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Reggie
First Time Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:30 am: | 
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I would like to share with this group the rewrite of W.E.B. Dubois “Talented Tenth” essay "(updated for 2006), as well as discuss the concept of social class in the black community. Is there truly an Black upper class? If so, will they actually uplift the rest of the race? Is what passes for middle class in the white realm upper class for Blacks? Does race trump class in what is really important for the African American?
Let's debate this... I have access to a vast pool of knowledge and material on this subject. The updated Dubois essay can be downloaded in draft (watch for typoes) form from http://socialclass.org/index.php?name=Downloads&req=getit&lid=18, the class model (which allows the user ascertain there social class, please read the preamble before using the model) can be downloaded from http://socialclass.org/index.php?name=Downloads&req=getit&lid=2, and the website that deals primary in social class and the issues surrounding it is www.socialclass.org. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1802
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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Reggie:
There is a Black upper class yes.
They will not uplift the rest of the race they are like all upper classes out for themselves. DuBois was naive and writing at a time when there was a de jure Aparthied system that applied to all the rich (and there were some rich blacks in his time) and the poor.
The signs came down and the black upper class moved to the suburbs. End of story.
Race definitely trumps class-- |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:50 am: |
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Read the updated essay. I agree, Dubois was a little naive. As for there being a black upper class - yes there is one, but it is very small - no where near approaching 10% of the black population, hence the first of several glimpses of naivette in Dubois' missive. Still, the man was on to something, and it is very easy to point out his errors while looking retrospectively in the rear view mirror.
Race does not trump class. Racism is a subset of classism, so cannot trump class. Would you rather be on the top of the class ladder, but subject to racism, or at the bottom of the class ladder without any effects of racism?
P.S. Warning, this is a trick question! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4080
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:13 pm: |
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I'm not sure I've ever bought this Talented Tenth theory. And it's not because I don't believe the best/brightest should lead. Because I DO believe that.
To me, the biggest problem with such is many who might actually qualify as TT material are being bred and raised in environ's (e.g., duh projects) that are NOT conducize to their ever even knowing, much less REALIZING, the benefit of their enormous GODgiving talents.
Frankly. The ONLY way a TT process could work would be if we identified our best/brightest at their infancy and then REMOVED them from families/communities that would diminish their gifts and put them in some sort of godling academies or something. |
Mrs_hart
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mrs_hart
Post Number: 260
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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I haven't had time to read your essay. I will when I get back. Thank you very much for presenting it.
By the way: Dubois was not naive. HE WAS BRAVE AND BRILLIANT.
People need to think about the times and what IT TOOK for a Black man of THAT ERA to stand up and say "I am a man, I am human. I DESERVE RESPECT, and can make it by my OWN INTELLECT.
Children, THIS WAS VERY, VERY DEEP for the times. |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 01:38 pm: |
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His naivette is not in standing up for himself or the black race, nor does it run counter to the assertion that he was brave and brilliant. What tripped Dubois up was the assumption that successful blacks would not move to make themselves more successful in lieu of sacrificing considerably for the less successful.
You see, I believe that once you get a large cadre of successful blacks, they will start looking out more for their class interest than their race interests. It has happened already in many black suburbs, ex. PG county and mitchellsvilee MD, where you have curfews and conteplation of gated communities, in black communities in order to keep out other blacks.
Now, I am not passing judgement or even stating the ethics of such actions, I am simply relaying the facts.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4084
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 01:52 pm: |
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Reggie,
You've just explained why/how classism, racism, sexism and virtually any other 'ism endures: People of similar type and position typically look out for their own to the excusion/detriment of those who differ. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4085
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 01:55 pm: |
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A Talent Tenth could never work because too many mofo's would be trynah let their unworthy kin and friends into the joint. |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 02:06 pm: |
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Your right ABM, but another term for that is human nature. People tend to look out for themselves first, its natural. When the interests of a black man's/woman's class starts to outweight the interest of his/her race, then the class issues will take precedent. It happens all of the time, and to everybody. The reason why many blacks had solidarity in the first place was because most of them were in the same or similar social class, hence experienced similar woes - which facilitated their banding together. As that class begins to stratify, different allegiances take place, and I don't mean just Harvard trained doctors and lawyers. Evey wonder why there are no (and I mean not one) successful gangsta rapper left in the hood??? Does Jay Z stll live in Marcy Projects? Fat Joe still live in the Bronx?? How 'bout Jenny from the block (you that block is nowhere near the Bronx). Even the grimiest, like DMX, felt he had to get out.
So not only did Colin Powel and the Time Warner CEO escape from the Bronx and Bed Stuy, Brooklyn, but so did the alleged tough guys that would have supposedely bust a cap in that ass:-) |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 02:09 pm: |
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To add to the discussion, one of the more interesting stories from the socialclass.org site:
http://socialclass.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=38 |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3621
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 02:52 pm: |
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Altruism is rarely present in the middle class. Its members are trying to move up, not reach back. Only the rich can afford to help the less-endowed. And who, indeed, can exorcise the "I made it, why can't you" demon from the bourgeois mentality? It's a cliche but this doesn't detract from the truth of the idea that "the poor will always be with us". Poverty is an industry that employs achievers who possess the skills to be administrators and dispensers of the assistance society makes available to the needy. And the relationship between these 2 elements of the class structure is really a symbiotic one. And so it goes. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 834
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 03:16 pm: |
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Who are these Black middle class folks everyone keeps talking about who do nothing to help other Blacks? Every (yes, EVERY) "Black middle class" person I know still has family members who are not considered middle class--and they do various things to help those members. From buying cousins' kids winter coats, to paying for funerals, to bailing folks out of jail, to raising others' children (through formal adoption/guardianship or informal) to advocating for other folks children in the schools to having young people stay in their homes for a summer to giving them jobs (and on and on).
Blacks spend a higher percentage of their salary than many other groups on charity (from churches to sorority/fraternity sponsored scholarships and more). Black "intelligence class" members (e.g., ministers, college professors, journalissts, etc) are the ones advocating for liberal social programs to help the Black poor.
Just who are these people the rest of you keep bringing up? |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 03:28 pm: |
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Have you read the essay? I think it clarifies the issue. To begin with, the middle class cannot be considered the "elite" (I personally do not like the use of the term, but it fits). The middle class are not the owners of the means of production, thus represent a miniscule modicum of control in our society. The talented tenth truly should be the "talented 3" since rouhgly 3% of the black race in this country can be considered having both access and control to any significant means of production and/or socio-political control. With that being said, one one reaches that 3% level, one finds that the allegiances that once served you well no longer do, and as a matter of fact they work to your detriment and they start to form new allegiaces along class lines (pretty much the same way the old allegiances were formed, race is too often used as a proxy for class). These new class based allegiances may or may not include other blacks, but do not doubt that they exist. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 837
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 03:55 pm: |
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No, Reggie, but I plan to. I have seen the web site and like it very much. My comments about "who are these middle class" was mainly directed at other commenters here, and in the context of past class-based discussions we have had on these boards. As a lifelong student, however, I shoulda known better than to raise my hand without having read the required reading first (LOL!) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3623
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 04:04 pm: |
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Blacks as an extended family do help each other. But do middleclass people in general remember where they came from and reach out to help the needy in inner city neighborhoods? If we are to believe what all of these middle-class bashers say, they don't. The main gripe others have against the black middle class is that they look down on the underclasses and are materialistic status seekers. This impression is coming from somewhere and I certainly see a lot of it. And just because a person is middle-income does not mean they embody the traditions of the middle-class. |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 04:48 pm: |
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The Black middle class acts no differently than the white middle class, so there is no need to preface middle with black. The tendency to look down on others in order to percieve yourself on a high plane does seem to be a middle class trait. I have bore witness to it several times, personally. |
Serenasailor
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 05:07 pm: |
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I think the problem is that black ppl are out for themselves. Just take a look at these atheletes and entertainers. As soon as they get money the marry non-blacks and give money to non-blacks that don't need it. Bill Cosby was right in that the black underclass is in peril. However, he did not state the fact that the black upper-class did nothing to help there inner-city cousins, but instead tried everthing they could to distance themselves from them.
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Mrs_hart
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mrs_hart
Post Number: 263
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 09:08 pm: |
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I just have to say that I admire those early Black pioneers. That they simply stood up for us all against the odds. That they were even motivated to educate themselves when there was REALLY nothing out there for them.
I think that all movers and shakers get together at some time in EACH community in order to expand and protect it.
Asking themselves where they are going as a people and how best to get there. Trying to see how to best give voice to a community and in what manner to steer it forward.
Dubois and others knew that the majority of White America saw Blacks simply as simple-minded, babymaking brutes.
They wanted to portray to their own communities and the greater world outside, that there were educated Black people with goals and aspirations of their own.
We talk about why maybe these people were naive or whatever.
But we never ever pay tribute that they were doing it at the risk of their very own lives.
How many Black people at all today would stand up in the face of death and/or torture.
Because of the pioneers we are where we are today.
They have made the way for us and passed on the baton.
We should be doing more than arguing whether they were right/wrong/naive.
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Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 02:48 am: |
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How else can one learn from the mistakes of others if those mistakes are not recognized? I agree that Dubois was a great thinker, but he made some erroneous assumptions in his missive, which he actually admitted to later on in life. His greatest error is the basis of my original post, that class easily trumps race in the decision making process of the self interested - which is all of us. |
Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 264
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 03:13 am: |
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Reggie --
"Is there truly an Black upper class?"
Yes.
"If so, will they actually uplift the rest of the race?"
No.
"Is what passes for middle class in the white realm upper class for Blacks?"
No.
"Does race trump class in what is really important for the African American?"
Yes.
===
Since everyone here already knows (via past posts) that I consider the term "African-American" to be an ill-conceived misnomer, I will say that in the latter case, race (and skin color) trump(s) class at the expense of progress. And yes, when it comes to class, uppity rich and middle-class "blacks" (do) look down on each other more than they despise the homeless of society, for that matter. Oddly enough, the one's who have made it have absolutely no interest in fraternizing with their challengers, whom they view as a threat. You can't necessarily look at an individual and know what their social rank is, but you can certainly get a fairly good idea of what race they are "not".
Small talk? |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 08:04 am: |
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There is something that always bothered me, and it comes up fairly often. When people refer to the "bougie" (read petite bourgeouis) blacks, or the stuck up middle class, I simply feel me ancestors turn over in their graves. The attainment of middle class simply means that you have reached "middle america", it is by far nothing to be "uppity" about. The middle class family is an "average" family in terms of socio-economic accomplishment, and chances are they arrived there on the backs of those brave fighters thet came before them in the civil rights era and earlier. Now I can understand if we were talking about powerful property owners and barons of industry, but the average demographic that fits this description is an MBA making $120,000 per year, owning a house, an investment account (undiversified and tied closely to their main source of income, thier job) and a (depreciating) car that is too large a percentage of their networth. That is nothing to brag about. It is average, at least in the NYC area where real estate and living expenses make you working class at $75,000 and below. I have seen this demographic literally frown upon someone who actually does better, but simply lacks a college degree. Practically everybody is where they are because of luck (at least in part) whether it be good luck or bad luck. The key is making the most of what lady luck has thrown you, not denying that lady luck had a part in your failure or success. |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 08:06 am: |
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To add to the previous post and to be fair, the white middle class is just as guilty as the black one, it is just a pet peeve of mine that someone would try to lift themselves up by putting those below them down. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3629
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 09:52 am: |
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Don't forget that the middle class is divided into upper-middle class and lower-middle class, in accordance with income. The irony of the middleclass is that instead of being held up as an example of achievement, it is excoriated by those who couldn't rise above their circumstances. In the black community the one telling thing about subtle sociological distinctions between middle-income and middle class is that middle-income people will tolerate unwed pregnancy and Ebonics and a lack of a college degree. But middle-class people will traditionally stigmatize these "failings". |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4094
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 10:50 am: |
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The BIGGEST problem with the Black Upper/Middle classes is too FEW of us actually OWN anything of any consequences. We CAN'T pull up our less fortunate Brothas and Sistas because MOST of us are ourdayamselves one recession or layoff from being in the line at our local soup kitchen. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 841
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
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Amen, that. We must distinguish between "wealth," "income," and "educational attainment." Many of us have achieved middle class status (even upper middle class status) by means of educational level and income. But as to accrued wealth--especially *generationally*--no. |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 12:29 pm: |
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ABM and Yvettep, please download the class model. Social class is much more than income and education. Wealth, by far, is the primary contributor but you also have source of incme (the 2nd most important contributor) class consciousness/influence, dwelling area, dwelling, income, and education.
see www.socialclass.org, and download the "what class am I in?" model. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3642
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 01:23 pm: |
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When you start talking about inherited wealth and posessions passed down from one generation to another, you are not talking about the middle class. You are talking about the upper class, the privileged rarified realm of the rich. Middle class denotes people who live comfortably by working to afford a comfortable life. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4099
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 01:44 pm: |
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The Middle class passes down assets and affiliations as well. They're certainly not of the level/extent of the Upperclass foks. But they DO provide their progeny and community with valuable, enduring resources.
And a White daughter who's foks owns a modest but profitable mom/pop grocery and their family home free/clear of debt has substantially better chances in life than a Black daughter of GM workers who are about to loose their gigs to China and who's up to their hineys in mortgage and credit card hock.
I recall recently reading the average networth of a White household that has a annual income of $60K is ELEVEN TIMES than of the average Black household that has the SAME annual earnings.
Yes. Part of the problem is racism.
But part of the problem is ALSO Black foks need to manage their money BETTER. |
Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 266
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 02:34 am: |
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Reggie --
The attainment of middle class simply means that you have reached "middle america", it is by far nothing to be "uppity" about.
And from what planet do you hail? |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 08:31 am: |
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I hail from the planet of empirical reason. If middle class meant that you have reached middle america, then middle class really means working class since practically all middle class americans must work for a living. Following this train of thought, there is a redundancy in class ranking and the term working class is meaningless, since it really means middle class, at least according to your definition. Middle class originally referred to the petit bourgousie, or the small merchant/landowner. See http://socialclass.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=38 for clarification on this issue.
These are social science terms, and many tend to give a laymen's definition to a scientific term. Imagine redefining the O in H2O, then asking a chemist what planet he hails from....
Get my drift???
As for the uppity part, middle class americans tend to get "uppity" when addressing those lower on the socio-economic scale for apparent psychological reasons because of the desire to be above the middle america perception in into the upper middle america area - or at least that is how it is put by those that study the topic. |
Reggie
Newbie Poster
Username: Reggie
Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 08:43 am: |
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"I posted the wrong info. I'm tired and confused, but less discuss it anyway:-) And i stand by my points, no matter how contradictory ;-) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3670
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 04:07 pm: |
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In an in-depth discussion, you have to examine the collective conscious of the middle-CLASS, and it typically embraces the mind-set that I have worked hard to get ahead in life and I wish to enjoy the fruits of my labor, and I feel no obligation help those not as ambitions and industrious as me, people who won't help themselves by not embracing such middle-class values as getting an education and avoiding the baggage of too many children. Of course this reasoning is flawed in many ways. And to their credit, the middle class does condescend to be charitable and compassionate when it is convenient for them to be so. |
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Talented Tenth, revisited for '06
Socialclass.org Social Class Model