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Yvettep
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 08:08 pm: | 
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/12/AR2006111200943. html
Our 'Africa' Lenses
From the West, Big Labels but Little Context
By Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
Monday, November 13, 2006; A21
Growing up in Nsukka, a small university town in eastern Nigeria, I often had malaria. It was so commonplace that when you went to the medical center, a nurse would say, "Malaria has come again, hasn't it?" Because I know how easily treatable malaria is, I was surprised to learn that thousands of people die from it each year. People like the relatives of David Banda, Madonna's adopted son from Malawi.
But of course most American media do not say "Malawi"; they just say "Africa." I realized that I was African when I came to the United States. Whenever Africa came up in my college classes, everyone turned to me. It didn't matter whether the subject was Namibia or Egypt; I was expected to know, to explain.
I reject this facile compression of a varied continent into a monolithic country, but I have also come to accept that African nations do have much in common with one another. Most have a history of European colonization. Most also have a failure of leadership, a long line of presidents and prime ministers and heads of state all intent on the plunder of the state.
And so I was wearing my "African" lenses as I watched Madonna on television, cautiously, earnestly explaining the media circus around her adoption. I did not think it my place to wonder what her motivation for adoption was. I did cringe, however, when she said that her greatest disappointment was that the media frenzy would discourage people who wanted to do the same thing that she had done: adopt an African child. She wanted people to go to Africa and see what she had seen; she wanted them, too, to adopt.
Later, watching David Banda's biological father speak about being grateful that she would give David a "better life," I could not help but look away. The power differential was so stark, so heartbreakingly sad; there was something about it that made Africa seem terribly dispensable.
Madonna will give David a better life, at least a materially better life: better food, housing, books. Whether this will make him a happier and normatively better human being is open to debate. What really matters is not Madonna's motivation or her supposed flouting of Malawian adoption laws (as though non-celebrities would not also hasten adoption processes if they could). Rather, it is the underlying notion that she has helped Africa by adopting David Banda, that one helps Africa by adopting Africa's children.
It is easy to romanticize poverty, to see poor people as inherently lacking agency and will. It is easy to strip them of human dignity, to reduce them to objects of pity. This has never been clearer than in the view of Africa from the American media, in which we are shown poverty and conflicts without any context.
If I were not African, I would, after watching the coverage, think of Africa as a place of magnificent wild animals in which black Africans exist as tour guides, or as a place of desperately poor people who kill or are killed by one another for little or no reason.
I once watched CNN's Anderson Cooper, who is undoubtedly well-meaning, interview a Belgian (who, we were told, was a "Congo expert") about the conflict in that country, while Congolese people stood in the background and watched. Surely there was a Congolese who was qualified to speak about Congo. Surely there are Congolese who are working just as hard as the foreigners and who don't fit into the category of either killer or killed. Surely the future for Africa should be one in which Africans are in a position to raise their own children.
Which brings me back to Madonna. I applauded her funding of orphanages in Malawi. I wish, however, that instead of asking television viewers to go to Africa and adopt, she had asked them to send a check to malaria-eradication organizations. I wish she had added, after one of those thoughtfully dramatic pauses, that Africa cannot depend on aid alone, that aid is like salted peanuts: The more failed leaders got, the more they wanted. I wish she had said that she was setting up an organization to use donations as micro-credit and that this organization, by the way, would be run by locals rather than expatriate staff whose expatriate salaries raise the rent in the cities.
I wish she had pointed out, with suitable celebrity-style rage, that Western countries need to stop appeasing and propping up hopeless African leaders, that Western banks must stop enabling and accepting stolen money from these leaders, that Western donors who insist on the free movement of capital across borders must also insist on the free movement of labor, that Western trade subsidies make it impossible for Africans to compete. I wish she had then shown, with graphs on the screen, how these things affect the father and relatives of David Banda.
Of course this isn't really about Madonna. It is about a formula that well-meaning people have adopted in looking at Africa, a surface-only, let's-ignore-the-real-reasons template that African experiences have all been forced to fit in order to be authentically "African." If I were not African, I wonder whether it would be clear to me that Africa is a place where the people do not need limp gifts of fish but sturdy fishing rods and fair access to the pond. I wonder whether I would realize that while African nations have a failure of leadership, they also have dynamic people with agency and voices. I wonder whether I would know that Africa has class divisions, that wealthy Africans who have not stolen from their countries actually exist. I wonder whether I would know that corrupt African countries are also full of fiercely honest people and that violent conflicts are about resource control in an environment of (sometimes artificial) scarcity.
Watching David Banda's father, I imagined a British David visiting him in 2021 and I wondered what they would talk about.
Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, a novelist, is the author of "Half of a Yellow Sun."
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 1141
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 08:48 pm: |
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Nice post Yvettep. It was very interesting. Curious to see how others will respond.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5772
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 12:11 am: |
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It was an interesting article which I would not dispute. All I would do is to simply match the author's cynicism by noting that "beggars can't be choosey" and that instead of wishing what the rest of the world would do to help his continent, what he should wish is that all of the capable leaders he speaks of would bestir their countries to help themselves. |
Afroamerican
Regular Poster
Username: Afroamerican
Post Number: 199
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 05:51 am: |
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I've gotten into disscusions with many of my Sengelese friends over the sterotype that Africa is just one big ole' starving country befoe. I've tried explaining to them that this sterotype starts when Americans hear their accents and ask "where are you from"................
and they respond by saying "I'm African" OR "I'm from Africa".
I've then try (AGAIN) explaining to them that they're suppose to say "Sengalese" because that is where they are from, infact probably the only place IN AFRICA they've ever been. Uneducated Americans will not know every country in Africa, nor will they know about the living conditions in each particular country. It normally takes 5 minutes to start a conversation up with someone and enlighten them a little......
And I always get two answers:
"I want to represent ALL of Africa. The borders in Africa were made by Europeans colonizers. We're all African ".
or
" I just say Africa because most Americans haven't heard of my country".
_______________________________
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 178
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 07:52 am: |
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"Uneducated Americans will not know every country in Africa,...
That's rather insulting. I'm American and educated; it's clear that the vast majority of members on this forum are also American and educated. However, I seriously doubt that any single one of us can name all the nations that comprise the African continent and its respective living conditions off the top of our heads.
Can the average (educated) African name all 50 states that comprise the USofA and their respective living conditions off the top of his/her head? I doubt that, but I wouldn't consider him/her uneducated because of it. |
Yvettep
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1408
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 08:16 am: |
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Can the average (educated) African name all 50 states that comprise the USofA and their respective living conditions off the top of his/her head?
Yes, likely. Many are surprised how well informed most fairly educated people around the world are about us US Americans. We are woefully insular when it comes to our knowledge of the rest of the world, however. That is one of the most valuable lessons I learned from living outside of the US for 3 years.
"beggars can't be choosey"
That is just the thing: As long as others (e.g., "Westerners") frame the African continent in terms of "begging" we will never hope to assist with solutions. We Americans are (at least in brief stints) good with charity, not so good with justice, and frequently confuse the former for what should be the latter. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5773
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:03 am: |
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I agree, which is why America with all of its poverty and lack of health care needs to take care of its own and let Africans, with their particular brand of arrogance and condescention, fend for themselves. I said from the beginning that Madodonna needed to give that Mawali child back and adopt an African American orphan. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2125
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 02:21 pm: |
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What I can't figure out is if Africa is home to the oldest civilizations, then why in the world can't the people over there get their shit together? You would think after all these centuries they could figure out how to grow some food, develop irrigation systems and fend for themselves. And it's not that I don't give a care, but damn - I have my own shit to worry about. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 179
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 05:23 pm: |
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Thank you, Mzuri, THANK YOU! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5777
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Ditto. |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 07:22 pm: |
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I agree with the second reason you gave for why I call myself West African. I've met only one American in person who knows where Benin is. Also I have ancestors from all over West Africa from my father's side...as do many West Africans. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 1143
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 07:43 pm: |
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"What I can't figure out is if Africa is home to the oldest civilizations, then why in the world can't the people over there get their shit together? You would think......... I don't give a care, but damn - I have my own shit to worry about."
Wow! More unabashed and veracious commentary from Ms. Mzuri! Take no prisoners and tell it like it is! I like this. I've asked myself the same questions countless times. I've heard all the excuses, rationalizations, the truth and the straight facts and still the fundamental question goes unanswered: Why are so many black African countries awash in abject poverty, failed governments and despot leaders, massive disease, tribal wars and ongoing revolutions? The ”white man made us do it” justification has worn thin and impotent. Sorry to say this but the facts document themselves. And one other thing I would like to point out (something I have heard many other black Americans say), all my life, I have never understood the sheer arrogance and a seeming belief of some kind of racial superiority, by a many black Africans towards black Americans. I have never understood this. And I have no desire nor need to drive a political wedge between black Americans and black Africans, but this particular mendacious mindset has always bothered me. Perhaps one of the board posters can explain it.
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Yvettep
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1414
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
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I guess I will choose to believe folks making comments such as these are merely woefully ignorant about the history (ancient and recent) of the continent as well as unaware of the diversity that never gets reported--and not mean-spirited and heartless. That is the only way I can explain the last few posts that I have read.
Good night, all. |
Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 579
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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the reason that africa is generally in the condition it is in is because of the "base" nature of the inhabitants of that land mass.
south africa has the highest child rape instances on the planet earth. is this the work of the "white man"?
hell no. the black african men are raping girls of 4,5,6 on a regular basis.
africa has the highest AIDS rate on the planet earth. is this the work of the "white man"?
hell no. many, many black african men are involved in homosexual sex acts. they then return home to their "wife (wives)", give her the disease, and she inturn spreads it to her children.
africa has the highest number of tribal and civil wars on the planet. is this the fault of colonialism or the "white man".
hell no. the dark races in the land of africa are very violent and blood-thirsty. they take a great deal of pride in chopping of the body parts of other "tribes".
africa has extremely high levels of poverty continent wide.
this is because the resources of these nations have been stolen by a handful of their greedy "leaders". the heads of some of these african nations have hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars stored in european banks.
the white man is not the reason africa is the HELL that it is. the africans are inept and primative overall.
it always kills me when i see one of these ugly africans overhere in america, with his chest out and his nose in the air, looking down at our people like we are a bunch of ignorant "niggers".
overall africa is on the lowest level of civilazation on the planet earth.
when you read about the "great" people of africa and their accomplisments throughout history. those were OUR people who were dwelling on the land mass of africa.
the true inhabitantes of africa are very primative. take one look at the state the continent of africa is in for proof of this.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5778
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 11:34 pm: |
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The conventional argument is that Europeans raped and colonized the continent of African stripping it of its resources and assets and the white invaders were able to do this because, unlike the African tribes, they possessed guns and sophisticated weaponry. Now tribal wars and droughts and disease have ravaged this land. It's a very sad situation for the women and children but nothing seems to help. And rumors continue to persist that all of the funds poured into the country never get past the corrupt leaders. Yes, there are beautiful resorts and thriving metropolises in African, cities populated with educated and civilized people who, apparently, don't seem to be doing much to alleviate the plight of their starving and deprived countrymen. African Americans were brought to this country as slaves and endured 400 years of bondage and are still trying to acquire the full benefits of first class citizenship, still plaged with poverty and all the ramifications of it. Why should they have to endure the smug contempt and ridicule displayed toward them by so many African immigrants who come to this country and reap the benefits of affirmative action and the civil rights our ancestors fought for. And very few of these Africans seem particular about returning to their homelands to help the less fortunate there. So, pardon me, if I seem mean-spirited. |
Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 581
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 12:51 am: |
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cynique, the reality of the situation is clear to anyone who will open their eyes to see it.
there is nothing "mean spirited" about telling the truth.
the white man didn't "sweep" into the land of africa and take our ancestors as slaves.
the "africans (dark races)" kidnapped our people (along with the arabs), and sold our nation to the "white man" to be slaves throughout the new world.
our people who returned to liberia, have been terrorized by the "africans", since they got there. our men, women, and children have been being raped and murdered there for YEARS.
the africans are jealous of our people, and have GREAT contempt for us.
the africans can go straight to HELL! |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2129
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 01:02 am: |
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Yvette - Trust me, Cynique, UrbanScribe, NTFS and myself are NOT woefully ignorant. The mother of civilization should not be in such dire straits. The real ignorance lies with the people who have over the eons allowed themselves to deteriorate to this condition, and with the outsiders who believe that throwing money at this problem is going to have a lasting impact. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 1145
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 06:20 am: |
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”I guess I will choose to believe folks making comments such as these are merely woefully ignorant about the history (ancient and recent) of the continent……………”.
Wrong! Trust me Yvettep, contrary to what you believe, I am very aware of Africa’s history. I am very cognizant and knowledgeable about Kush (the Egyptian name for ancient Nubia) which was the site of a highly advanced ancient black African civilization that rivaled Egypt in wealth, power and cultural development. I know about Mali, Songhay, Benin, the great temples of Abu Simbel, Pharaoh Ramses II and black Egypt. And yes, I have read Cheikh Anta Diop's writings. I am also totally literate in the contemporary history of black Africans struggle for freedom from colonization in the 1950’s and 60’s. And if anyone believes blacks have no history prior to slavery, I strongly advise you to read a chapter in a wonderful book written by Charles E. Siberman (Crisis In Black and White –written in 1964!) called, "Lost and Found: Africa and the Negro Past". It will set the record straight very quickly!
When I was in college, I did a lot of personal research and a paper on the art of the Benin Empire which had the largest political system of the Guinea Coast toward the middle of the sixteenth century. When British forces invaded Benin City in the late 19th century, they were stunned to find the level of artistic sculptures cast in brass and bronze. They could not believe the technological sophistication, beauty and quality of these objects could possibly be made by black Africans. Their findings were in total contradiction to what many white westerners believed about black Africa. In fact, their racism attempted to rationalize what they found by assuming the sculptures must have been made by the Portuguese, the Egyptians, or the lost tribes of Israel.
Anyway, enough of that. I’m rambling now. Bottom line is this; Your suggestion that I am ignorant (as are the other posters) of African history is false and contrary to the facts. But given what I historically already know, it does not explain the widespread chaos, desperation, illiteracy, disease, poverty and wars that are strangling the life out of so many black African countries. Nor does it justify the arrogance and racism of black Africans towards black Americans.
I know this is an extremely sensitive subject for many black people like yourself. This I can understand. But it does not realistically diminish nor invalidate the obvious.
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Yvettep
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1415
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 07:53 am: |
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Different views, then. I'll leave this topic alone, since the research others have done have led them to vastly different conclusions than my own. I'm not sure about the "sensitive subject" and "people like yourself" parts: I am only "sensitive" because I have learned to be skeptical of the received wisdom about the African continent, its ills, and the reasons why it got that way. Once I began adopting that attitude, I was very surprised to find how vast the literature is that discusses little known histories. I felt like the first time I read a Black history book or Zinn's "People's History": "Why is this stuff not taught in schools? Why did I not know about this?"
And in case folks are wondering, this literature is not the fact-challenged, myth-infused Afrocentric stuff that was popular in the 80s, but legitimate scholarship painstakingly documented.
I am guessing that intelligent, internet-savvy and literate folks who say they are not ignorant of the situation have read these same books. Like I said, we must have just come to different conclusions. I do not understand how that can be, but there it is. |
Tropical_storm
Newbie Poster
Username: Tropical_storm
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
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all my life, I have never understood the sheer arrogance and a seeming belief of some kind of racial superiority, by a many black Africans towards black Americans. I have never understood this. And I have no desire nor need to drive a political wedge between black Americans and black Africans, but this particular mendacious mindset has always bothered me. Perhaps one of the board posters can explain it.
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I don’t have much time to get into this but one can start by comparing Liberia to other African countries. One should also compare Blacks in America to Africans in America.
I'll continue when I have more time.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5781
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
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All of this esoteric history about Africa doesn't seem to have any practical application because people can't live off their noble past or profit from injustices they suffered. Since there is all of this affluence and culture presently existing in Africa that people supposedly don't know about because they have misconceptions, why don't the strong help their weak countrymen? Curing the ills of Africa is a monumental, ongoing task because with the exceptions to the rule, this continent is among the cesspools of the world. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 180
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 01:54 pm: |
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My take on Blacks born in Africa is that they know humankind originated on the African continent. Therefore they may feel false superiority over all "Johnny come latelys" to the human race.
In comparison to Black Africans, Black Americans are one of the world's youngest ethnic groups. There was no such thing as a Black American or a Latino (as we know them today) until the early 1600s. Add to that fact that the vast majority of American Blacks are mixed, whether they look it or not, whether that mixture occurred ten generations ago or they're the direct product of interracial marriage, that really makes Black Americans babies on the evolutionary chain.
However, having been to Africa and seeing with my own eyes the living conditions, I have to conclude that it's much, much better to be poor in America than poor in Africa. Poor in America means you'll eat unhealthily. Poor in Africa means - you ain't eating.
Like Cynique said, the African "continent is among the cesspools of the world." Whatever glory Africa once had they ain't got it no mo'. This probably explains why all the African "royalty" in New York City are cab drivers.
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Tropical_storm
Newbie Poster
Username: Tropical_storm
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 04:16 pm: |
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Excellent article!
It is clear that the Western media has a very self-serving agenda with regards to issues relating to the African continent. Unfortunately, profiling the many Africans in Africa and in North America that are making positive, meaningful contributions is not a ratings winner. Ratings inform the media that what people want to see are desperately poor, helpless, hopeless people with black skin who need the “almighty white man” to come in and save them.
In the case of the United States and South Africa, I also see it as a tool to keep Blacks and Africans in their place and justify slavery and apartheid. The reasoning being that slavery and white rule is the greatest thing that ever happened to Blacks and Africans. The portrayal of a hopeless Africa is a message that--- ‘See, we were right all along when we told you that you were inferior, sub-humans. If you think that living under white oppression is bad then try living under your own governance. You can’t even rule yourselves but yet have the nerve to complain about conditions in America and South Africa.”
The above is the justification Richard Nixon used to compare Blacks to dogs. Sadly, many Blacks also believe this. In the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, a Black minister (I’m sure some of you here will be familiar with him) wrote or spoke about Black people staying in their place and being thankful to white people for all they have. According to this minister, hurricane Katrina confirmed that if every white person left America Blacks would turn this great country into a Third World dump in 10 minutes (or was it days.)
So going back to the question of why people from such poor countries would feel superior to Blacks; it’s because they see America as a great, rich WHITE country. In their minds, if every white person left America and there were only Blacks left (no Asians, etc.) they would be much better off going back to live in their respective countries than to live in an all-Black America, which to them would QUICKLY become one of the poorest nations on earth.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5783
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 05:14 pm: |
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In other words, tropical storm, according to your explanation, an all-black America would deteriorate into the same sorry shape as Africa is now in. And why would anyone want to go from the frying pan into the fire by returning to Africa? Furthermore, it's very possible that, free from the restraints of racism, an all-black America might rise to the challenge. Of course, all of this is academic but as far as Africans are concerned, it's a case of the pot callin the kettle black when they seek to sneer at African-Americans. |
Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 582
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 06:02 pm: |
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its a TOTAL LIE that "black americans" as we know them today did not exist prior to the 1600's.
our nation (black americans, as we are now called, west indians, black brazilians etc) have existed since the beginning of human history. WE are the first people on the planet earth.
the whole idea that we as a people are some kind of "watered-down" racial group, that recently came in to existance, was started in an effort to ERASE us from history.
"black americans" ARE NOT "babies" on the evolutionary chain. nor do we look the way we do, because of "race mixing". these ideas about us have been pushed into some of our heads by those nations who hate and envy us.
the black people in america are the original people of the planet earth. ALL OTHER NATIONS (including the dark races in africa) are our children.
the black people throughout north, south, and central america, are a distinct special people.
it insults our ancestors to attempt to say that we did not exist as a people until the 1600's.
our history as a people goes back as far as human history does.
yes, the way our people look TODAY in america, is the SAME way we looked 4000 years ago.
we are not a "new race". we are not the product of "race-mixing". we are not a "un-pure" version of the "africans".
we are today, and have ALWAYS been a NATION.
when we were enslaved EVERY effort was made on the part of those who enslaved our people, to make us FORGET our past. this is why some of our people think we just "came into existence".
if you want to conquer a people (mentally and physically), the best way to do this is to DESTROY their history. this was done to our nation in slavery.
let us not be tricked into thinking we have not always been a distinct people. we have and always will be.
our people are in america today as a nation, and we were together as a nation when we dwelled in africa. and we were a nation thousands of years before that.
the way whitney houston, kobe bryant, denzel washington, will smith, michael jordan, joy bryant, ludacris, snoop dog,etc look physically(im naming celebrities, so we can have a mental image), is the SAME way our people looked 3000 years ago. our people look the way we do, because we are a distinct people. not because we are "mixed", or some non-sense.
when will we have ANY pride in OURSELVES? |
Tropical_storm
Newbie Poster
Username: Tropical_storm
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 06:22 pm: |
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“In other words, tropical storm, according to your explanation, an all-black America would deteriorate into the same sorry shape as Africa is now in.”
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The theory is that the white run America we live in is the richest country on the planet yet the life expectancy and infant mortality rates of its Black citizens rivals some of the poorest countries in the world. So would an all-Black America be better?
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“And why would anyone want to go from the frying pan into the fire by returning to
Africa?”
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I suppose the calculation is that the statistics show that those in America are doing better than Blacks and not many in Africa are doing worse than Liberians. So no matter where they end up, they would be better off than living in an all-Black country.
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“Furthermore, it's very possible that, free from the restraints of racism, an all-black America might rise to the challenge.”
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Absolutely!
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“Of course, all of this is academic but as far as Africans are concerned, it's a case of the pot callin the kettle black when they seek to sneer at African-Americans.”
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Pretty much.
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 181
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 06:42 pm: |
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Lil_ze,
If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that Blacks have ALWAYS lived in this country (America) since the beginning of time?
You're saying that before America was "discovered," Blacks, as we know them today, were ALREADY HERE?
You're saying that our ancestors were not forced to this country from Africa in shackles in the 1600s?
This is how I'm using the term Black American. But if I'm wrong then teach the fool sumpin! Could you refer me to some literature where I can read up on Blacks having been in what we now know as America since day one?
I know the indigenous peoples were here, which we now refer to as Native Americans. I also know that several settlers who came to America were Blacks. They came here freely and were NOT slaves. In fact, they came here BEFORE the trans-atlantic slave trade even existed. But I am unfamiliar with what it is I believe you're saying; that Blacks are indigenous to this nation we call America.
Please enlighten me. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 08:29 pm: |
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"I know the indigenous peoples were here, which we now refer to as Native Americans. I also know that several settlers who came to America were Blacks. They came here freely and were NOT slaves. In fact, they came here BEFORE the trans-atlantic slave trade even existed. But I am unfamiliar with what it is I believe you're saying; that Blacks are indigenous to this nation we call America."
Thank you very much for your questions. You just beat me to the punch. I too am waiting for his detailed academic response of an unknown history of indigenous ancient black American civilizations. But I believe he is referring to Ivan Van Sertima’s contention about a hidden history of pre-Columbian contact between Africans and Native Americans and the Olmec people. This should be good.....
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5784
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 08:51 pm: |
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Please enlighten me, too, Lil-ze. What you are saying sounds like the personal theory of someone who wants to pick and choose which species of blackness to identify with. Can these claims be susbstantiated with something like racial DNA?
And, I also question Tropical Storms's extrapolation about the life expectancy and infant mortality rate of black Americans as compared to the figures in poor countries of the world. Is she comparing them to poor blacks who populate the African continent or the to less affluent nationalities in Asia and Europe? And to use the Liberian experiment which took place almost 200 years ago as a model of what would happen in the 21st century is also a specious premise.
When all is said and done, can anybody say for certain anything about the conglomerate that is comprised of people of color in North America? Seems like folks can just verbalize their whims in regard to this subject. |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 96
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 09:36 pm: |
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Cynique Africa is not a cesspool by far. It is absurd to lump all of the world's second largest landmass under the cesspool label, especially since western cameras and tourists are always vacationing there to get a taste of the beauty they have destroyed. Our continent has been inhabited by humans far longer than any other and still has some of the most beautiful places on this planet. Westerners and some Africans call it "undeveloped" because it's not a concrete jungle like much of your places of residence. However each time I smell New York I think of cesspools. Much of the Bronx is nothing but filth on filth yet I doubt that anyone would say the same of Allada.
I don't think that the writer of that article was encouraging outsiders to save Africa. They were simply offering advice to the many missionary types who insist on saving Africa so that they can better direct their "goodwill". I admit 100% that some Africans will beg for the last penny from anyone's pocket and continuously ask the world to save them. Just as some Americans will sign up and live off of welfare for their entire lives if possible. The reality, however, is that no one is saving Africans but Africans and no one else will ever do so. If the lack of worldwide response to Rwanda and Darfur haven't convinced people of that I'm not sure what else is required.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5785
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 10:28 pm: |
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So it would seem that although Africa is luxurious in its urban areas and beautiful in its natural terrain, it is doomed because Africans are apparently failing to save Africans. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 06:03 am: |
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”The reality, however, is that no one is saving Africans but Africans and no one else will ever do so”.
Excuse me??? And just exactly what are the Africans doing for other Africans?? I can tell you what American/international charities and health organizations are doing for black Africans. If the black Africans are only helping black Africans (your words -not mine!) tell me what they are doing to curb the spread of AIDS/HIV? On behalf of U.S., there is the Lutheran World Relief which is working with partner organizations in Africa to address many of the problems caused by HIV/AIDS. They are working in Mali, Burkina-Faso, and Niger to generate awareness for HIV/AIDS prevention, provide counseling services and literacy training, and supports revolving credit funding for black African women's development enterprises. They also help educate orphans in an area of Uganda where AIDS has killed the parents of more than 50,000 children! They have also provided clothing and quilts to Zimbabwe, building a maternal and child health clinic in Mali and working to help stem the tide of AIDS and provide health care and support projects in Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania, and Senegal. Are the black Africans matching this effort? Details please.... And I'm sure you're aware that Kofi Annan has said that dealing with the HIV/AIDS pandemic requires spending of $10 billion annually. Currently, the United States provides about $1.5 billion of American tax payers money to this particular international effort.
If black Africans are providing assistance for their fellow Africans, why is the food crisis facing Southern Africa now entering a critical stage? Malawi has the region's most serious problem due to an ongoing drought and declining purchasing power and in northwestern Kenya, they are still struggling to address famine. Although peace has come to Eritrea, thousands remain in extreme poverty and depravation as a result of the war with Ethiopia. And the organizations that are providing technical, medical and agricultural relief to address this are not dominated by black Africans!
Also, the Africa-America Institute has advanced education programs for Africans. The African Medical and Research Foundation (AMREF) provided improved health for black Africans through training, capacity building and advocacy in HIV/AIDS, assistance in fighting malaria, water and sanitation and establishing clinical outreaches. Africare helps to develop self-help programs in Africa to increase food production, develop clean water resources, strengthen health care and deliver emergency assistance.
And believe it or not, the American Jewish World Service has provided development assistance, technical support and emergency relief to black Africans. AmeriCares has also contributed disaster relief and medical assistance to black Africans. Organizations like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, Children International, World Relief, Student Movement for Real Change, Global Natural Healthcare Trust, Harvest and Help are involved in helping black Africa. Not one of these humanitarian organizations are black and none are African! Yet all are attempting help black Africans by providing educational, health, technical, agricultural, medical and food assistance. Why? But according to you, such talk is no more than racist non-factual propaganda to make black Africans look bad. But I don’t think so. If the black Africans were so technically, economically and scientifically advanced and independent, why are the concentration and efforts of such non-African organizations so critical to the survival of millions of black Africans? And I am very curious to know what the black Africans (as a group) are doing to stem the massive AIDS/HIV epidemic, widespread famine, illiteracy, hunger and never ending civil wars on their continent. And why are black Africans standing mute and paralyzed on the sidelines while the genocide, inhumane brutality and enslavement of their fellow black Africans continues daily (with no relief in site) in Sudan? Why?
And finally, something I personally find to be very disturbing (and depressing), is the results and findings of the Human Development Index (HDI). For those who don’t know about the HDI, it is a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standards of living for countries worldwide. It is an international standard used for measuring the societal well-being of a country(especially child welfare). An HDI below 0.5 (it’s based on some complex statistical model that includes a number of variables) is considered to represent low development. Unfortunately, 29 of the 31 countries in that category are located in Africa. Why?
If you can provide details and information that show black Africans are contradicting anything that I have written, I’m more than willing to hear your argument. But from what the facts clearly show, your statement that "no one is saving Africans but Africans" does not seem to be the case.
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Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 584
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 05:07 pm: |
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well urbanscribe, obviously your ability to read and understand is lacking.
where in ANY of my posts did i say black have always lived in america? i did not.
i use the term "black american" to describe our people who are TODAY living in america.
i was attempting to say that the people who are TODAY known as "black americans" are not a "new" people. that the people who are TODAY known as "black americans" had ancient civilazations. that the people who are TODAY known as "black americans" have always existed as a distinct people.
i really don't understand how someone could read what i wrote, and somehow infer that i was saying that "black americans" are the natives of america?
NONE of my words had anything to do with that.
but honestly, im thankful that we ALL have the freedom to believe what we want.
so if you want to believe in somekind of kinship with the "dark races" who dwell in the land of africa, that your right.
i said that the people who are TODAY known as "black americans", have been on the planet earth from "day one". i NEVER said our people were in america from "day one".
believe whatever you want. |
Brownbeauty123
Veteran Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 05:29 pm: |
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Uh okay. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 182
Registered: 05-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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"the black people in America are the original people of the planet earth."
That is a DIRECT QUOTE from YOU, Lil_ze.
So tell me, where did these Black people in America, the "original people of the planet earth," according to YOU, originate?
To tell you the truth, Lil, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
I want what you're smoking. |
Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 587
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
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if you feel that im smoking something, then why would you ask for further elaboration on ANYTHING ive said?
if you don't know whether to laugh or cry, as a result of the comments ive made. then certainly there would be no reason for you to make ANY futher inquiries regarding anything ive said.
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 183
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 06:35 pm: |
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Lil_ze
I'm merely pointing out that YOUR assertions about Blacks throughout North, Central, and South America, as well as the West Indies, absurdly fly in the face of EVERYTHING we know and understand about evolution, history, archaeology, and anthropology.
What's odd is you've offered NO PROOF, ZERO, to back up your claims. I mean, you CAN prove this, can't you?
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Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 07:40 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption you have to be might naive to ask the question that you asked (What are Africans doing for Africans?). Africans abroad like myself send home billions if not trillions of dollars. Anywhere there is a large African community abroad you will find thriving Western Union offices and shipping companies around the world. We don't look at televised images of nameless Africans on tv. We look back at our memories, forward at our our futures, and we support us.
The absurdity of your question at home is amazing. Many Africans at have paid and continue to pay the ultimate price for fighting for change. My favorite writer, Ngugi wa Thiong'o witnessed the rape of his wife, was imprisoned, and persecuted for speaking out and effecting lasting change. We fight for our own freedom from famine, dictators, etc. It is not your Christian friends who have done it for us. Thiong'o is one of millions because even though you sit and pretend to not know it there are soldiers who are fighting in the Sudan whose lives are being lost on a daily basis to protect the citizens of Darfur. The whole issue of Darfur arose because of black rebels refusing to be ignored any longer in their own land. The southerners of Sudan died for generations before they prevailed but yes they prevailed. Severe mistakes have been made by the rebels of Darfur but the doing was done by us.
Your laundry list of western contributions could be repeated tenfold to describe what America is currently "doing" for Iraq. But democracy is not imported on warheads and real saving isn't imported at all. Much of the "assistance" provided by non-Africans leads to the very droughts that cause the deaths you lament. Western "experts", ignorant of African land cycles and balances, leech soil and provide us only with an opportunity to watch our children rot. Foreigners coming in to Africa is like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. Africa changes and Africa will change when Africans push for that change and not a moment before. Why don't you concentrate on Iraq and leave us alone?
By the way Uganda sent millions to hurricane Katrina victims and "saved" many of your brethren. Also I do my best to help black Americans convert to traditional African spiritualities..."saving" many. Maybe I myself should be canonized.
By the way I didn't say anything about black Africans being made to look bad or racism. Those are typical excuses that you may be used to hearing from your fellow American saviours like Louis Farrakhan who does his part to save Sudanese by embracing his arab "brothers" and insisting that white racism is the cause of the genocide allegations. Do not put words in my mouth. And save me from your missionary exploits. |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3504
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 07:59 pm: |
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"By the way Uganda sent millions to hurricane Katrina victims and 'saved' many of your brethren."
That's a very good point. When I think about Katrina, the very first thing that comes to mind is that we can't save ourselves. So, really, who are we to talk? |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3506
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 08:21 pm: |
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...and what's worse, we can't even begin to save ourselves because this country won't allow us to even SAY the word "poverty," let alone discuss ways to end it.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5788
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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How admirable of you, Dahomeyahosi, to leave the plush environment and modern conveniences of your beloved homeland to come and live in this flawed cesspool of a country so that you can send money back to Africa... Snort. Well, at least, Tonya is impressed with you. But what does she know. She thinks that the word "poverty" is never said in this country. You both need to get real. |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 102
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
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Cynique I'm not here to impress anyone. FYI my parents brought me here with them as a teenager. I didn't make the decision to come here. I have made the decision to stay because I have married a man who was born here and wishes to stay.
By the way Cynique unlike you I don't make any assumptions about people but may I ask if you have ever visited any of the many countries on the continent? I've lived here long enough to be qualified to describe your place of birth. What do you know about Benin in specific and Africa in general? |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 103
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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Tonya every population of people on this planet has serious issues. Everyone needs to acknowledge this simple fact as you have. Issues at home are the ones that people are qualified and usually driven to tackle. I say let people do the job of cleaning their own homes and if the windows need to be shut while the cleaning is taking place, then draw the shades. Strangers breaking down the front door under the pretense that only their brooms will work is just the rebirth of the white man's burden. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5791
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:25 pm: |
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I get my impressions from what you spout, Dahomeyahosi. BTW, I never said Africa wasn't a beautiful continent or that it didn't have well-developed areas. And I don't have to be an expert to know that famine, disease, genocidal tribal wars, ignorance and neglect are ongoing problems there. I have also made it clear that I think America should make its own black population its first priority. |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 01:13 am: |
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this is a really bad thread! why is there so little discussion of colonialism. Colonialism ended in different parts of Africa but these new nations did not have control over their economy. Consequently, independence was a question of creating a new constitution and engaging as a dependent nation in the world economy. But how does one become independent if they are economically dependent upon others? And this dependence hasn't changed!
If we look at it in the case of the US after the white former british subjects revolution, it is clear that these former brit. subjects had a huge population of free ass labor, as well as a burgeoning white immigrant and eventually Asian immigrant population to exploit. There was also beef between the Brits and the French, so that the US could work with the French.
The case of Africa was very different:
In 1957 when Ghana gained its independence, Nkrumah attempted to establish Pan African unity among African countries; now, while there was collaboration among some african countries, they were doing all of this during the cold war, so that African leaders involved in intra-African politics were always doing this with their eye on Cold War politics. And whereas the US related to the French and Brits. in the late 18th and early 19th c. in a position of power, Africans were relating to the U.S. and the USSR, and China during the late 1950s and actually to the present in a position of dependence.
This here, then, is the proper basis on which to discuss poverty in Africa, or even African America: looking both at the past, present, and possibilities in the future through an engagement with the economy and political possibilities. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5794
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 12:02 pm: |
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Knowing the cause of the dire situation in African countries doesn't impact on the effect. But solutions to the problem are remarkably simple: Irrigate the lands ravaged by drought, make peace between the warring tribes, and educate young males about the importance of using condoms. Of course none of this will come to pass on a wide-spread basis in continent rife with political corruptness and international alliances and a retrograde culture. So Africa will remain a beauuuutiful land with an ugly reputation. And the world-at-large will never see a dissipation of the dicotomy between the "haves" and the "have-nots". Not as long as power and greed usurp hope and charity. As for the U.S., in particular, it is as Capitalistic nation. Nuff said. The "rich get richer and the poor get children". |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5795
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 12:03 pm: |
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BTW, Yukio, I didn't give your post that one-star rating. I though what you had to say was enlightening. |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1435
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 03:46 am: |
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Cynique, my elder, if you had given me the one-star rating that would be your right. My comments not only identify causes but also describe the present situation. Your solutions would do very little, by the by!
Your solutions say nothing about Africa's relationship w/the West; and therefore, from your solutions, you are suggesting that the problem w/Africa is primarily an African problem. When in fact, it is a world problem. Since the transatlantic slave trade, capitalism has had a grip on Africa it hasn't let go, even though slavery and colonialism are formally oppressive systems of yesteryear. To solely locate poverty and problems in Africa with Africans is the same chicanery that led whites to call Jim Crow "the Negro Problem," and Europeans to conceive of their relationship with people of color as the "white man's burden" when it was and is always white folks problem and the black [wo]man's burden! It has been black people do have made the US a semblance of a democracy; and it was Haitians who established a legitimate republic of the New World.
Who owns companies, land, and employ Africans in Africa? Don't confuse the local face, often an African but not always, with who is in control over African operations; not exclusely, of course, but enough so that Africa is not really "independent."
It is not even as simple as "irrigating land," for the land has been ruined because of its misuse by Europeans, long, long ago! If african nations stopped fighting that would only mean that there would be more peace, but it wouldn't nor couldn't address poverty beyond increasing the labor force and the population in general [which could actually contribute to starvation.]This comment about warring african nations is comparable to the same about socalled black-on-black crime among African Americans. As in the case in the US and African Americans, much of the West's comments on warring African nations is a way to focus on a symptom not the problem, a way to scapegoat Africans and excise White folk out of the equation.
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3507
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
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Aw,Yukio,
I’mma have to disagree with you. You, Yvette and Dahomeyahosi have made this into one of the most interesting and informative threads in a very long, long time. Seriously, keep it coming guys!!! Just what the doctor ordered.  |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5798
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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You know me, Yukio. I always reduce equations to their lowest terms but I have never claimed that Africa wasn't victimized by outside forces! This is what I said in an earlier post:"the conventional argument is that Europeans raped and colonized the continent of African stripping it of its resources and assets and the white invaders were able to do this because, unlike the African tribes, they possessed guns and sophisticated weaponry." It's interesting to hear the rebuttals to my observations but nobody ever acknowledges that they are repeating what I've already said, or have they ever refuted my prediction that Africa is "doomed" and that it will remain a "beauuuutiful exploited land as long as power and greed usurp hope and charity." BTW, my stance on this subject has always been a defensive one, a response to the superior attitude of Africans who smugly criticize African-Americans when they ain't shit themselves, - something I'm sure the shit-eatin Tonya will deny. LMAO
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Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1436
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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Tonya:
Bad as in problematic . . .not black as in not interesting.
Elder Cynique, there is an analytical difference between what you say and what I say. Your comments lend themselves to the PAST, as I said above, while mine speak of the PRESENT. Though you use the word exploited, suggesting its presence now, your solutions saying nothing of the subject of your verb, exploited.
I am, as I think you know, not defensive. I laugh at African who think they are superior . . . it is foolish thinking on their part. BUT, as you know, I laugh at African Americans, West Indians, and the whole lot, who think they are superior . . . that too is foolish! And I feel sorry and too laugh at white people . . . cuz they just dumb crazy when they think they are "superior"! This is all, as God Mother used to say, Foolishness! |
Dahomeyahosi
Regular Poster
Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 07:39 pm: |
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Yukio there are many Africans who agree with you and your analysis of the affects of colonization. These are the people who put the idea African reparations on the agenda. As we saw, that idea has come and gone. However there are a lot of Africans who disagree with you and find that the most pervasive source of Africa's current problems are African leaders and the effects of an inferiority complex on the general African populace. I can't deny that Africa's problems come from both poor leadership and a colonial legacy. However I will not lie to myself and pretend that non-Africans will right the wrongs they have imposed upon us. I think it's dillusional for Africans to think that the West will ever turn around and seriously address the issues they created. So yes the burden is on us and we must carry the burden because we really have no other choice. I agree with people like George Ayittey who support policies which call for African solutions to African problems and for Africans to look at their own reflections first when finding the source of problems. We say that when you point a finger at someone, four point back at you.
I think that a similar self-reflections takes place amongst all formerly oppressed people. For example amongst the blacks in the U.S. there is a camp of people who agree with Bill Cosby saying that personal responsibility is the main culprit behind black failures. Then there are others who continue to insist that the legacy of slavery and segregation is the main culprit for black American failures. I am not going to judge the situation that black Americans are in and I generally appreciate that non-Africans not judge ours. Unless invited, If I am to judge someone else's situation it is equivalent to asserting that they are incapable of coming to their own conclusions about something they are intrinsicly (sp) bound to know more about. |
Troy
Regular Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 449
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:51 pm: |
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This is a good thread, a good, thought provoking thread indeed. Thanks. I got no work done tonight I'm going to bed.
Peace |
Tropical_storm
Newbie Poster
Username: Tropical_storm
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:32 am: |
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Dahomeyahosi,
Excellent post! |
Renata
Veteran Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 09:45 am: |
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Dahomeyahosi, could you please write to me at mysisters_keeper@yahoo.com? I have a personal question to ask you that I'd rather not post here. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6798
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
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This is a most provocative thread. BRAVO to all who've contributed.
I guess I'll disagree with some when I say that given that American and non-American Blacks have been similarly dominated by non-Blacks, we are UNIQUELY qualified to critique each other. Perhaps we ALL might benefit from divesture of social and cultural hubris, especially given that we ALL remain mostly defeated people.
I will concede that I as an African American have mistakenly believed and internalized myriad false, hyperbolic claims about non-American Blacks IF my non-American brothas and sistas will admit the relative impotence of non-American Blacks enables and embolden potent detractors of you. But please do not take offense. Because very much the SAME can be and often is said of and done to us African Americans.
I often view American and non-American Black foks squabbling over how Black foks can progress and succeed to be akin to the 3rd and 4th string quarterback of a great football team squabbling over who has the strongest passing arm. Since NEITHER of them will really get a chance to PLAY and SCORE, the team and fans could hardly give fuhk about how well EITHER of them can throw. |
Yvettep
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1424
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:41 pm: |
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Yukio, good points about colonialism. I recently finished King Leopold's Ghost that provides just one example of what you mention. It is an excellent book--placing the Congo region in context of colonialism, greed fueled by the "needs" of the industrial revolution, and fake philantropy. I recommend it. (There is an entry for the book on Wikipedia that gives a good snapshot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Leopold's_Ghost |
Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1437
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 07:13 pm: |
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Dahomeyahosi:
Let me respectfully disagree with the position that “Africa’s current problems are African leaders and the effects of an inferior complex on the general African populace.” And, especially, the shibboleth that “to judge someone else's situation it is equivalent to asserting that they are incapable of coming to their own conclusions about something they are intrinsically bound to know more about.” Let me say respectfully that I think that way of thinking is, in fact, intrinsically problematic. I do not accept that form of logic:
While in undergrad., I had met several self-educated Africans, who knew more about the U.S., particularly African American history, than college educated African Americans, elder African Americans, and sometimes so-called historians of African American descent. In other words, beyond the fact that many African Americans had can detail probing anecdotes about being watched in stores, stopped by the police, and elder blacks can narrate their experiences during Jim Crow days: having to walk in the streets to avoid whites, sit in the back of the bus, etc.—these folk often have nothing to say about both what forces created the conditions for them to have these experiences in the past and the present. Now, sometimes Africans can not tell of a personal experience of racism in the U.S. [Though they may have been a victim and didn’t know it was the case]; and sometimes African Americans have never been to Africa, or they have and but know that their two week trip to Senegal, Ghana, and Benin is not commensurate with being an expert on Africa. But this doesn’t mean that they are unequipped to engage in a conversation about Africa or African America, especially if there opinions are grounded by lots of reading. In other words, it is problematic, especially on a site about intellectual exchange, to claim that one’s place of birth or ancestry intrinsically means that they have legitimate expertise of their own condition. Again, I say this respectfully. I have been here before, and I hope that this doesn’t rub you the wrong way!
With that said let me proceed:
On African leaders:
All groups have shady leaders; this too is certainly true of Africa. The question, unfortunately, is not about the content of character, as Martin King has said, but who has the Power?
On non-Africans righting the wrongs they have imposed:
I can not agree with you more. It is definitely delusional for Africans to “think that the West will ever turn around and seriously address the issues they created.” So yes, the burden is on Africans. But, the question becomes, how does Africa carry out this burden? It is, I agree, certainly a question of self-reflection.
On the effects of an inferiority complex on the general African populace:
By framing this issue primarily as an African issue, you are implying that Africans are solely responsible for poverty in Africa. This is important, because this can lead to another form of self-hate, brought about because of the idea that African is poor because Africans are irresponsible.
I believe it is never about solely improving your own house. It is a tripartite struggle:
1. self-reflection and self-improvement: improving national economy, education, the government, and general civil society.
2. Call a spade a spade, if at the very least this is done amongst yourselves. If you think it is primarily a question of point one, you will never address the dependent economic relationship between Africa and the West. Again, I am not talking only about the past, but the present. What of the African labor movement? What about demanding that employers provide health-care? What about demanding Western and Asian investors to contribute to the development of roads, sanitation systems. What of the multinationals companies in Africa right now?
The problem is, and this is always THE problem for the oppressed, WE have to get by, we have those daily needs—eating, place to live, etc—and oftentimes, if we call a spade a spade, we are left out in the cold, stranded with nothing but a critique of the exploiters’ exploits! So we compromise, and these compromises rarely are in our favor.
In my opinion, point one—to “support policies which call for African solutions to African problems and for Africans to look at their own reflections”—is such a compromise. In a very basic way, it is a measure to demonstrate to the world that Africans can be responsible and self-sufficient. And this measure, as I have stated, is all to the good. But by itself, it is insufficient!
How can Africa become self-sufficient w/o addressing multinationals? If Africa got rid of all of its terrible leaders, how would these better leaders change the relationship w/the West? What else can African leaders can do besides choose not to work with the exploitive West. If this is done, doesn’t this still mean that these leaders must establish better and more acceptable foreign commercial relationships with those in the West who will invest in and trade w/Africa with more parity? And in doing this, wouldn’t Africa make the claim—indeed take a position—that refuses to be taken advantage of by the West and multinationals? And to say this, of course, would be calling a spade a spade, NO?
3. Build viable internationalist coalitions! If we revisit Africa’s history, we can look back at the Asian-African Conference at Bandung [1955], the various Pan African Conferences, particularly the 1945 Manchester PAC and the various political relationships between Africa and its Diaspora, from the Council on African Affairs to the more recent TransAfrica. Also the world labor movement has in its own way contributed to African’s well-being, including the International Labor Organization, and the World Federation of Trade Unions. Of course, there are problems with coalitions too, but they are necessary. In this day and age where everything is connected—and I’m not talking about the internet—but the economic, markets, etc…it is impossible to initiate any movement without engaging your oppressors.
Respectfully Yours,
Yukio
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Dahomeyahosi
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Username: Dahomeyahosi
Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2006
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Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 09:23 pm: |
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Yukio,
Yours was quite a post.
First to address the idea that a person's place of birth leads them to be an automatic expert on that place. This is not what I meant to imply. I personally believe it is necessary to be African in order to be an African "expert" (though I honestly have no comfortable definition of that words) though "Africaness" is by no means sufficient. Ignorance can be found in surprising places. I feel this way primarily because non-Africans lack an understanding of the unique cultures that we are raised in and their impact on our psyches. They lack an understanding of the nuances involved in tackling the inherently huge clashes between African and non-African ways of life. Those Africans who have grown up and been educated abroad tend to have the same problems with navigation when they come back "home." Culture is everything...it gives birth our actions and thoughts without us even knowing what is driving us. It dictates and defines normalcy. Outsiders can not understand the "normalcy" and balance that drive insiders and so they make huge tactical errors when prescribing remedies to our problems. Books can not teach culture. They may teach simple things like the importance of eating with your right hand rather than your left but they can not teach you what is and what isn't corruption. Given that most of the books supposedly about Africans are written by non-Africans we just go around in viscious circles when our knowledge relies solely on these sources.
For example, one of the cultural chasms that differentiates Beninese and Americans is the American idea that each human life is precious...I call it the unique snowflake syndrome after a movie I watched. There was an article in the New York times just today about African infant mortality. It touched upon the fact that many African babies are not mourned until the soul has been with us long enough to convince us he/she is going to stay. Therefore there are many uncounted deaths (uncounted by westerners that is). I was not surprised to learn that in Ghana a child is named for the day of their birth until enough time has passed to attached a name to the body and soul. We have a very similar custom. Yes it is painful for a mother to lose her child for us but we move on much easier from deaths like this and many others because they are so common. The question of how much energy we should dedicate to making them less common is also culturally determined.
On African leaders and poverty I will quote Ayittey, a Ghanaian economist whom I admire. He has given this topic much more time and consideration than I have. "Africa doesn't need aid. In fact, the aid resources Africa needs can be found in Africa itself because Africa's
begging bowl leaks horribly. Corruption, alone, cost Africa $148 billion a year, according to the AU (African Union). If Africa were able to cut that in half, it would find more resources than the paltry $25 billion it gets in direct aid
from all sources." No Africans are not solely responsible for the povery of the continent. No one lives in a vacuum. But we lend a heaping hand to the perpetuation of poverty.
Africans have always had the capability of being self-sufficient. As a continent, our dependencies are completely artificially especially considering our wealth in resources. As individual countries we can certainly provide for our own necessities by finding niches in the global market and filling them. We had no need to beg for the overwhelming majority of our histories.
Let me clarify, however, that the mindless consumer-driven culture and materialism that I see in the U.S. is not really a goal I have in mind when I picture an ideal Benin. To be perfectly honest I'd prefer Benin to continue as it is than to go down this road in part because the planet can not sustain 6 billion Americans but mostly because we would lose ourselves if we go down that path. I grew up quite poor by American standards but I was not spiritually and morally impoverished as so many Americans are. They say 1 out of 3 Americans suffers from depression. I don't recall having the need for prozac nor did I know anyone else with this need in spite of the fact that we are much more materially poor. Neighboring Nigeria was twice named the happiest country on the planet. I believe that there could be a serious "exchange" in aid between our nations because we have an abundance of emotional and spiritual wherewithall but not a whole lot of money.
I am 100% against demanding that investors fix African social problems. African countries are fully responsible for putting reasonable investment restrictions in place to regulate labor, environmental impact, etc. but foreign investors should not be asked to clean up problems they didn't contribute to in order to gain access to our markets. Host nations may choose to spend the resulting tax revenue to do this but let's not make it an entrance requirement. In fact I prefer investors like China who have hands off policies politically. They are very honest in their dealings with Africa, making it clear that they are there only to fill economic needs and for nothing more. The West parades around as if it has humanitarian motives that it truly doesn't possess. In doing so the West attaches all kinds of strings to "aid" and investment although the aid that most of them have offered has been little more than highway robbery considering the outrageous interest rates and other requirements. Ayittey has an excellent book called "Africa Unchained" which answers many of the questions your posed in your second to last paragraph much better than I ever could.
With regards to your last point Africa has built many international coalitions...some viable and some non-viable. The CFA zone in West Africa which includes Benin has used a common currency since political independence, which I qualify as being very different from economic independence because we are still very much economically dependent. The CFA's value is directly tied to the Euro and was originally tied to the French Franc. This has been very attractive to some investors because it gives them the comfort of knowing that our currencies are relatively stable (the CFA is probably the most stable currency on the continent) but it also perpetuates the idea that we can not manage our own economies. The arrangement has been much more beneficial to France and now the EU than it has been to Benin, Senegal, etc. Amongst those coalitions that we truly need to strengthen and make into something that we can be proud of are the African Union, ECOWAS (Economic Community of West African States) and its military arms. I believe that African states need to focus on building viable international coalitions amongst ourselves because it is absurd to pretend that we exist separately. My ethnic group exists in Nigeria and Togo and I don't know of a single West African nation that possesses non-porous borders. A country like the Ivory Coast has had a huge upheaval mainly largely due to the presence of a huge population from Burkina Faso that has moved back and forth for ages. International coaltions pairing Africans up with non-Africans are important but secondary. It is more important for us to deal with creating intra-African relationships because our countries are enormously dependent on one another. The so called African world war has involved multiple countries who might like to pretend that their destinies are not intertwined but we all know they are. We need to deal with the oppression we are heaping on each other. We can not demand to be taken seriously when we are taking one another seriously. |
Libralind2
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Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 395
Registered: 09-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 05:54 pm: |
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I dont think you can talk about Africa without mentioning these types of issues:
Policy Talking Points (Updated 10/25/06)
Darfur has been embroiled in a deadly conflict for over three years. At least 400,000 people have been killed; more than 2 million innocent civilians have been forced to flee their homes and now live in displaced-persons camps in Sudan or in refugee camps in neighboring Chad; and more than 3.5 million men, women, and children are completely reliant on international aid for survival. Not since the Rwandan genocide of 1994 has the world seen such a calculated campaign of displacement, starvation, rape, and mass slaughter.
Since early 2003, Sudanese armed forces and Sudanese government-backed militia known as “Janjaweed” have been fighting two rebel groups in Darfur, the Sudanese Liberation Army/Movement (SLA/SLM) and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM). The stated political aim of the rebels has been to compel the government of Sudan to address underdevelopment and the political marginalization of the region. In response, the Sudanese government’s regular armed forces and the Janjaweed – largely composed of fighters of Arab nomadic background – have targeted civilian populations and ethnic group from which the rebels primarily draw their support – the Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa.
The Bush Administration has recognized these atrocities – carried out against civilians primarily by the government of Sudan and its allied Janjaweed militias – as genocide. António Guterres, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, has described the situation in Sudan and Chad as “the largest and most complex humanitarian problem on the globe.” The Sudanese government and the Janjaweed militias are responsible for the burning and destruction of hundreds of rural villages, the killing of tens of thousands of people and rape and assault of thousands of women and girls.
With much international pressure, the Darfur Peace Agreement was brokered in May 2006 between the government of Sudan and one faction of Darfur rebels. However, deadlines have been ignored and the violence has escalated, with in-fighting among the various rebel groups and factions dramatically increasing and adding a new layer of complexity to the conflict. This violence has made it dangerous, if not impossible, for most of the millions of displaced persons to return to their homes. Humanitarian aid agencies face growing obstacles to bringing widespread relief. In August 2006, the UN's top humanitarian official Jan Egeland stated that the situation in Darfur is "going from real bad to catastrophic." Indeed, the violence in Darfur rages on with government-backed militias still attacking civilian populations with impunity.
On July 30, 2004, the UN Security Council adopted resolution 1556 demanding that the government of Sudan disarm the Janjaweed. This same demand is also an important part of the Darfur Peace Agreement signed in May of 2006. On August 31, 2006, the Security Council took the further step of authorizing a strong UN peacekeeping force for Darfur by passing resolution 1706. Despite these actions, the Janjaweed are still active and free to commit the same genocidal crimes against civilians in Darfur with the aid of the Sudanese government.
International experts agree that the United Nations Security Council must deploy a peacekeeping force with a mandate to protect civilians immediately. Until it arrives, the under-funded and overwhelmed African Union monitoring mission must be bolstered. And governments and international institutions must provide and ensure access to sufficient humanitarian aid for those in need.
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Lola_ogunnaike
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Username: Lola_ogunnaike
Post Number: 282
Registered: 10-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 08:42 pm: |
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Great article. She's one of our top African Bootyscratcher authors. |
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