to his car from downtown.
All those white women would have had to have done is said it was him and he was gone. |
Americansista
Regular Poster
Username: Americansista
Post Number: 363
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 01:36 pm: |
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^^^
OKAY?!
And show me a white man getting gunned down one day BEFORE his wedding. Show me one that was knocked senseless at the age of 16 at a gas station for NOTHING? Show me one that had a baton shoved up his anus for NOTHING.
White cops (and some of the black ones) are notorious for beating up black people, especially black men. I really think they get a nut off of it. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4417
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 01:52 pm: |
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How many people have been cleared by DNA testing?
How many of them were black men convicted of raping white women?
How many were black men convicted of raping BLACK women?
How many were WHITE MEN convicted of raping ANYBODY?
Don't even try to run up here with that "everybody is treated the same" foolishness. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8614
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 02:30 pm: |
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Well, chrishayden. What this guy advocates in this book is what my husband always told our sons: to avoid acting suspicious and to address the policeman as "officer". I've seen it work just recently when me and my "middle" son were driving through a suburb with a "reputation" and we were stopped for - not having our seat belts on. This is my free-spirited son whe tends to live on the edge and he went into his personable "is there a problem, officer?" act because he knew he might be in deep shit in case of the probability of having a warrant on his drivers license. Well, the cop was so taken aback by his friendly attitude that he let us go after checking our insurance card, not even bothering to run his license through. Sooooo, it just depends. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4423
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 02:59 pm: |
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Answer those questions above or get off this board! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8617
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 03:01 pm: |
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I don't have to get off the board. Quit going off on tangents, trying to make the black experience over in your image. |
Robynmarie
Regular Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 454
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 03:05 pm: |
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Why do people automatically assume interracial couples get together for "love" and no other reason?
Why is it okay to speculate on the myraid of reasons 70% of black women allegedly are unmarried (I don't accept that stat, btw) and not question why black men choose to date/marry outside of the race at a higher rate than black women? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8619
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 03:17 pm: |
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Why black men marry white women might be obvious. But white women marry black men for many different reasons but I certainly don't think they marry them because they're white supremists who are co-conspirators in a plot to wipe out the black race. This may eventually happen but it will be nature taking its course and the end product will be no white than it is black. IMO |
Latina_wi
Regular Poster
Username: Latina_wi
Post Number: 363
Registered: 08-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 05:23 pm: |
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Brilliant topic (though I am not reaaly clued up about what 'mocha mums' is).
RENATA this comment: This is definitely white supremacy at work: a black woman can ONLY give birth to a black child, never to a white child. A white woman can not only give birth to a white child, she can have black children too. So, basically, there's no need for us anymore.
Hit me like a bullet, never looked at it that way before. You could interpretate it that way. Robynmarie, a lot of what you said is on point.
In my opnion, if you raise your child to become too self-concious about their race and/or the fact they are mixed then they will forver be defensive and sensitive about the subject. They will look for slights. Being a parent and educationg your child is the most paramount thing to me. It is hard for me to comment as I have never had pickney lol, but just giving my 'two cents'.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5521
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:55 pm: |
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You all have made so many REALLY good points.
Renata, Whew! DEEP |
Americansista
Regular Poster
Username: Americansista
Post Number: 365
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 09:26 am: |
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Latina Wi: Do you always try making the most P.C. responses possible as to not insult anyone? Just curious. |
Americansista
Regular Poster
Username: Americansista
Post Number: 366
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 09:29 am: |
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Why do people automatically assume interracial couples get together for "love" and no other reason?
Great fuking question, lol.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 4779
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 10:09 am: |
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I haven't read this whole thread but my question would be - where is the babydaddy??? Shouldn't he be the one who is helping in raising the Black son and demonstrating how to be a Black man??? And if he's not around, where is the substitute babydaddy??? ALL children need a man around (especially boys) and I'm not talking about a trick.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8634
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:28 am: |
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Robynmarie asks: "Why do people automatically assume interracial couples get together for "love" and no other reason?"
Cynique responds: Besides "love", what other reason would a white woman have for marrying a black man, - except for the "love" of his money??? And black men apparently find it just as easy to "love" a white woman as a black woman. So people like me "automatically" assume that "love" fits into the bm/wm equation.
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4430
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:11 pm: |
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I've seen it work just recently when me and my "middle" son were driving through a suburb with a "reputation" and we were stopped for - not having our seat belts on.
(This is what I have to deal with everyday.
Now imagine Cynique and her son in the car. Two Negroes old as Methuselah. Looked like Uncle Ben and Aunt Hattie.
Even I do not believe the most racist cop in the United States would shoot the two of them.
This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about people who look like they can do some harm to them--not two old mummies! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8637
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:42 pm: |
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Yes, chrishayuden, you always have to cast yourself in the role of the heroic black man, up against it, clutching your head in despair, at the bottom of the heap. You ain't nothing but a marginalized character living vicariously through the kind of people you in your comfortable middle class life can only talk about. Have you aver been arrested by a cop and been beaten up? Ever been in prison? STFU, you big quivering mound of whale blubber. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 4784
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:57 pm: |
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I think that love is about the last reason why people should get married.
And speaking of love:
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8640
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 01:06 pm: |
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Yea, look at chrishayden and Tonya kissing. barf. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4434
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 04:52 pm: |
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Have you aver been arrested by a cop and been beaten up?
(I have been arrested. I have been stopped. I have been in jail.
I wasn't beaten up because they had already taken it out on somebody allready.
If I stopped you and your decrepit old son, driving your Model T Ford and looking like a Chocolate Fibber McGee and Molly, EVEN I wouldn't have the heart to mistreat you if you had 400 pounds of dope, 15 shotguns and two 14 year old girls tied up in the trunk. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4435
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 04:54 pm: |
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Let me tell you. I'd rather be stopped by the most vicious,racist, psychopathic WHITE cop in the world than a black cop on a tear.
Man you are really dead if you run up on one of those, man or woman.
They are just ITCHIN' to smoke a n***a to show they ain't playin' favorites. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8645
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 05:54 pm: |
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Big friggin deal. What were you arrested for, chrissy? Indecent exposure. Shaking your limp dick in public? I'll bet you and your wanna-be self were just wallowing in the thrill of being like all those street guys you think are sooo cool, not the mention the prospect of maybe getting poked in your fat ass by your cell mate. BTW, my son is a lot younger than you and your old 55 year old self. LMAO. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4441
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 10:37 am: |
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I went to jail for participating in a student demonstration in Champaign, Illinois when we were trying to get decent housing for several female black students who were sleeping on ironing boards in the basement while rooms were held vacant.
Sticking up for black women. Something you have never done in your whole miserably snitching life.
I bet you feel like a big fool now, don't you you old crone? I guess now you can make like a bat and flap on out of here! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8647
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 11:08 am: |
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I'm totally unimpressed, chrishayden. I guess when you arrived on the U of I campus everything went into a tailspin because when I was there before you in 1951 -1953 the women's dorms were integrated and anybody who couldn't afford living in a dorm stayed in private residences rented out by the townsfolk. And that's fact. Not some ol concocted crap you're trying to give yourself credit for. I lived in first in house at Busey Hall and then at Evans Hall and I had friends who stayed the Lincoln Hall. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 4447
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 11:52 am: |
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When you was up there you stayed in the back of the dorm with the mops and brooms. This apparently warped your mind and now you go around thinking you are Katherine Hepburn. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8650
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 12:22 pm: |
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What a lame attempt at trying to discredit the truth, chrishayden. And you have nerve enough to be bragging about demonstrating for women to have a place to sleep. When I was on campus the real men demonstrated for the right to go to campus barbershops. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 4792
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 12:43 pm: |
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Could you get it on, on an ironing board? Hmmmmm. I wonder  |
Misty
Veteran Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 899
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 09:11 am: |
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just to play devils advocate, i have to ask do any of us truely know what the black experience is? just look at the people on this board arguing (and disagreeing) over rather or not there is a certain way a person can act around the cops......we have 1 black on here arguing that the cops would also bash a white mans head in and the others disagreeing. kind of makes me wonder would a black be any more equipped to raise a "black" or biracial child than a white person since we can't even agree on that small aspect. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8652
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 12:04 pm: |
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The point I've always tried to make is that the black experience is different things to different people. There are 30 million black Americans in this country. It's foolish to think that they have all lived the same kind of lives. There is commonality to being black but there is also variation. The problem starts when people overwrought with emotion and anger but who have no consensus or authority take it upon themselves to declare who is and who isn't "black". Blackness in America is an anomaly which is why unity eludes us. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2350
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 12:55 pm: |
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Why do these women act like they are doing something so grand and noble by marrying a non-white person? Smells like supremacy once again...
Part of the reason is, for so many years some of our "leaders" had been embracing social integration--and then to make things worse King talked about his daughter and white folk walking hand and hand rubbish--that white people, and some blacks, got it in their heads that so-called integration meant being racially democratic.
And so the ability to love a black woman or black man, helps some white people pat themselves on the back...so that they can say, I'm not racist.... |
Moonsigns
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Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 10:59 pm: |
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Yvette,
In my opinion, there is somewhat of a tension between SOME black women and SOME white women, regarding the raising of non-white/biracial children. On one hand, the "some" black women I'm speaking (specifically) of - and certainly NOT ALL black women - will quickly point out how a biracial child is not black; but on the other hand, will be extremely judgemental, as well as question, how a white woman can properly raise a non-white child. And all along, the conversation that is avoided is the one that most needs to be discussed - biracial children being raised by white mothers WILL, in general, have a different experience than that of a black child being raised by a black mother. And, again, I'm not saying one is good or bad, they are simply different. Therefore, when an organization like "Mocha Moms" hosts a "panel" like this, I think it's weird, because people try to act as if this double-standard, so to speak, doesn't exisit. It's almost like they're showcasing these particular white women in attempts to undermine their ability and desire to raise healthy biracial children. And to me, doing stuff like that - playing games like that -is very backhanded.
And, yes, I know that there are white women who have biracial children that are way off base - like the woman who made the "club" comment and the "husband" comment. How ridiculous! But on the other hand, there are white women that are extremely aware of the world in which we live - very aware of the racism and prejudice that exisits - and they very much advocate for their child/children's respect and God-given right to simply "be", just as they are, in this present world.
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Toubobie
Regular Poster
Username: Toubobie
Post Number: 291
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 02:21 am: |
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...slight detour, but do any black people on this board feel the need to take a vacation from yt? to clear your head? not on some hatred sh*t, just to not have to look at them, smell them, speak to them.... Do you get tired of it all at times? I'm curious. Tell me this... is there ANYWHERE on earth where we don't have to look at them and be able to sustain a living? YT does not understand that we "tolerate" them... if most of us had a choice, we'd rather have nothing to do with them, or deal with them a lot less.
P.S. These white women are doing us a favor, ladies-- taking 'our' men. Y would we want to create a black skinned child who will inevitably be despised by his/her black father, just as the black father despises himself? ADOPT! |
Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1943
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 08:40 am: |
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Toubobie,
You make an interesting point, and what I find even more interesting about is, a lot of people - from various walks of life - also live day-to day simply "tolerating" those that aren't like them. So, in regards to practicing "tolerance", Blacks are no exception.
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Americansista
Regular Poster
Username: Americansista
Post Number: 367
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 09:35 am: |
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...slight detour, but do any black people on this board feel the need to take a vacation from yt? to clear your head? not on some hatred sh*t, just to not have to look at them, smell them, speak to them.... Do you get tired of it all at times? I'm curious. Tell me this... is there ANYWHERE on earth where we don't have to look at them and be able to sustain a living? YT does not understand that we "tolerate" them... if most of us had a choice, we'd rather have nothing to do with them, or deal with them a lot less.
P.S. These white women are doing us a favor, ladies-- taking 'our' men. Y would we want to create a black skinned child who will inevitably be despised by his/her black father, just as the black father despises himself? ADOPT!
*whistles and then screams, "Can the chuch get an amen?!* |
Toubobie
Regular Poster
Username: Toubobie
Post Number: 292
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 10:30 am: |
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Moonshine,
I couldn't have put it better myself. "Blacks are no exception." It's about damn time, too. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5547
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:47 am: |
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"just to play devils advocate, i have to ask do any of us truely know what the black experience is? just look at the people on this board arguing (and disagreeing) over rather or not there is a certain way a person can act around the cops......we have 1 black on here arguing that the cops would also bash a white mans head in and the others disagreeing. kind of makes me wonder would a black be any more equipped to raise a "black" or biracial child than a white person since we can't even agree on that small aspect."
Color, gender and class determine the degree to which one is burdened by the "Black experience". Considering that class depends on color in our community, generally, and gender becomes an issue for Black women only when they're dark-skinned, color is the dominate factor of how the "Black experience" is felt.
I agree with you and Yvette. These white women are doing a much better job than a lot of middle class Black people. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2351
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 11:57 am: |
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Moonsigns, what exactly is the double standard? All the variables are different...usually in the case of a double standard, the what is done--raising a child--is the same, and the parent--a white woman or black woman--is what is different.
But one is raising a "biracial" child and the other "monoracial/black child."
I would suspect that if a "black child" was raised by a white woman then that experience would also be different from the experience of a biracial child raised by a white woman....
The difficulty is this....this is a racist as country, and while all black people aint the same, regardless of your intent, how "much [you] advocate for [your] child/children's respect and God-given right to simply "be", just as they are, in this present world," you are not a black woman and you can not understand that experience raising a black child. And the experience of being a black person or a "biracial" person. You are always looking on the outside looking in..., always.
This doesn't mean you should take b.s. from foolish people--regardless of their race--but you need to understand where it is coming from, and respect that in this society--there is a hierarchy. We are below don't ever forget that...and your biracial child is above the black child, don't ever forget it....I'm talking about as a group. We live as individuals, but we operate through the power of our group...
You often focus on people's actions as if they are done in a vacuum or that all of this is done on a plane where all is equal...it aint!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9362
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:00 pm: |
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Yukio,
Nicely done, bruh. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5548
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:02 pm: |
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If you want a definition for the Black experience check your history Books. It's right there. The Black experience has not changed. People changed. And that change was brought about by the act of breeding out.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2352
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:09 pm: |
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Not exactly Tonya, a better way to think of the so-called black experience is what Amiri Baraka calls the "the changing same." |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8654
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:10 pm: |
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People are their own history books. Nowadays if you have cold black skin but your parents are professionals and are able to give you the better things in life then your experience will be somewhat different from a light-skinned person who lives in the ghetto. Bottom line: The black experience has both commonality and variation. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5550
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:16 pm: |
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Yukio,
You don't even acknowledge the Black experience, seems like you don't believe that it exists, so what makes you think you know the better way to think of it?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8655
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:34 pm: |
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Your best course of action is to play it by ear, Moonsigns, when it comes to raising bi-racial children. Sometimes you can learn from getting feed back from the kids themselves. They are, in a way, more expert on this subject than either of their single-raced parents. Any child who is "different" will encounter problems growing up, so all a parent can do is to try and exercise situational good judgment and give their children unconditional love. I always been amused by the fact that no amount of viriole from black folks on this board ever seems to phase you, Moonie. I wonder if you are aware of the source of your indifference to your black detractors? LOL But, I still like you, anyway. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5551
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:47 pm: |
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I don't know if this was the point Moonsigns was making but I do remember several of the women on this panel admitting that COLOR made a difference. Raising a child that came out looking bi-racial is a different experience than raising one that came out looking Black. It's a realism that can't be overlooked.
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Robynmarie
Regular Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 458
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 02:44 pm: |
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Tonya-
Why do you believe gender only matters for "dark skinned women"? Doesn't gender bias happen to women regardless of color? Is there a notion that light skinned women don't worry about walking outside at night by themselves, being discriminated on the job or getting weight related diseases? |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2355
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 09:33 pm: |
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Tonya,
To say "The Black experience has not changed. People changed. And that change was brought about by the act of breeding out," as you have, is to presume one the various struggles--civil rights, black power, and black women's movements--had no effect on African Americans[or black people] and that those struggles do not account for many of the opportunties that we enjoy now. And two, that the issues that have changed the black experience have mostly in the present to do with "breeding out."
This presumption omits intra-African American class conflict, African American-black immigrant conflict, intra-"minority" conflict, intra-African American gender conflict, etc....I can go on and on...like E. Badu! This is why something have changed, but racism againt gone, and black unity[as represented by this exchange] is clearly not something we can take for granted.
Now, I'm not sure why you would make the egregious claim that I "don't even acknowledge the Black experience," but from where I am standing, it seems you either know very little about the so-called black experience and/or that it is soley a question of the plight of the dark skinned black women. I say "seems" because, while your statement above points to a provincialism, I have read enough of your posts to know that you are also concerned about class issues among other things....
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5553
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 01:21 am: |
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Robynmarie,
Of course light-skinned women suffer from sexism; all women do, though I believe dark-skinned women suffer the most from that too. Anyway, I meant gender in connection with the Black experience. Colorism harms and/or maims light-skinned women....sometimes....but it also benefits them, whereas with dark-skinned women it usually does not. I say usually because some dark-skinned women benefit from colorism as well (i.e., straight hair, slim features, ect). But generally speaking dark-skinned women experience it more while light skinned ones seem to benefit from it more than they are disadvantaged by it.
Yukio,
Sorry that you found what I said so "egregious" but you call it the "so-called" Black experience. And I have read enough of your post to know that you are of the mindset that race does not exist; which I don't wholly disagree with but I would argue that the same does not apply to color and/or the experience that result from it. Most of the conflicts you mentioned are relatively new so I don't see how they fit into the equation, unless you're saying that colorism and the class biases within our community have held some Blacks back. And the fact that Blacks are still at the bottom in terms of wealth and power in this country is an indicator that our experience hasn't changed. The means by which Black people are oppressed have changed but the affects are still the same, Blacks must work harder nonetheless. And the conditions in which we live are better but that's so for everyone. Blacks continue to be the most marginalized ethnic group, as such we remain at the bottom, thus our experience has not changed. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2356
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 01:54 am: |
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Tonya: Well, let explain myself so that we are on the same page.
I often say "so-called" because many people here say "the black experience," as in a homogeneous experience. It is clear that there are many black experiences, and that the commonality we share is white supremacy. One of the conversations that I remember having--i think before you were here--was about the diversity in the black community.
Now, when I say race doesn't exist, I also say that racism does. We are people of African descent. We are black, but that doesn't make us a "race."
There is no "black race," but there are racists and racism...people who believe that they are superior to other people based on the presumption of race and act on those beliefs resulting in inequality, violence, and other forms of injustices.
I said the "changing same." What does that really mean?
It means that some things have changed, but ultimately things are the same, that the struggle is not over.
But, this should not discount the absence of jim crow signs, southern blacks ability [for the most part] to vote. Too many of our people died for me to claim that things haven't changed. Without these changes, the black middle-class would not have risen...this, of course, doesn't mean that the job is over...that is not the case.
But things are "the same," similar is a better word...but I like the notion "the changing same."
There are so many black men, and increasingly black women, who are disfranchised because they are felons. Instead of Bull Connor, there is a disparity in the sentencing for crack and cocaine convictions. While there is an absence of Jim Crow signs, many studies claim that re-segregation in education is increasing. In the north, white folk have always gerrymandered school and voting districts to ensure their control over resources...this is still happening.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5558
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 04:13 am: |
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I'm not going to call you narrow-minded, bigoted, unknowing, unrefined nothing of the sort, but I do think you're being a bit naive. Blks don't have it easier just because some among us are more tolerated by whites (due to color bias, ect). No, the majority of us still have to work pretty darn hard to get to where we're going, and so what qualifies as the Black experience is not going to change in order to accommodate a few Blacks. It is naive of you to think that the core meaning won't always reflect the experiences of the vast majority of Blk folks.
Btw, I’d appreciate the same courtesy in the future or at least provide a viable basis for your criticism if you can, thanks.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2359
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 04:29 am: |
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I'm not going to call you illiterate, but I do think you haven't taken care to read what I wrote.
I didn't say anything about blacks have anything easier. To say that things have changed is not the same as saying things are easier.
If you took care to read my post, I am suggesting that with all of the diversity within "the experience," what we share as a group is racism.
I am not so narrow-minded to disqualify people from being part of the black experience for having different experiences than the majority of black folks.
It seems to me that your notion of the black experience is so narrow that it ignores fundamental changes in U.S. history in general and African American history in particular. Again, change doesn't mean easier, but it means that things are not the same.
By the advent of the civil rights movement, the majority of blacks lived in urban areas and exited the agricultural economy. At the same time for those that migrated Northeast and the Midwest, they encountered industries that either automated or left for the suburbs, and then more recently out of the country. This was a serious rupture from the past. Ask older folk who migrated in the 50s what Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh looked like as compared to what it looks like now.
For those that moved to the West, the entered the industries at the lowest levels, and/or they lived in communities that did not have a viable industrial sector. Finally, they lived in areas where they lacked basic services because of a lack of a tax base; the suburbs both had the industries and the homes, and therefore a tax base to render them basic city services.
We were poor then, but at least we worked. We were often underemployed, but it is considerably different now. Does this mean African Americans life chances are easier, but the economy that I confront as a thirty something year old is qualitatively different than the one my parents and grand parents confronted when they were my age.
Also, when West Indian came to this country in great numbers during the first world war, for example, their experiences are fundamentally different from Africans and West Indians entering this country now. The question of black immigrants is not new, but it also not the same as it was in the past....
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5562
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 05:29 am: |
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"I am not so narrow-minded to disqualify people from being part of the black experience for having different experiences than the majority of black folks."
This just doesn't make sense. But you're mad at ME because YOUR posts sound like THIS...???
Your overreaction to that statement you found "egregious" was weird enough and so this is simply too much.
I asked you to extend the same courtesy as I to you but you didn't and so from here on out, please don't respond to anything I post....I won't be responding to anything of yours, thanks.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2360
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 02:25 pm: |
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LOL! I dont know if the tone of this exchange has to do with difficulty of the internet or not.
Tonya, you have chosen not to accept the courtesy. LOL! I have said that the socalled black experience is not one but many. And I explained this. I have said there this is exchange is not the same as it was in the past, but that there are key differences but many similarities that could be described as the same.
Finally, I said that you hadn't read my post, carefully. And I explained why. The "viable basis" for my criticism was:
1) that continued suggestion that I believe the black experience was not the "same." The notion of the "changing same" suggests "sameness."
2)that you wrongly equated my use of the word different with saying that things were easier.
3)in the post before and the after your request that I extend you "the same courtesy in the future or at least provide a viable basis for your criticism," I described three key areas that are similiar to the past but still different. At no point of course, did I every use the word easier, by the way.
These areas include:
a)education
b)voting
c)economy
All of this was my evidentiary basis, which I explained.
Besides me using the word egregious, there is not evidence that I was mad at you or overreacted. A mad person, I suspect, would not have layed out past and present political economy in order to show how thing have changed but are similiar and in many ways worse than the past.
Finally, if something doesn't make sense to you and two other people....LOL...means only that three people agree upon something.
But let me explain it anyways...LOL!
This is narrow-minded:
The suggestion that I "think that the core meaning won't always reflect the experiences of the vast majority of Blk folks."
If I thought this, I wouldn't consistently criticize Cosby and his cohorts. At the same time, I will not disqualify Cosby's experience from the larger black experience. The point is, don't througout the baby with the bathwater!
You can embrace the concerns, plight, and goals of the masses without excluding the Cosbys, Oprahs, Jordans, and others. These three individuals are hella rich . . . Cosby is an elitist, Oprah is an elitist, and Jordan [my favorite basketball player] is a plain ol sell out!
Now, that we got that out of the way, and you have clearly mad at me, what can I do to get back in your good graces?
And since Tonya is not talking to me, please somebody convey to her that I'm sorry and I want to make amends!
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2361
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 02:26 pm: |
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Thank you, elder ABM. |
Robynmarie
Regular Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 459
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 09:26 am: |
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Tonya-you make a compelling argument, and I agree with you if you are speaking exclusively about the black American experience. A casual obeservation at a women's prison in the U.S., you'll see many of the inmates are dark skinned black women and Latinas. I believe studies have shown that dark skinned people in general get harsher punishment in the criminal justice system.
However, most of the African women leaders are dark-skinned women. And light skinned women in places like Darfur suffer rape and abuse on a daily basis.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5572
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 12:36 pm: |
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Hi Robynmarie.
From what I see, these Leaders are usually medium brown-skinned (which they consider light in some parts of Africa) or they're dark-skinned as we know it but aren’t really dark in some parts there. And the Blk women who marry influential Blk men tend to be lighter than the ppl around them. As far as these marriages are concerned, Colorism seems to be almost as bad over there is it is over here.
As for the Darfur situation, it’s more about color than it is about anyting else, from what I’ve been told; and the oppressors are Arab whites & lighter skinned Blacks…while the victims are the darkest among them. The people being raped, slaughtered, and tortured are basically the darker ones, according to what is being said. And on CNN THEY SHOW village after village of very dark and dark skinned women...almost entirely...as victims of these rapes.
I’m not saying light-skinned women aren’t the ones being raped. I just haven’t seen or heard of any. And it's not that it would make a difference, regardless of color, the situation would still be appalling, whether they were light, white, red or brown. But from what's being reported, they seem very dark & dark-skinned. |
Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 12-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 01:53 pm: |
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Actually--having lived in Northeast Africa--most of these "Arab oppressors" are actually very dark:
http://www.sudanesethinker.com/2007/02/03/sudan-arab-or-african/ |
Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1944
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 02:59 pm: |
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Yukio,
There is a double-standard, because SOME black women think that they can have it both ways - not consider the child black (or part of the "black experience") but think they can "parent" better than the white mother just because they're non-white too. That's simply not true.
You're right in that there are SOME situations my children will experience that will put me on the "outside looking in". However, that has nothing to do with me having the ability to advocate for their human rigths. Because, as I've LIVED it, one who (truly) cares about the human rights of others, especially their own blood//offspring/seed, doesn't need to be a victim of discrimination firsthand to comprehend the truth of what is right and wrong . Whether one is advocating for human rights pertaining to race, class, or gender, to be an advocate for the social ills that surround such, one simply has to have the courage to speak up and take action. And I've done so - on more than one occassion. Therefore, I absolutely disagree with your assumption/assertion that I can't advocate for my children's self-respect and God-give rights to "simply be as they are" just because I'm not Black. That's absurd! In my opinion, the way in which a parent advocates for their child/children models to them the standard in which they should expect others to treat them - AND - to defend themself (as they grow older) when someone doesn't meet that (high) standard. So, you may be Black, which helps you relate to some of the experiences my children have encountered and will encounter; however, you're not me, you're not female nor do you have the heart of a mother. So, there are times when you, too, are on the "outside looking in" - and will always be. And at some point during this lifetime, and to varying degrees, all of us are - yourself included.
Regarding the racist heirarchy within this country and the world - NO SHYT. That's not new information. And I believe teaching children - especially non-white children - to live with a sense of entitlement, greatly influences positive change(s) within the power structure.
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Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1945
Registered: 07-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 03:09 pm: |
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Cynique:
"they are, in a way, more expert on this subject than either single-race parent."
Moonsigns:
So true!
Cynique:
"I always been amused by the fact that no amount of viriole that black folks on this board ever seems to phase you, Moonie."
Moonsigns:
True again!
Cynique:
"I wonder if you are aware of the source of your indifference to your black detractors?"
Moonsigns:
Of course I am.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5573
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 06:16 pm: |
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As silly as it may seem and as dark as many of these oppressors may be, they consider themselves lighter - and whiter - than the ppl they seek to exterminate through GENOCIDE. Also their idea of light/dark is different from ours - much different.
Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Nicholas Kristof has written eloquently and often about the ongoing conflict in Darfur for The New York Times. NCR interviewed Kristof about his experience covering the genocide taking place in Sudan and what he thinks can be done to stop the killing.
Kristof: It's an area that has been left out of Sudan's development, and there have been some historic tensions there between Arab tribes and non-Arab African tribes. It's also complicated because the Arabs tend to be nomadic herdsmen and the Africans tend to be settled farmers and so you have a traditional rancher vs. farmer competition. So you have some historic tensions between ranchers and farmers. Then some elements in the African tribes began a rebellion in 2003 and Sudan decided that the simplest counterinsurgency method was simply to wipe out the black Africans in the area.
. . . .
It's depressing to admit as a journalist because I feel I should be covering news that is new, but essentially the story today is the same as it was in 2003, which is the government of Sudan shooting people on the basis of tribe and skin color and heaving them onto bonfires.
. . . .
My last trip was to Chad, and I saw women who'd been burned in huts and men who'd been blinded with bayonets because of their skin color, in effect by the same people, by the same militias who had been doing this in Darfur itself.
. . . .
Not really. The United States has done more than most countries. Those that really have been more active have been kind of marginal like Rwanda and Slovenia. Rwanda because it has some experience of genocide and Slovenia just because its president was really upset about it. Those two countries have actually tried to do a lot, and the United States has been pretty good about sending food and assistance while most of Europe has been oblivious and much of the Arab world has actually supported Sudan.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_8_43/ai_n17154217
Sudan's Final Solution
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: June 19, 2004
There were 45 corpses, all killed because of the color of their skin, part of an officially sanctioned drive by Sudan's Arab government to purge the western Sudanese countryside of black-skinned non-Arabs.
http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F60B13F93F5D0C7A8DDDAF08 94DC404482
A Choice For Darfur
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: January 28, 2007
The outcome is still uncertain, with Sudan campaigning furiously for the job, but it's mind-boggling that African countries would even consider selecting as their leader a man who has systematically dispatched militias that pick out babies on the basis of tribe and skin color and throw them into bonfires.
http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=FB0E1EF83C5B0C7B8EDDA808 94DF404482
Kristof Critiques Darfur Crisis
Pulitzer winner pushes prioritization
By Julie Geng
Sun Senior Editor
Apr 26 2007
http://cornellsun.com/node/23196 |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5576
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 06:38 pm: |
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Moonsigns is so insignificant to the lives of Black people on this board - except perhaps you Cynnique, you’re always in her business and you seem to always notice her presence whenever she's around along with other mysterious things. ...I did not sense any "viriole" in either Yvette's or Yukio's post to her. |
Misty
Veteran Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 905
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 06:43 pm: |
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that's really sad....they must have a VERY bizarre and deluded concept of skin color because they really dont look any lighter than the africans they show them harrassing. the only difference is their hair texture (maybe slightly less kinky from what can see in the pictures) and the fact that they wear beards. but that's about it. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5577
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 06:47 pm: |
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Apparently, it’s the Rwanda situation in reverse.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2363
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 09:37 pm: |
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Tonya,
You're still not talkin to me? |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2063
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:27 pm: |
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Tonya, please forgive Yukio. It's hard to watch a grown man beg. LOL |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8684
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 05:18 pm: |
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Moonsigns and I go waaaay back on this board, Tonya, and she' always been called a lot names by people who think she ought not be posting here. Yukio and Yvette never show any vitriole toward anybody. That's why they are 2 of my favorites. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5589
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:11 pm: |
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EVERYBODY is called names around here. And the vitriol between LOTS of folks like you and Kola and even yours truly at times is ever present. I see no reason for Moonsigns to be the exception…though I'm not surprised that you do. What amazes me is that you act as if she’s incapable of guarding herself...when she has proven her to be as ferocious as anyone else.
...(She could be her own mammy really. *LOL*)
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2365
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:13 pm: |
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Tonya: I'm beggin...on bended knee! Forgive me... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8686
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:12 am: |
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To me, Moonsigns is so steeped in her whiteness that she is not phased by the scorn of the black folks who are upset by her. She just says what she has to say and keeps on truckin. I find this amusing. With me and Kola and a lot of other people, the vitriole is give and take, an exchange of profane insults and vile name calling. LOL. (And please forgive my baby boy Yukio.) |
Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1946
Registered: 07-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:31 pm: |
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Cynique,
I was thinking that's what you'd write/"say". But that's not the truth of the matter. The reason I'm not phased by the (many) jacka$$es on this board is because they refuse to think outside anything other than stereotypes.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8691
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 01:44 pm: |
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People not thinking outside of streotypes is not a reason to be immune to their wrath, Moonie. That should be what would inspire indignant reciprocation - unless of course you have a built-in mindset that unconsciously dismisses what your black detractors say as not having much merit. IMO. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2369
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 03:46 pm: |
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Moonsigns:
There is a double-standard, because SOME black women think that they can have it both ways - not consider the child black (or part of the "black experience") but think they can "parent" better than the white mother just because they're non-white too. That's simply not true.
OK. I think I understand your logic. I think their logic is that people of color—not just black people—catch hell, and so you being white would still not able to address that.
However, that has nothing to do with me having the ability to advocate for their human rigths. Because, as I've LIVED it, one who (truly) cares about the human rights of others, especially their own blood//offspring/seed, doesn't need to be a victim of discrimination firsthand to comprehend the truth of what is right and wrong . Whether one is advocating for human rights pertaining to race, class, or gender, to be an advocate for the social ills that surround such, one simply has to have the courage to speak up and take action. And I've done so - on more than one occassion.
You love your children, of course. I’m not questioning that. But there is a mistake in your thinking, here. And I say this respectfully, advocating someone’s human rights—even your child’s—is not only about “having courage to speak up and take action,” but also about understanding the conditions and context under which a black person and people of color live. Thus, it has everything to do with your ability to advocate for human rights. Speaking out and taking action is not enough if it does not address the issues.
Again, you keep focusing on your “LIVED” experience, and “love” and “care,” what you have done for your child. That, and no respect, tells me very little about you appreciating the so-called black experience. In my exchange with Tonya [who has broken my heart], I focused on the diversity of the individual experience, and the commonality of racism and white supremacy in the U.S. Why is this relevant? Because, although we—black people or people of color—enjoy or not a diversity of experiences, we all have to deal with this experience of white supremacy in a very different way than you and white folk in general. This is key, in my opinion. In all of our diversity—class, region, color, education—we all will catch hell in away that you can only witness, talk about or “speak up and take action,” but not live.
Also, you have—perhaps inadvertently—equated being black with being a victim. I hope that was a mistake, and/or a consequence, of your trying to make a point, and not thinking out fully what you have said.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2370
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 06:07 pm: |
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Moonsigns: by the way, where I say "That, and no respect, tells me very little about . . .," should say "and no disrespect."
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5597
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:33 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
Why hold us to a much higher standard than others? You just said on another thread that we should get over the facts that brought about Katrina, you said folks aren‘t changing their hearts and that racism is nothing "new". Tho, here, you want to blast "the (many) jacka$$es on this board" for stereotyping you. Hmmm, just curious. What makes us so different that you expect the type of tolerance from us that you so casually unburdened from the hearts and minds of America? (Not advocating intolerance, of course. Like I said, just curious.)
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Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 04:13 pm: |
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Cynique,
For me, I find that exchanging with a mind that can only work within the limitations of stereotypes is rather boring - and I'm rarely inspired to partake in "indignant reciprocation" - as I much rather prefer intelligent discourse. And very few people have the character or will to discuss issues in an objective manner. So, I keep on truckin' and let the fools think what they want.
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Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1949
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 05:00 pm: |
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Yukio,
No, I don't think you're understanding my point regarding the double-standard. But, oh well.
I don't feel there is any "mistake" in my thinking, and this is why. I'm more than aware that I will never live my life as a black person, as my children will never live life as a white person. I'm more than aware that blacks, collectively and individually, suffer the ill repercussions of racism and prejudice on a daily basis - in a way that whites could never even imagine. And I'm more than aware that social class, gender, skin tone - and even hair texture - influence the degree of racism and prejudice a black/non-white person experiences. My children are also aware of these truths. And this is where (I believe) we differ. You feel I need to experience/"live" these "issues" firsthand in order to evoke true change - "address the issues" - and I feel that "speaking up and taking action" is a direct reflection of me, although I'm not black/brown, comprehending the injust, and inhumane way, most non-white people are treated on a daily basis. And though you, in your own way, choose to discredit the experiences I've had with my children (I've encountered - and encounter - racist teachers, racist classmates/peers, racist neighbors, racist co-workers etc.), I'm far more aware than you seem to want to acknowledge. So, while you're correct in that I'm limited in some ways, in other ways I know I'm not. And though I'm on the "outside" - in some ways - in other ways I'm not. It's all about perspective. And I've always had the perspective that the social ills of society are rooted in all it's people, as are the solutions to such. So, our way of thinking is simply different, and I must be accountable to work for the change I wish to see. And, for my children, I'll continue to adovcate for their right "to be", as well as our right "to be" as a family.
In regards to black people being a victim, yes, black people, when they are discriminated against because of their skin color, social class, gender, and/or all of the above, are victims of ill-treatment. However, being a victim and living in victimhood are two totally different things. And I know plenty of black people who choose not to live in victimhood.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2372
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 06:10 pm: |
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Well, I don't know how you could determine if I understand your logic or not...unless, you believe that if I did, I would agree.
Actually, I DO NOT "feel [you] need to experience/"live" these "issues" firsthand in order to evoke true change - "address the issues."
You don't understand me at all. I'm not talking about feelings, passion, first hand experience, anecdotes, and the like. I'm talkin about what some diversity trainers call "cultural competence." I'm talking about knowledge.
My initial reply to you pertained to respecting the fact that you are on the "outside" looking in...thats all. And that these black women have a reason to question your parenting. I did not say it was right or wrong, but that there is a damn good reason.
I also said that I was saying that you should take in crap from anyone.
I'm not discrediting your experiences and struggles. Its not my focus, it is yours. Mine is comprehension. And you don't seem to appreciate I'm not talking about you and your children but how you relate to black women. To appreciate that you are "outside looking in" and that we live in a racial hierarchy is not only about teaching your child certain tools, but how you relate to black women and women of color, and how your children relate to them, and the like....
In your defensiveness, you have forgotten and not addressed that the "tension" of which you speak is legitimate. That the so-called "double standard" that I'm addressing from your post is not, in fact, a double-standard but, in a way, you viewing this issue as just two parents, one white with a b-racial child and the other black with black child.
And that these elements contribute to different experiences, which means that you in fact have a basis to understand the child's experience because the child is biracial not black, and of course...you commitment to taking actions and the child's human rights. That makes sense, but what about black people, and your relationship to us? What about your self-righteousness, and condescension?
You, it seems, only understand racism, and the like when it comes to your child, but after that it seems, all is equal, and so you can forget the humanity of the rest of us... |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2374
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 08:02 pm: |
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oops..."I also said that I was saying that you should [not]take in crap from anyone."
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Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1950
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 08:40 am: |
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Tonya,
Becauase of your mindset, I don't hold you - personally - to any standard.
I never wrote you -- or any other Black person -- should get over the events and/or negative repercussions of Katrina. I actually feel the exact opposite. I find it insulting, which I wrote, that the media presents this information like it's "new news", as if the victims of Katrina haven't been suffering all along. And, true to your nature, you missed that valid point. You consider me a bytch. I consider you a parrot. And so it goes. Therefore, I don't expect "tolerance" from you or any other (Black or White) jacka$$. And if you can't even comprehend that I support the human rights entitled to the victims of Katrina (because you stereotype too much), then I dare can't expect you to comprehend that I consider you, as well as the "hearts and minds of America", to be one in the same. Hmmmm. Interesting, right?!
Think about that for awhile.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 5610
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 04:12 am: |
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Is it that I'm missing the point or that you got the point and haven't been able to handle it since?
You've been bitching at me for two years or more for "stereotyping" you.
But if it were just a stereotype, you would have forgotten that shit by now.
About two years ago I said it, and then I said it again almost two weeks ago.
However, you've been bitching since the first time, damn near constantly, and again, that was at least two years ago.
So it must be true.
Therefore it isn't a stereotype.
You're trying to make it one just like you tried to spin all that you said on the Katrina thread (which is there for the whole world to see, dumb ass, and the people here aren't what you think).
So admit that you got the point already...and "truck" on.
Nobody here gives a shit that you're fat funked and fugged, anyway.
Plus the more you b*tch, the more you play yourself.
...For your own sake, get lost.
And I posted a survey that day, btw, or "parroted" a survey, as you might say.
So if I missed your point, apparently I did right, seeing that you read a study and thought you were watching the news. LOL! |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2380
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 06:00 am: |
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Moonsigns:
You wrote: "that shyt like this is printed in a fashion that this information is some major revelation."
And then you wrote:"this isn't "new news" - even to White America and middle class/upper class Black America. And I haven't met anyone yet that knows how to change the hearts of people who just don't care. But when you find the answer, I'm sure your smart a$$ will enlighten us all."
To use such language as "insulting" suggests that you are above this information. But why would someone situate themselves in such a way in relation to this kind of news in the first place? I would think that if you an advocate of blacks' human rights, then you would support this information. Furthermore, you describe it as if it is about what YOU think is up to par as it regards news about Americans, and African Americans in particular. It is the surveys that have in fact helped many of African Americans struggles. Black people have always said that they were oppressed, and so it wasn't a matter of hearts and minds, but policy.
It is ironic that you constantly say that such and such isn't new....of course, its not "new," but that doesn't mean people know it. And it doesn't mean that the information is not useful.
You seem like the white ministers that MLK described in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail. They spoked against segregation--that was their action. But they also told King that black folk should wait and these things take time....in other words, they wanted things on their terms.
You seem quite similar...you want to "speaking up and taking action," but you can't learn anything from black people who question your analysis of our situation. Nothing is new to you, nothing worth promulgating, because you know it, and it doesn't meet your standards. It is "insulting." Like the white ministers, it has to be on your terms.
The civil rights movement wasn't about changing hearts, it was about obtaining legislation. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas wasn't about changing hearts, it was about changing the Plessy decision. How was this done....research, news coverage, promulgating very specific images and information....
White people in the North knew that blacks were lynched, and black women raped, that violence in the South was state-sanctioned.
Conservatives have think tanks, and they write reports that are used to both form policy, lobby it, and change existing policy. It is well funded and quite old...it was these same people, who used reports, editorials, etc....to convince working-class people in the last presidential election to vote against their own interests. |
Carey
Veteran Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 519
Registered: 05-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:04 pm: |
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Hello
Few things really change in life do they. I have not read a moonsign's post in many years and I've been coming to this spot since 199?. Anyway, over the years I simply stopped reading posts that led me to believe that a person just wasn't getting it or tried very hard not to admit that they may be on the wrong side of an issue. I couldn't justify the exchange, it just didn't seem fair that a person would engage in a "debate" and not give something back. I see Moonsigns is still Moonsigns. I think I'll fly away from this name for another period of time. |
Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1951
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 03:15 pm: |
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Yukio,
There are so many reasons why we I don't expect you to agree with me. However, I expect you - and other people - to understand how logical it is that people have differing opinions on various subject matters.
Though you don't believe it, I do "respect" the fact that, to a certain extent, I am on the "outside looking in"....and so are you (to a certain extent). And though you think otherwise, I still maintain my position that I don't feel Black women are entitled to "question" the way in which White woman raise their Biracial children, just because they're non-white too.
I agree with you that I shouldn't take crap from anyone - and I rarely, if ever, do.
This entire topic (thread) is about "white women raising sons of color" -which I am included in those numbers. Because you feel Black women are entitled to "question" the way White women raise their Biracial children, and I don't, it is only natural that our focus is different. Because I've been a parent for quite some time, I've found that much of guiding and training my children is giving them the "tools" they will need to survive and thrive in this world. One dynamic of this guiding and training is giving them the tools they need to interact with other people - Black women included. And just because I don't feel Black women (in general) should "question" the way I raise my children, does not mean that I don't respect Black women (as a whole) or appreciate the (Black) women I am friends with or my children's Black, female family members. There are too many variable factors to allow just any woman, especially based solely on the merit of skin color, to influence me in how I raise my children. My older children have also had enough experiences with non-Biracial people that have allowed them to draw their own conclusions. They are beginning to comprehend the concept of individuality and how some people, though they may share the same culture, skin tone, language, and social class, can have extremely different perspectives regarding such.
I'm short on time, but I'll write more later.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2381
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 05:51 pm: |
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Moonsigns:I am engaging you. That is what I do here, and so I expect that we will learn from each other. Once upon a time, I used to do a little teaching, so I understand that "people have differing opinions on various subject matters." This too I have taught people.
BUT, I also taught folk that there is right and wrong. I know this is not a classroom, so I wont belabor the point, but neither a teacher nor a parent should allow their encouragement for free thought and critical thinking to mask the difference between what is right and what is wrong.
Now, let me clarify my position. I am saying that there is a legitimate REASON for questioning your parenting a biracial child.
I am neither saying that women of color nor any woman for that matter is entitled to verbally question your parenting.
I am saying that there is a reason . . . and that, if you haven't, you should take that reason seriously because it is more than a matter of skin color.
So for me we can differing on many things, but in this day and age, white people are higher on the "racial" hierarchy of country. There is no questioning of this fact.
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Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 07:28 pm: |
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Yukio,
Because we have fundamental differences in our opinions, I think it's understandable that you'd view me as being defensive - but I don't feel defensive. Just as you are "engaging" me, I am "engaging" you.
I do believe that the "tension" between SOME Black women and White women does exisit. And I believe an underlying reason is that SOME Black women don't approve of Black men (in general) having the choice/right to intermarry/procreate with non-white women (because of the racism, sexism, classism, and/or colorism they experience) and that tension is then projected onto his offspring and/or the mother of his children. One may think that this is justified, however, for three reasons, I don't think it is: 1) We live in a Democratic society. 2) The "Black experience", due to gender, age, class, and/or color can have notable differences (as proven on this very forum) 3) The interracial family dynamic is extremely different than that of a (monoracial) Black family. Therefore, the "questioning" of such, by SOME Black women, is unwarranted.
You asked about my relationship to "black people", and I want to ask what you really expect me to understand or do, when you feel I'm "on the outside looking in....and will always be". Because no matter what I do, say, think - or how I advocate for my children when needed (or co-workers - and I've done this on a few occassions), will really seem to be of any benefit to you as a fellow human being....because you have led me to believe it won't - and I can't (because I'm White).
I don't believe I'm self-righteous or condescending.
Of course I understand racism when it comes to my children; however, it doesn't end there. Not at all. And I see the humanity in all people. I just think that because you view me on the outside - and fail to see the humanity in me - your mind is unwillingly to accept the intentions of my heart.
In regards to the Katrina comment about "insulting", you're totally over-analyzing it. I meant just what I wrote - it's not "new news". People have suffered horribly -- HORRIBLY! And yes, I believe information regarding Katrina should still be given to the public via internet, tv, newspapers, magazines, etc. But to me, it's, like, when are people going to wake up? It's insulting that the suffering of human beings, especially the poor, is constantly overlooked when so much info is available. That is why the "hearts and minds of America" are significant to the discussion, because they influence policy.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2387
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 12:47 pm: |
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Moonsigns:
Because we have fundamental differences in our opinions, I think it's understandable that you'd view me as being defensive - but I don't feel defensive. Just as you are "engaging" me, I am "engaging" you.
Yukio:
That’s interesting. If you’re “engaging,” why would you need to inform me that you “expect [me] - and other people - to understand how logical it is that people have differing opinions on various subject matters” ? Also, I don’t recall saying you were defensive…, but remember that you said it not me!
Moonsigns:
I do believe that the "tension" between SOME Black women and White women does exisit. And I believe an underlying reason is that SOME Black women don't approve of Black men (in general) having the choice/right to intermarry/procreate with non-white women (because of the racism, sexism, classism, and/or colorism they experience) and that tension is then projected onto his offspring and/or the mother of his children. One may think that this is justified, however, for three reasons, I don't think it is: 1) We live in a Democratic society. 2) The "Black experience", due to gender, age, class, and/or color can have notable differences (as proven on this very forum) 3) The interracial family dynamic is extremely different than that of a (monoracial) Black family. Therefore, the "questioning" of such, by SOME Black women, is unwarranted.
Yukio:
The fundamental problem, I see, with your reasons is that they presume that the black experience is so diverse that there is nothing holding us together, and that, implicitly at least, being black is nothing but being of African descent [reason 2]. African Americans are a nation within a nation with bonds based on what was done to us—oppression and what we have done together as a people and the ideas derivative of both—culture. And within that nation there is diversity, of course. So, it is less about “rights” and “choice,” and more about obligation, loyalty, and group, cultural, and familial existence. It is about a deep psyche, emotional, and spiritual bond that class can not change. The other variables that you list have always been there. What we are really talking about is the transformation of African Americans into Americans. If what you say is true, and I think the nature of the world is making it this way, then perhaps in the next sixty years, perhaps even less, African Americans will be a minority of black Americans [people of African descent with no cultural, psyche claim to African American identity]. And so, to me really, the tension that black women feel [and black men feel this when we see sistas with white men too], is the loss of a people from deep inside, on the one hand, and at the level of community, wherein, black women have been taught to hold the front, and that vision was always with a black man, black children.
Now, of course, this country is only a democracy in name. So your first point does not make any sense, for until perhaps…that last forty or so years, interracial marriage was illegal. And this country has claimed to be democratic since 1776. But at the end of the day, everyone should have their right to do whatever it is they want, but that doesn’t change preclude the emotional attachment that I have describe above. It’s not a question of rights, it is a question of spiritual, emotional, and psyche commitment. That doesn’t make it unwarranted. In other words, we are talking about conditions of the heart not politics.
The tension, according to you, is ultimately about black men and white female relations [you said non-white, and I suspect that was a mistake]. If this is the case, then the question of dynamics is irrelevant [reason 3], since the presence of the “interracial” family not its workings is the problem in the first place.
Moonsigns:
You asked about my relationship to "black people", and I want to ask what you really expect me to understand or do, when you feel I'm "on the outside looking in....and will always be". Because no matter what I do, say, think - or how I advocate for my children when needed (or co-workers - and I've done this on a few occassions), will really seem to be of any benefit to you as a fellow human being....because you have led me to believe it won't - and I can't (because I'm White).
During the civil rights movement and other movements, white people struggle [advocate] with us and many died, but they never experienced being black [outside looking in]. I am a feminist, and I try to rid myself of misogynist thought and behaviors, but I will never be a woman. I think part of respecting, understanding, and advocating for and with people is to see first the commonality and equality of their humanity with yours and secondly that it is a different humanity from yours.
Moonsigns:
I don't believe I'm self-righteous or condescending.
Yukio:
Unfortunately, those who are self-righteous and condescending never do [I’m serious but just playing].
Moonsigns:
Of course I understand racism when it comes to my children; however, it doesn't end there. Not at all. And I see the humanity in all people. I just think that because you view me on the outside - and fail to see the humanity in me - your mind is unwillingly to accept the intentions of my heart.
Yukio:
I see the humanity in you, and all people. But this doesn’t prevent me from knowing that I am not an African, I am not British, I am not white. Again, it seems to me, you don’t see that being black is not equal to being victims of racism and being of African descent. Let me put is another way, racism was based on the exploitation of free enslaved labor and virtually free labor during Jim Crow—and the excuse was based on Africans being of the black race. I am talking about African Americans—a people with a culture, values, language—and their experience of this racism. So, you want to acknowledge the racism, but not us as a people and out relationship with racism in this country.
Moonsigns:
In regards to the Katrina comment about "insulting", you're totally over-analyzing it. I meant just what I wrote - it's not "new news". People have suffered horribly -- HORRIBLY! And yes, I believe information regarding Katrina should still be given to the public via internet, tv, newspapers, magazines, etc. But to me, it's, like, when are people going to wake up? It's insulting that the suffering of human beings, especially the poor, is constantly overlooked when so much info is available. That is why the "hearts and minds of America" are significant to the discussion, because they influence policy.
Yukio: Again, I really don’t think you understand. People knew about slavery too, but abolitionists still have to promulgate antislavery.
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Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1953
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 01:00 pm: |
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Moonsigns:
"Engaging" in discourse, regardless of subject matter, is not only to share personal opinions but also to hear/read/ponder another's point of view. Obviously, "engaging" to you means something totally different, because regardless of how I've participated, you've told me "how it is" and not once considered my point of view. In one of your posts, you wrote that I was defensive. If you care enough, go back - you'll find it.
Yukio:
"The fundamental problem, I see, with your reasons is that they presume that the black experience is so diverse that there is nothing holding us together, and that, implicitly at least, being black is nothing than being of African descent [reason 2]. African Americans are a nation within a nation with bonds based on what was done to us - oppression and what we have done together as a people and the ideas derivative of both - culture. And within that nation there is diversity, of course. So, it is less about "rights" and "choice", and more about obligation, loyalty, and group, cultural, and familial existence. It is about a deep psyche, emotional, and spiritual bond that class can not change."
Moonsigns:
I don't think that black people, as a whole, aren't "bonded". Naturally, just as it is with other groups of people, there are some "bonds". However, I think you down play the very significant role social class and, in some cases, gender, play in how "deep" that bond really, and truly, is. You could have told me that, maybe, like, 40 years ago, and I would consider your point a more accurate reflection of reality; however, with desegregation, the legalization of interracial marriage, more educational/career opportunities for "African Americans", and "diversity awareness/appreciation" becoming increasingly significant in our current culture, social class is definitely becoming the (present) common bond that takes precedence over the common bond of "what was done to us[African Americans]" (past). And capital, moreso now than ever, rules. So, it's only understandable - not saying it's "right", though - that class is beginning to play more of a prominent role in bonding people than "race" alone.
Yukio:
"I think part of respecting, understanding, and advocating for and with people is to see first the commonality and equality of their humanity with yours...."
Moonsigns:
Totally agree.
Yukio:
"....and secondly that it is a different humanity than yours."
Moonsigns:
I disagree. I don't believe that we have differ in humanity but rather the human experience.
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Moonsigns
Veteran Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1954
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 01:30 pm: |
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Tonya:
"Is it that I'm missing the point........?"
Moonsigns:
Wow. What a major step. Who would have known?! You finally -- FINALLY -- have the awareness that you - your mindset - could possibly be in the wrong.
Good job, boxofrocks.
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2395
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 09:25 pm: |
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Moonsigns:
I'll say more later. When I say different, I don't mean inferior or superior, just different, as in not the same. In the 21st century, my humanity is based on the collective experience of African Americans in this country, and that collective experience has shaped who African Americans are as a group and who black people are as a group from white Americans and White people as a group. The notion of experience is not only what you encounter, what how does encounters change you and contribute to who you are. And our very, very different experiences as black people have made us different people. We are all humans, and existentially--we all eat, shit, cry, love, and die....but, for the most part, our understanding, for example of humanity, can say that it is different from yours but not superior or inferior....
white people, in general, as you seem to here, have a hard time understanding that there is no one humanity, and that to say that there is more than one that this doesn't equate to inequality.
european history is used to talking about what is universal or human or humanity---what this has always meant was white/western Europe, as the standard of humanity.
Africans, Asians, and others were not part of this discourse.
I am saying that there is no standard, that my humanity is based on more than just the fact that I eat, shit, love, and die like all humans. |
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