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Mrs_hart
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mrs_hart
Post Number: 255
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:38 pm: | 
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The "Minutemen" and White Supremacy Groups
In yesterday's Huffington Post, Earl Ofari Hutchinson wrote about illegal immigration and its effect on black Americans. I don't know of any definitive data that answers the $64,000 question. Do immigrants, illegal and legal, take jobs from blacks?
Hutchinson tells the story of a young black man who expressed support for the Minutemen, border vigilantes intent on stopping Mexicans from crossing. This man did not know that the Minutemen have ties to white supremacist organizations.
Orcinus has the story, including photos of confederate and Nazi flags at a Minutemen march. |
Newmark
First Time Poster
Username: Newmark
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:37 am: |
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I support the efforts of the MinuteMen. They're doing a service for this country. The U.S. government isn't protecting the borders. Someone has to do it. Its time, for the citizens of this country, to take matters in their hands. I am not advocating violence. But, to observe and report to the border agents on anyone crossing the borders.
The immigrants are working jobs, black folks wouldn't do. They will work for whatever is pay to them. Would you? For little or less. I don't think so. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4067
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 06:25 am: |
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I don't believe private citizens should be performing a job they're NOT trained and authorized to do, especially a gig as complex and perilous as that of patrolling a border that spans THOUSANDS OF MILES.
But I DO think the existence of the MinuteMen make a statement that's worthy of inclusion in the American discourse.
And I think Black American's would be better off focusing LESS upon haggling with illegals over low paying jobs and MORE on creating and supporting enterprises that will allow us to compete for a more generous portion of the American Pie. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 228
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
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Having roving bands of armed vigilantes out 'on patrol' is never a good idea.It's a series of needless, tragic deaths waiting to happen.To Newmark I'd like to point out that the reason most american-born wouldn't take the jobs that many of the illegals have is because they work way too hard, not because they make too little.There is a crew of five mexican guys that mow my front lawn.They charge me 20 bucks.That might sound like working for nothing, and it would be if they had a pace similar to what mine would be, but it only takes them about four minutes to do the entire front lawn.Two guys with these big lawn mowers, two guys with weed-eaters and one guy with a leaf blower and bam! A swarm of locusts couldn't knock it down that quickly.They have about ten yards on my street that they do and they do all ten of them in less than an hour then move over to the next street.It's like watching a ballet.After you subract operating expenses like fuel and equipment maintainence, these guys are still each making about twenty bucks an hour.That's not going to put them into the Fortune 500 but it sure isn't working for nothing either.The only reason that they don't have any non-mexican people on that crew is that they are running wide open all day long.Your average brother just isn't going to work that hard. I know I wouldn't.I don't think that there's been a white boy working like that since the Great Depression.That's why the goverment isn't very interested in stopping the flow across the border.These folks are performing work that needs to be done and they are apparantly the only ones willing to do it, and they do it well. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3613
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:52 pm: |
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I hear ya, Rustang. The same thing happens in my neighborhood. |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 160
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 03:37 pm: |
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Your average brother just isn't going to work that hard. I know I wouldn't.I don't think that there's been a white boy working like that since the Great Depression."
I think that after so many centuries of doing the dirtiest work in this country, blacks(and poor whites)don't want to do it anymore. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4070
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 05:07 pm: |
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I ambivalent about the illegal alien issue.
We all appear to benefit from the cheap labor.
But I wonder whether by doing so we inhibit the development of better, more efficient goods, processes and procedures.
Rustang. Maybe if there are no illegals, maybe some genius would come along and develop a way of trimming your lawn for 10 bucks a pop. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 230
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 08:39 am: |
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Abm: I suspect that, if there were no illegal aliens, lawn care would end up being controlled by one multi-national corporation and federally regulated and it would cost me 140 bucks after all applicable taxes and tarrifs were factored in. All kidding aside, there is already a company that makes a robotic lawn mower.It comes with an electonic boundary that you set up on the perimeter of your property and the thing stays within it,assuming that nobody gives it a bit of assistance leaving your property.It also has a form of artificial intelligence so it learns where all of the obstructions like bushes and garden fencing are.They're pretty expensive,but I figure that they'll start coming down in price. |
Serenasailor
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 05:16 pm: |
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The minutemen are a bunch of stupid, white supremacist, hillbillies who are working under the guise of "keeping the borders safe". Anybody can see through that thin veneer. |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 149
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 05:19 pm: |
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These Minutemen sound like the KKK to me.
The KKK used to patrol to keep blacks off the street or out of certain areas and towns, right?
Why doesn't the government just build up real barriers at the border? To me, they WANT those people to come into this country. That's why the latins surpassed the blacks in population.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4086
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 05:51 pm: |
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Why does one wanting to help preserve the intregrity of the nation's southern border mean he must be a member of the KKK or some White Power militia group?
There are A LOT of foks - White and non-White - who think something MUST be done about the flow of traffic between the US and Mexico. And some of those people are even of HISPANIC descent. |
Serenasailor
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 185
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 07:01 pm: |
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Why does one wanting to help preserve the intregrity of the nation's southern border mean he must be a member of the KKK or some White Power militia group?
There are A LOT of foks - White and non-White - who think something MUST be done about the flow of traffic between the US and Mexico. And some of those people are even of HISPANIC descent.
Add Your Message Here
Just like their are many white and non-white folks who think that blacks are inferior and should be kept in "our black". Also remember it wasn't just rich white folks who supported slavery. But many poor whites, free wealthy blacks, and many jews supported it as well. |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 151
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 07:06 pm: |
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The government should protect the borders, Abm, not racist civilians.
There should be a protocal, otherwise, there's going to be way more killing, raping, etc.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4090
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 07:09 am: |
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Serenasailor & PBG,
In my first reply to this thread, I said, "I don't believe private citizens should be performing a job they're NOT trained and authorized to do, especially a gig as complex and perilous as that of patrolling a border that spans THOUSANDS OF MILES."
But I don't think someone choosing to be Minute Man means he (or she) MUST be a racist.
Moreover, there are many people who own homes and other real property along the areas that illegal aliens travel (often on a DAILY basis). If I were such a person, I - a BLACK man - might be inspired to become a Minute Man TOO. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 233
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 08:45 am: |
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I couldn't really say if these folks have any sort of Klan affiliation, but it seems to me that a person that works all day and then, instead of going home to his family, goes wandering around in the desert with a rifle all night would have to have some pretty lop-sided priorities.If I got up from the supper table and told my wife I was about to do something that stupid, I'm pretty sure that she would tell me to put that rifle down before I blew my foot off and to go out and patrol the windows with a caulk gun if I needed something to do. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 633
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 11:32 pm: |
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A lot of illegals come across the Canadian border, too. But they're usually European.
I personally don't care how many illegals come into this country, AS LONG AS THEY'RE NON-VIOLENT and NOT TERRORISTS OR CRIMINALS.
I only see hypocrisy in how the white people came here and TOOK this country from other people, and now have the nerve to say they don't want other people here.
If they're peaceful non-violent people and keep to their own business, I welcome them.
They make sure we realize it's not OUR country, and now think we're going to possibly hurt other people just to keep them out?
If I lived near the border and they came across my yard, I would just put up a sign in Spanish telling them to stay off the grass. |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 184
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 11:35 pm: |
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Good point, Abm. I hadn't thought of it like that.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4111
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 05:35 am: |
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Renata,
A lot of illegals come across the Canadian border, too. But they're usually European.
Got any statistics on the number of Europeans that illegally enter the US via Cananda? Are they to the extent and affect of those who enter the US via Mexico? If so, please include them here for discussion.
I personally don't care how many illegals come into this country, AS LONG AS THEY'RE NON-VIOLENT and NOT TERRORISTS OR CRIMINALS.
How do you KNOW whether or not they well being violent and/or terrorist? And there are more than a MILLION of them entering the country every year, even if a small percentage of them are such they could still negatively impact MANY of us. And that doesn't even include the impact on our infrastructures and institutions illegals that those of us who pay income, property, sales, etc. taxes must PAY for.
I only see hypocrisy in how the white people came here and TOOK this country from other people, and now have the nerve to say they don't want other people here. If they're peaceful non-violent people and keep to their own business, I welcome them.
Interesting points. But then, where does it end? Should we just open the country up for/to ANYONE who wants to enter it? What happens if TWO BILLION or more - the VAST majority of which are nonviolent, nonterrorists - people throughout the world decide to emigrate to the US? Should they ALL be made US citizens? Could we as a nation and people HANDLE that?
They make sure we realize it's not OUR country, and now think we're going to possibly hurt other people just to keep them out?
If you're going to have a country, you MUST have some means of preserving the integrity of the land upon which it is housed. Otherwise, everything about and within it...and that including your and my freedom and LIVES...are placed at abounding perils.
If I lived near the border and they came across my yard, I would just put up a sign in Spanish telling them to stay off the grass.
Respectfully, I think I'll more seriously consider that comment if and when you actually DO witness streams of strangers trampling across YOUR backyard. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 636
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:35 pm: |
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I hear you, ABM.
Actually, I don't know how many, but that's not the point. If they want to keep ILLEGALS out, they should keep them ALL out. What they basically say is "too many of THOSE people come in, let's keep them out."
If they were as vigilant about keeping white illegals out, as they are about brown illegals (regardless of numbers), I'd have a very different attitude.
That (truly) is the reason I don't support movements like this. The way I see it, the white government is trying to make HIS enemy OUR enemy. Illegals of ALL colors come here, I don't know why instead of focusing on keeping them ALL out, they make it a point to get us to KEEP THE BROWN ONES OUT.
Also, they (the white ones) aren't as apparent as the brown ones. If a Mexican comes here, his children (with no accents and basically Americanized) are still Mexican Americans. If a Russian comes here, his children (with no accents and Americanized) is now AMERICAN, not European American or Russian American. White skin isn't "obviously foreign". There are more white illegals here than you realize. You just don't always know when you're seeing one.
The statistics for brown skinned people keep coming up as they try to convince us that we need to be vigilant in keeping them out. I don't know the statistics of white people coming in illegally. I'll be surprised if such statistics can even be found on the internet, but I really would like to know myself.
As the old saying goes, "I'm not racist. I hate everyone EQUALLY."
If they don't get pissy about white ILLEGALS, they shouldn't get pissy about the brown ones, either. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 238
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 05:06 pm: |
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My limited experience with european people has been that the INS jacks with them a lot harder than they do the mexicans.I have a friend that was born, raised and lived in Scotland until he was in his thirties, then his company transfered him to their office here in the States.It took him nearly fifteen years to get a green card.His job involed a lot of international travel.He would (and still does) go to Africa for two or three weeks, go back to Scotland for a couple of weeks, etc..He will typically make 5 or 6 trips like that a year and he gets pulled aside at the airport each and every time he comes back, so they can 'question' him for an hour or so.They were doing that looong before 9/11 and are still doing it to this day.He isn't involved in drugs, doesn't belong to any radical groups of any sort, he's just a guy from somewhere else that, by their reasoning, took a very good job away from a white american.I'd have to say that about 90% of the white american men would just love to have his job.He makes about 400K a year, not counting bonuses and stock options, travels the world extensively and doesn't really do a whole hell of a lot for that.And, since he works for a company based in Scotland and owns property there, he technically doesn't earn anything here and is therefore not subject to income taxes.So, Renata, I'd have to say that they get REAL pissy with him on a regular basis. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 644
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 05:38 pm: |
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The INS has a real problem (for some reason) with people who leave the country and come back a lot. When you're filing for some status (I don't know which ones) you have to stay INSIDE the country for 2 to 4 years or something. If you leave the country, you have to re-file, your old application is void. If your friend has filed and is constantly moving from place to place, hellz yeah, they're going to give him a really hard time.
I'm talking about people who come in through Canada as visitors. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 241
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
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Renata: He has always maintained a permanent residence here.He owns a house.You have to have had your resident alien status (green card) for 5 years before you can apply for citizenship, but most people that come here, have a job and a place of residence get the green card pretty quickly.Certainly no more than a year after their arrival. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4127
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:31 am: |
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Renata,
I understand and appreciate your desire for fairness. But I think we have to be reasonable and logical about how to address what's ACTUALLY happening.
For example: If over a million Mexicans are illegally entering the US and only 30,000 Croatians are illegally getting into the US, you HONESTLY think it is fair, appropriate and HELPFUL for us to view/treat the illegal Mexican problem EXACTLY the same way we do the illegal Croatian problem?
I don't. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 01:29 am: |
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ABM,
I guess it's because I live in Southern California that I really, really understand what you're saying.
Like Renata, I do have sympathy and tolerance.
But I do understand...in a very real way (tactical)....what you're saying.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4137
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 01:45 am: |
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Kola,
I believe if we don't resolve this illegal alien issue...SOON...you need to be hightailing it outtah Southern Cal...REAL SOON. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1351
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 01:50 am: |
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First you made me cry on the Coretta King thread...
...now you made my heart jump and made me laugh my ass off.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4141
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 02:10 am: |
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Kola: First you made me cry on the Coretta King thread...now you made my heart jump and made me laugh my ass off.
See. There you go describing Destiny and my sexlife. Hahahahaha!!! |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 649
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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ABM, as for the one million Mexicans versus 30,000 Croatians....
Again, if they're ALL ILLEGAL, it's their ILLEGALITY I'd be fighting regardless of numbers. I'm not afraid to have the MAJORITY of people in this country be Mexican, so where they're from isn't an issue.
Those Minute Men aren't fighting because they're ILLEGAL, or they'd be at the Canadian border, too. They don't care about the Croatians coming here, because they're THEM. Too many MEXICANS coming in versus too few Croatians would tip the Hispanic/White percentages off from what it is now.
So, NO, they're not going to get me to get angry about Mexicans coming in, while Croatians (also being illegal) is tolerated. If they want to stop ALL illegals, I'd support it.
30,000 illegal Croatians are STILL ILLEGAL. Why isn't their presence feared?
The Minute Men fear living in a society where there are too many BROWN ILLEGALS. The white ILLEGALS don't matter, because they don't fear them as much.
I don't care. Living in a predominantly BROWN society isn't scary to me. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 650
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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The problem as I see it is that white america seems to always have some "logical" reasons for white people receiving preferential treatment over everyone else. This is one subject that proves it for me. If they want to keep illegals out, keep ILLEGALS out...don't make it a point to keep illegal MEXICANS out, but other illegals are fine. If that's the case, it's not the ILLEGAL they're fighting, if "some" are OK. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4171
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 09:56 pm: |
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Renata,
If what the Minute Men are doing violates American law, their efforts should be discouraged. But here's the problem with that: You'd essentially be making the politically unattenuable argument that non-American citizens have MORE right to illegally enter this country than do American citizens have to stop them. No politician who expects to CONTINUE to be a politician wants to fuhk with THAT.
Not every nation, people, language or culture is congruent with ours. So we cannot as a nation apply the exact same policy to every nationality who might try to enter this country.
And America does NOT have ENDLESS resources. So what does the country do: Exert the exact SAME material and political capital thwarting a 30,000 Croatians from illegal entering the US that you would to stop a MILLION illegal Mexicans?
That's NOT a racial issue. That's a common sense issue.
@ Do you allow EVERY individual who enters your home the same courtesies?
@ Do you like all of your neighbors the exact same?
@ Would you loan ALL of your relatives money?
Of course not, you would make a decision about how you deal with visitors, neighbors and relatives based on the quality of the INDIVIDUAL relationships you share, the expected/actual mutual benefits of those relationships and whatever inherent or formal obligations you share.
Look. If there HONESTLY were a millions Croatians illegally entering this country every year, I'd be rolling with you. I'd be clamoring that Bush and the Congress better do something about that shyt...PRONTO.
Dayam whatever color they are.
But, until you can provide any evidence that Croatians are having anywhere near the impact on American economy, society and culture that Mexicans are, I am going to error on the side where trouble for all of us is more likely to occur.
There are MANY flaws in the US's immigration policy. And I'd agree some of them appear racially slanted. For example. One of my pet peeves is how Cuba refugees have carte blance entry into this country while people from OTHER Caribbean nations do not.
If you REALLY want to vie to improve our immigration policies, I'd recommend you study how a Haitian native has almost as difficult a chance to become an American citizen as she does to become a Martian.
Still, believe it or not, everything is NOT just about evil White people lording over everybody else. Because if White American REALLY were as resentful of Mexicans illegally entering the US as you allude to, you can bet your behind there would be far FEWER illegal Mexicans in this country and A LOT of DEAD Mexicans littering our Southern border.
PS: There is only thing we DO principally disagree. There's nowayinhell I want the majority of Americans to be of Mexican descent. And you can talk all you want. But I PROMISE you YOU don't want that shyt either. Because if Mexicans were adept at leading productive, socially responsible nation, why the hell are some many of there foks scrambling to get HERE? |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 679
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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I don't allow every individual into my home, nor do I loan every individual in my family money. But I base those on their INDIVIDUAL attributes, not on there being too many women, or men, or tall people, etc. If I tell Jess to stay away from my home, it's because JESS has a problem, not because I don't like too many neighbors "to the left of me" coming over. If I decide I don't want to be bothered with anyone coming to my house, that means ALL of them.
I do like all of my neighbors the same, but they're all nice.
But, I stand by what I said. If it's the illegal they're fighting, fight ALL illegals. Exact the same resources to keep them ALL out, regardless of where ever they may be from.
I agree with your view on Haitian immigrants, and this is another case where people of one country are treated differently than people of another only due to race, nationality and/or religion. If Haitians can't come here the SAME as the Cubans, then they should keep BOTH out, not just one.
Hispanic governments are corrupt, but so are many East European, African, and Asian governments. The biggest difference is that hispanics can basically "walk" across their border. The others can't. Other people are in just as big a hurry to get here, but it's not as easy due to distance and cost. |
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