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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3947
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 03:05 pm: | 
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Excuse me--the mentality he is talking about is exhibited in all white areas of the nation and got nothing to do with the ghetto;
How about Appalachin mentality? Hillbilly mentality? Trailer Trash Mentality?
What ghetto did the Bush twins live in?
Ghetto mentality no longer color-coded
By STANLEY CROUCH
Posted Monday, March 19th 2007, 4:00 AM
'Ghetto Nation" by Cora Daniels is part of a profoundly important moment in our culture. The book lets us know where we stand through a sharpening perspective that calls upon the heritage all modern women have in common. That common heritage is the inarguable fact that thinking women have played a significant part in waking up this nation and the world to backward policies and disinclined cultural traditions.
So we should not be surprised to see that Daniels is one of the women rising up against the misogynist and denigrating things that are basic to the popularity of hip hop. Her observations are important because she sees the problems as far more than the troubles of an ethnic group that has seemingly accepted the hatred of women and the glamorizing of thugs and violent behavior as normal.
Rather brilliantly, what she describes as "ghetto" behavior and thought is not color-coded. To Daniels, Britney Spears, Paris Hilton and Gwyneth Paltrow are, through their various ways and personal decisions, as "ghetto" as the stereotypical project tackhead with five children by five different men, not one of whom she married.
So when Daniels uses "ghetto" to describe something, she does not exclusively mean lower class or black. Nor does she only mean the super tacky bling of wealthy, upper-class black knuckleheads who couldn't recognize refined style if it slapped the taste out of their mouths.
No, her observations are mercilessly inclusive. They criticize and pull the covers off of a much larger problem that may rise most brutally out of projects across the nation, but have not stayed there. These troubles are common to all colors and all classes. Every person in this nation is threatened by an especially obnoxious kind of narcissism that justifies all actions or ignores everyone else - including one's own children! - in the name of personal pleasure or profit or individual comfort.
What makes the book particularly effective is the fact that Daniels is proud to have come from a New York "ghetto" background that could playfully thumb its nose at conventional ideas of glamour and correct speech while creating the sort of vital ethnic subculture that all so-called minority groups tend to be ambivalent about or proud of - as much for what is wrong about it as for what is right.
Black Americans, Jews, Asians and Latinos can comically imitate the mispronunciations, the distinctive reactions and the sometimes bizarre visions of being well-dressed or "classy."
What "Ghetto Nation" actually does is live up to its subtitle, "A Journey Into the Land of Bling and the Home of the Shameless." Daniels does not long for the dull, manicured minds of the 1950s, but she does realize that much has been lost in the process of freeing this country from a puritanical and repressive culture.
Individuality seems to have come at the cost of community, as shame is set aside in favor of a self-serving sense of "the pursuit of happiness."
That such a brave and unflinching book could be written by a black woman in this time is quite inspiring. Daniels not only reveals a sense of life about which and from which we hear very little, but proves that we should never expect less than a willingness to stand tall against our domestic monsters whenever the question of the human survival of our nation is unavoidably raised.
scrouch@nydailynews.com
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 8993
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 03:35 pm: |
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To be fair, I think what Crouch's alluding to here is that although certain elements of being "Ghetto" may have appeared to have their origins in or were considered more visible amongst poor urban Blacks, those characteristics are beginning to manifest in much more multiracial, multi-class/cultural fashion.
Where there likely will be vigorous debate is the extent to which the Black originators of "ghetto" have incited "ghetto" amongst non-Blacks. To some degree, the ascent of hip-hop has greatly influenced others. But I seriously DOUBT that it caused Gwyneth Paltrow to be "ghetto". |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3950
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 03:38 pm: |
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(Crotch knows what he's doing. Bad = Black.
How about Charles Manson? He Ghetto? Jeffrey Dahmer?
I wonder is it ghetto behavior to be molesting your daughters or beating up their wives on Superbowl Sunday or lying us into a war.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 8994
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 03:44 pm: |
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Chris,
You're right. There are some things that White foks pull that ain't got much of a GOTDAYAM thang to do with kneegrows. |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 4964
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 04:15 pm: |
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I strongly believe it's the other way around. I recall white girls being into way more "ghetto" immoral tasteless shit than ANY of my Black girlfriends and I was into when we were coming up. I think it's just a case of subconscious racism. Deep down we ALL believe that Blacks are worse in every way which manifests itself in the way we view such topics. (The book seems really interesting btw.)
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7957
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 04:43 pm: |
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If Stanley Crouch said an orange was a citrus fruit, you would start a thread to deny that this was true, Chrishayden. Why are you bad mouthing him? He didn't write the book. And he's entitled to his opinion. If you can run black folks down the way you do, why can't a woman write a provocative book abut the word "ghetto". |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3953
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 04:45 pm: |
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Was Al Capone ghetto? John Gotti? Scott Petersen? Osama Bin Laden? Richard Nixon? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 8995
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 04:52 pm: |
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Chris,
Well...from a certain perspective...YEAH! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7958
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 05:11 pm: |
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Your other nemesis, Thomas Sowell, wrote a book about "Red Neck" behavior, calling it a term that transcended race, Chrishayden. These type of books simply expose some of society's unlikely commonalities and are about the dynamics of words. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 05:21 pm: |
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ghetto=w/out class...is present in all groups ...across class...roseanne was ghetto, of course. the difference is, white folk have ingeniously now and the past inscribed one form of behavior upon the blacks of all us, so that many of us cringe at the sight of 'ghetto' folk because we internalized...rather than seeing ourself as both a racial group and as individuals.... |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2038
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 05:34 pm: |
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oops, this is what I meant to say:
the difference is, white folk have ingeniously now and the past inscribed this behavior upon the backs of all us, that is, all black people, so that many of us cringe at the sight of 'ghetto' folk because we have internalized what white people think about us...rather differentiating between our indivdual seld from the group-self... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7959
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 06:25 pm: |
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Yes, and as I have previously noted, those so quick to reprimand the middle class for criticizing ghetto behavior are the same ones who get higly indignant when whites lump them with ghetto dwellers. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2039
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 07:08 pm: |
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LOL! I don't know about that, Cynique. highly indigant? that sounds more so like the folk who condemn[not criticize] 'ghetto behavior.'
but yes, if i'm not actin 'ghetto' i may still dress 'ghetto'; and then i can not dress 'ghetto' and act 'bourg-yhetto.' and if i'm being play ol bourgie, why should i allow someone to call me ghetto? LOL! Why not be indigant? LOL, if i wont to?
But blaming uneducated, single-mothers, and the incarerated for the problems, poverty, and stagnation of the black poor is quite another story....claiming that self-empowerment is THE solution rather than a band-aid is ridiculous, imo!
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 4968
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 08:45 pm: |
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Criticizing ghetto dwellers for raising kids to shoot kids is not AT ALL getting indignant, imho. You'd have to pull a thread to support such a bogus claim. 
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7963
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 08:58 pm: |
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What are you saying, Tonya? This is what I am saying: Bill Cosby criticizes ghetto behavior. You criticize Bill Cosby for criticizing ghetto behavior. When white people say a black person doesn't "act black", you claim this is their way of saying black people ordinarily act like the ghetto people Bill Cosby criticizes, and you get indignant because you don't want to be put in the same category as the ghetto people who you criticize Bill Cosby for talking about. It's all very ambiguous. |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 4970
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 09:18 pm: |
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quote:...you claim this is their way of saying black people ordinarily act like the ghetto people Bill Cosby criticizes, and you get indignant because you don't want to be put in the same category as the ghetto people who you criticize Bill Cosby for talking about. It's all very ambiguous.
Pull a thread to prove this, Babe. I have a photographic memory, I am 100% sure it never happened. Now, my criticizing Ghetto dwellers for raising kids to shoot kids did actually happen, I have no doubts. But I'm sure you'll pull a thread to back you're recollection, if it's really all that accurate. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7966
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 10:14 pm: |
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I didn't mean "you", specifically, Tonya. My original comments in regard to this were in response to Yukio's remarks. I meant all of Cosby critics, and all the people who harbor contempt for the black middle class. All Cosby bashers are the same folks would be among those who resent whites for associating "acting black" with acting ghetto. Your general attitude has always been to call out those who criticize the lower classes by challenging whether or not they have room to talk. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2042
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 10:27 pm: |
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Thats wrong Cynique! If you want to 'talk' then go ahead. My criticisms of Cosby have to do w/first the validity of his analysis and then his hypocrisy, to boot.
But really whats your point Cynique?
Cosby blames poor people for poverty...If folk are indignant because whites associate being black w/'ghetto behavior that is different than Cosby's criticizing poor people for poverty.
Thats different, I neither want to be pigeonholed as Lil Jon or Colin Powell, let me be me...
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7970
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 10:49 pm: |
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Cosby also criticzed blacks for using Ebonics and for not being good parents and for the way the homeboys dress and for having false values. My point is how ambiguous being black is. Blacks are on the defensive when it comes to being stereotyped but at the same time there are those who defend those who represent the stereotypes. And I wouldn't keep harping about this if so many of the critics of the black middleclass weren't so self-righteous. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7971
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 10:54 pm: |
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And, yes, hypocrits exist on both sides of this issue. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2045
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:13 pm: |
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lol...are you callin me self-righteous, Cynique?
Should the black middle-class escape criticism? Should the poor blacks escape criticism?
I say no to both questions. Cosby had a shopping list, no doubt, of criticisms. But the general critique, the theme, leitmotif, the exegesis . . .was that poverty in the black community is because of the behavior of poor blacks. Thats wrong!
This doesn't mean that blacks shouldn't learn standard english, that dressing properly for a job interview is egregious, and having 'correct values,' whatever that means, is not a better path to follow. No one here has said that! So, I don't know what ambiguity you speak of. Those values, what some have called 'self-empowerment' are essential but having them would not eradicate the poverty in black communities.
The black middle-class isn't even a middle-class...is a population of professional blacks w/o wealth....just attractive salaries....so the black middle-class is indeed poor!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7972
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 12:04 am: |
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Well, Yukio, I don't expect you to agree with what I say, but if having mixed emotions about the state of blackness isn't ambiguous I don't know what is. And you are ambivalent whether you realize it or not. And get real. The black middleclass is about more than just attractive salaries. Their life style is quite different from those who live in poverty. They've acquired the acutrements of success and they've done it through the sweat of their brows. You choose to dismiss this because you're a sucker for the pity party of poverty. You'd rather die and go to hell than to admit that poor folks can improve their lots in lives by making better choices. And you cling to the dream that The System will be responsive to the demands of black people even as you bemoan how entrenched institutionalized racism is. And, yes, I know middleclass people don't have wealth and are 2 paychecks away from being in the street, but they can always go on welfare and take comfort for the analysis you'll provide them with to explain the reason for their plight. Or - maybe they'll just go out and find another job. LMAO. |
Toubobie
Regular Poster
Username: Toubobie
Post Number: 235
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 02:22 am: |
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Never mind rich or poor. Whatever happened to INTEGRITY? Even when we had to eat pancakes for dinner, or no dinner at all we understood the difference between right and wrong. Sure, it may have something to do with our swelling disillusionment with the antiquated Christian religious paradigm, and (often absurd) notions of respectability that morally cradled us from slavery to industry. HOWEVER... these knuckleheads out here (young and OLD) know exactly what they are doing or what they are not doing and NEED to be doing. It IS about choices. It ain't got nuffin ta do with Jesus or education for that matter. Back in the day blacks with barely a 5th grade education knew better... We need to explore what has changed... Should we just give up because 'the jobs are just not there?' WRONG! The jobs are there, but we will not humble ourselves enough to put on a uniform or get our hands dirty. We are indeed a sad bunch. MExicans not speakin a lick of english coming over here picking fruit and cleaning sh*t out of toilets... three years later they own the dang company!
Aside from that.. Crouch is a bonafide assh0le. This jerk gets hot and greasy over jazz tunes, mongrelization, and the black middle class, but he does not support BLACKNESS when it really matters, when it really counts. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2049
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 02:33 am: |
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cynique: shame on you...LOL!
You say:
You'd rather die and go to hell than to admit that poor folks can improve their lots in lives by making better choices.
I already wrote:
This doesn't mean that blacks shouldn't learn standard english, that dressing properly for a job interview is egregious, and having 'correct values,' whatever that means, is not a better path to follow. No one here has said that! . . . Those values, what some have called 'self-empowerment' are essential but having them would not eradicate the poverty in black communities.
You say:
And you cling to the dream that The System will be responsive to the demands of black people even as you bemoan how entrenched institutionalized racism is.
Of course the system will be responsive, when we make it responsive...thats what the CRM did! I'm not asking for anything, I demanding it! Thats the purpose of organizations...do you think republicans are not organized...that white supremacist aren't organized....? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7973
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 11:25 am: |
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OK, babe. I knew you were expecting a comeback. I didn't want to let you down. LOL. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2051
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 11:31 am: |
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you're funny...I wasn't expecting a comeback... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7978
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 04:25 pm: |
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We go through this same ol debate on a regular basis, Yukio. Have we ever decided that the poor will always be with us because it keeps the country on an even keel. heh-heh. Have you ever read anything by the Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman? I've just read some excerpts from his theories because they are very complicated but they are very interesting especially since they have proven to be true over the years. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3960
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 10:45 am: |
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The black middleclass is about more than just attractive salaries. Their life style is quite different from those who live in poverty
(Yes it is. They have more money. Other than that, they beat and cheat on their wives (probably more than lower class people do), gamble, use drugs, lie, cheat steal, sin, molest children (probably more than lower class people do)
They use more drugs and commit more suicide and molest more children.
What a bunch of wonderful people.
Have you ever read anything by the Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman? I've just read some excerpts from his theories because they are very complicated but they are very interesting especially since they have proven to be true over the years
(All Milton Friedman boils down to is that you should let rich white people keep their money and do anything they want to. Why shouldn't that be popular?) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7995
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 10:50 am: |
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Blah, blah. Are we confusing the black middle with the American puritanical ethic? Nobody ever said that the black middleclass didn't act just like the black underclass. But they can afford their vices because they ain't on welfare; they gots j-o-b-s. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3963
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 11:13 am: |
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But they can afford their vices because they ain't on welfare; they gots j-o-b-s.
(See. This is why if I ever took over I would shoot most of the Negroes over the age of twelve and start over.
Plenty of poor people got J-O-B-S too! Plenty of poor people work every day. sometimes at TWO jobs. Everyday.
As a descendant of some people who worked dawn to dusk all their lives and didn't have CRAP I'd think you knew this.
But you are so busy trying to be better than somebody that your bigotry and racism and hatred can't keep from coming through.
Let me tell ya somethin, baby! Until you start laying golden eggs you ain't no better than nobody else! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 7998
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 11:37 am: |
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LMAO. What I'm really busy at is gettin a kick out of making you go ballistic, chrissy boy. All I gotta do is write a paragraph and you favor us with an melodramatic sililoqy right out of a movie entitled "Chris Halo, guardian of the underdog". Ruff Ruff. Pop your jugular vein back in, fatso. I love me some po folks. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3965
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 11:44 am: |
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By the way, I've been meaning to ask you this--
are you a Magical Negro? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8001
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 11:52 am: |
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If I was, I'd wave my wand and turn you back into the toad that you were before a blind princess kissed you. ugh. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 4153
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 01:20 pm: |
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Oh Look!!!
It's ChrisTheMagicalDancingFrogNegro!!!
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 4992
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 01:22 pm: |
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Yukio, ain't nothing wrong with caring for the poor, daddy.
In fact it's sexy.
And it's an indicator that you're happy enough to want others to be happy too.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 8007
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 02:03 pm: |
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How noble! Are you happy enough to want mixies to be happy, too? LOL. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 4154
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 02:48 pm: |
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You all keep me cracking up  |
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