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Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1493
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 07:04 pm: | 
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This is part of the proxy that I have been talking about. While we debate the usage of the n-word. this author, the Cos, and author of Enough J. Williams have been lamblasting the black poor. Beyond the fact that one should remain in school, learn standard english, and not having children out of wedlock, these haters of the black poor have nothing much to say. It is as if institutional racism has been surmounted. Less clear, however, is how institutional racism has remade itself in the face of antidiscrimination laws. MLK, ironically, actually died trying to address these issue. But since folk only know the I have a dream speech, they have even misunderstood who King really was...Anyways, here is another attack upon the black poor. Enjoy!
http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2006/061105_mfe_December_06_Essay_1.htm l |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5907
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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A great many black people who criticize the poor either came from poor circumstances themselves, or had parents who were poor, and they are living examples of the doctrine they preach. They figure if they improved their lot in life, why can't others does it. This may be flawed thinking but even now for every poor person who is bogged down with baggage, there is another one who avoids the pitfalls of the underclasses and is able to move up. So it is also flawed to constantly villainize people who offer their advice to the poor. Just because the poor are helpless doesn't mean that they are heroes. The poor are victims, true enough, but they can also be pawns of "sympathizers" who capitalize on the victimhood of others. |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 154
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:19 pm: |
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They can also be self-destructive or afraid of success in life. There are millions of reasons why people end up poor that have nothing to do with the rest of us who work hard and carefully plan every step of our lives. Instead of partying all week or eating fast food, I saved my money. I went to library for entertainment and knowledge. I struggled for a long time but with perseverance I am financially stable woman who answers only to my mama. LOL! What inspired me was that I did no want to be poor at mercy of others. People are cruel when you are depending on them.
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Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1496
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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elder cynique: i understand all that you have said, as well as agree that poor folk should not be romanticized, that is viewed as heroes, and I agree that poor people can be pawns of these "sympathizers" of whom you write. This is indeed true.
But something must be clear: it really isnt about the position that “ for every poor person who is bogged down with baggage, there is another one who avoids the pitfalls of the underclasses and is able to move up.”
It is about the fact that those who are not "bogged down with baggage," the majority of poor blacks and latinos, are poor because of institutional racism and discrimination. Thus, the so-called underclass is actually a minority among the Black and Latino poor populations. This presents a real problem with the argument that assiduity is the only answer to improving poverty in these particular communities of color. Furthermore, no one person's life chances and opportunities are exactly a like another's. There are too many variables. Certain things, however, are constant, such as structural racism. This doesn't mean that hard work is not essential...many of the people who criticize Cosby are themselves, such as myself, products of poor circumstances, and who work very, very hard. Thus, like it or not, at least at the intellectual level, it becomes more than anecdotes and what you have experienced...
As I see it, it is really a question of acknowledging that racism operates beyond your individual and immediate experiences. It makes sense that I a kid from the projects can do ok and school and obtain a college education and others from my neighborhood not accomplish the same achievements. I can identify critical points in my life where I can see how my life chances diverged from my peers in the hood. As a reader, I also know that many of the urban conditions that we experience are the result of deindustrialization and under resourced public schools. Of course, some of us will get through the cracks, but the majority will not. And so, as I have said many times, it becomes a question of hard work AND challenging racism. This latter claim has not been promulgated recently. We are either getting angry about mere words or using the same n-word to denigrate poor black people. Ridley claims that his parent’s generation won the struggle for civil rights, but which history books is he reading. This is why I talk about MLK, because before he died, as you know, he was fighting economic rights. Civil rights, he said, were not enough. This is Martin L. King Jr. in 1966-68. If Ridley knew what he was talking about, he would never say:
Now, let me tell you something about my generation of black Americans. We are the inheritors of "the Deal" forced upon the entrenched white social, political, and legal establishment when my parents' generation won the struggle for civil rights. The Deal: We (blacks) take what is rightfully ours and you (the afore-described establishment) get citizens who will invest the same energy and dedication into raising families and working hard and being all around good people as was invested in snapping the neck of Jim Crow.
He is wrong! That’s not what happened!
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Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 584
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 02:13 am: |
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Yukio --
"We are either getting angry about mere words or using the same n-word to denigrate poor black people."
In reality, the n-word these days usually refers to po' blacks or "black" blacks. Take your pick. That's no figment of the imagination, either. |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1497
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 03:51 am: |
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Nels: The point is that a discussion of the n-word as M. Richards used it or how Ridley used it is a proxy for and a scapegoating of a discussion of instititional racism. And that since people presume that institutional racism is dead, they can make eggregious comments like Ridley, J.Williams, and the Cos. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5908
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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Yes, institutionlized racism is a fact of life, Yukio. It is at the fiber of the American tapestry, and the only way to be rid of it, is to tear down the institution and unravel the tapestry. Ain't gonna happen. The majority resists relinquishng its power and privilege, and the power which is an integral part of its privilege is what enables it to to maintain the status quo. Lions don't stop killing wildebeast because, well, - that's what lions do. It's the law of the jungle. Similarly, the poor, will always be with us because inequity is the bane of the human condition. But some things you just can't toss in the racism heap. Cosby & Co decry the breakdown of the family; and with good reason. Cringe all you want, but if poor women didn't have so many children out of wedlock, education, which is a tool for self-improvement, wouldn't be so handicapped by schools over-crowded with the fatherless, undisciplined children with no home-training who are so difficult to teach. And the controversy rages on. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3051
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 01:11 pm: |
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<<instead>>
This is the Bushwah that the powers that be count on to always keep the lower classes down.
The myth that "I did it all alone and anybody who didn't make it is f**d up"
Enchanted, there are men in the streets who are there because they were overseas defending your right to put them down for getting shot up, blown up, driven crazy or rotted out by agent orange.
You're a woman. Don't you know most of the poor are single women with children and elderly women?
Now, because you are probably a Republican, you will go into the unwed mothers are no good mode, and forget all the women who are widowed, or had a man skip out on them or go crazy or get sick and leave them in the lurch.
I hope, when you are old, sitting in your own filth,--which is how most old people wind up unless they die no matter how well they took care of themselves, oh yes. Go to an old folks home and look around-- waiting for somebody to clean you up, that you will be so independent minded-- |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3052
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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Yukio:
You don't understand.
The black poor are the easiest target in the world. Anybody can say and do anything they want to them without repercussion.
Cos had a rape case he needed to call attention away from. That Ridley Nigger probably wants some publicity for his new film.
You hear how sales of the latest Sienfeld DVD have surpassed all others? Racism, despite what Troy Johnson has tried to say here for years, is Big Business.
And so it goes. |
Zuriburi
Regular Poster
Username: Zuriburi
Post Number: 159
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 01:53 pm: |
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Yokio, in your opinion, how important/necessary is a positive collective self image in the initiation and sustainance of any level of activism,(be it local, statewide or national).
I know that you are of the opinion that the N word's meaning is determined by only its user as opposed to being a reminder of some omnipresent self contempt (of varing degrees) and/or a reminder of our constant and unending position at the bottom of the "social heap".
Does not a clan, race, tribe need to see themselves as 'worthy' of 'better' (or at least not "unworthy" of "better") in order to even begin to demand such?
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Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1498
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 02:19 pm: |
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elder cynique: you are right, partly. My comments do not affirm out of wedlock childbirh nor school delinquency. you know that! But Cos. and co., are saying more than we need to resurrect our families, they are saying that the social practices of some portions of the black poor responsible for their poverty...thats wrong. It is not a question of either/or...
zoriburi:
I am going to answer your question and then unanswer it:
Yes, a clan, race, or a tribe needs to see themselves as worhty....
But this method of thinking presupposes that societal relations--intragroup, intergroup, interpersonal, and civil society and state--are based on some meritocracy devoid of institutional racism and general structural injustice.
Unanswer:
To me, it aint about being "worthy."
If the MAN's foot is stuck down your throat you need to demand the fucker to remove it forthwith!
What does worthiness have to do with that?
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Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1499
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 02:43 pm: |
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Compare John Ridley with Martin Luther King, Jr.:
Ridley:
Now, let me tell you something about my generation of black Americans. We are the inheritors of "the Deal" forced upon the entrenched white social, political, and legal establishment when my parents' generation won the struggle for civil rights. The Deal: We (blacks) take what is rightfully ours and you (the afore-described establishment) get citizens who will invest the same energy and dedication into raising families and working hard and being all around good people as was invested in snapping the neck of Jim Crow.
-------
MLK:
The black revolution is much more than a struggle for the rights of Negroes. It is forcing America to face all its interrelated flaws--racism, poverty, miltarism, and materialism. It is exposing evils that are deeply rooted in the whole structure of our society . . . and suggests that radical reconstruction of society itself is the real issue to be faced.
Martin Luther King, A Testament of Hope, 1969.
--------
Consider that MLK's comments are after his "I Have a Dream Speech," and after the passing of the 1964 CRA and the 1965 VRA. According to MLK, the black revolution was not over, for it had yet to address the same issues that we are confronting today...
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Zuriburi
Regular Poster
Username: Zuriburi
Post Number: 160
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 03:13 pm: |
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Yukio said: If the MAN's foot is stuck down your throat you need to demand the fucker to remove it forthwith!
What if the man's foot is just pressed firmly on your throat, not enough to stop you from breathing anf kill you, but just enough to ensure that you can't get the fuck up. You've been there for a while now and guess what, it's not so bad. Your still alive. You decide that you are actually in a BETTER position then say 150 years ago when the MANS foot was actually DOWN your throat. So you accept it and stop fighting and even stop dreaming of one day STANDING UP.
Meritocracy? there is no merit system involved, I'm not, excusing or ignoring institutional racism Yukio. I just do not see it being challenged effectively by those who for the most part have internalized white supremacy and deem themselves undeserving ...or worse.
Yukio, notice the correct spelling this time. |
Zuriburi
Regular Poster
Username: Zuriburi
Post Number: 161
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 03:28 pm: |
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Regarding my post #160
When I say "STAND UP" and "challenged effectively" I mean garnering economic, cultural and social powers that are NOT dependent on the political moods of white america.
Fantastical thinking.....maybe. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5913
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 03:53 pm: |
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Y'all can get mad all you want about this article, but just because it offends your sensibilities and challenges your intellect and deviates from the standard rhetoric of victimization doesn't mean it doesn't have legitimacy because it does. The truth is the truth no matter what precipitates the truth, no matter what the scourge of racism spawned and no matter what MLK lamented, a crises currently exists in the black community, and explaining why the situation exists and bad-mouthing the people who focus on it are just smoke screens to cloud the truth. People don't have to be manipulated by The System or have to be paragons of virtue to articulate what they see with their own eyes. Those advocating that black folks, themselves, can to some degree solve their own problems by ceasing to do what contributes to them, is an example of the kind of independent thinking that dynamic black men espouse. Nobody is attacking poor old people wallowing in the squalor of nursing homes, and I question chrishayden's implication about the preponderance of poor black women having once been people of means who were deserted by their husbands. He is indeed romantisizing poverty. Whatever. These 2 schools of thought that have polarized the black community unfortunately haven't created a productive dialogue and, as a result, have become a part of the problem not a part of the solution. Of course others will rush forth with what they think is a new revelation, shouting that divide and conquer is all a part of the infamous "white conspiracy", but the idea that black people should embrace a herd mentality and recite in unison that "us cain't do better lessen da white man mends his evil ways" is bull shit.
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Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 155
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 04:01 pm: |
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Chris Hayden I'm not a Republican and my mama was a poor black woman single mother who raised me to 1. "keep my legs closed" 2. THINK about what I want in life 3. Pay attention in school 4. Organize my time and my priorities 5. Take any menial job I can get to build a work history 6. Work hard and dont complain my mama said always smile 7. Save my money wisely 8. Keep my personal buziness personal. This was taught to me by a single black mother who was poor. Now I can say proudly that I bought my mama a house and I have a house for myself. There was more against me out here being a black woman than is against any black man but I notice males in general tend to squander time and energy busy chasing "tail" and whining about white men out to get them. They would turn their nose up at me like I was inferior but I did what my mama told me. Kept my eye on the prize. I was poor, so was mama, now we're not. LAST THING, CHRIS. I have two older brothers. They both went to jail as teenagers but my mama straight them otu too. My mama put a tight reign on them and now they both work for the government and are home owners with nice cars and secure bank accounts. They married black women. Dark skinned blakc women. On this topic I agree mostly with Cynique because the truth hurts but most of what she is saying is right.
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Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1503
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 05:21 pm: |
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Zuriburi:
I dont think we have stopped fighting or trying to stand up. Yeah, I think your thinking is fantastical!
I do not think that we could really every "garnering economic, cultural and social powers” independent of the political moods of white America—at the individual level perhaps, but not as an activist group. But really, can one say that Oprah's or Cosby's wealth is independent of the political moods of white America? I don't think so!
I'm not sure if you are posting under a different name, but if not, let me lay out my position in general if you dont know it:
Internal:
1. I believe that out-of-wedlock births are detrimental to the black family.
2. I believe that education is fundamental to any community. Thus, a steadfast work ethic and plans are essential for individual success.
This must be done as individuals and a community, but in order to really improve the community, that is, improve resources in schools, better libraries, better health insurance and general treatment, you have to engage in politics, and therefore, white attitudes.
ex.:
I attended a magnet school. I have gone to college, and I am doing ok for myself. Some of my friends, however, attended their zone schools [the school around your neighborhood]; many of these kids eventually went to college, but (1) the school from which they graduated was overcrowded, the library housed old books, and they had no computers, etc...[I am in my 30s, and my middle school, this magnet school, had computers]; and some of them were academically unprepared for college. Thus, at the individual level there were some successes but at the institutional level--that is the schools, the districts, the curricula-- the community was under-resourced. And while, people will graduate from these kinds of schools, the schools need not be under-resourced.
In other words, individuals can do well or ok—such as Enchanted’s story or my personal story—but not necessarily as a group. And if these individuals do not cluster and garner this social, cultural, and economic power then how can they address institutional racism? Thus, you need these individuals to do more than do well for themselves, for their success, although a model, doesn’t necessarily address the institutional component, which permits individuals.
External:
3. Some form of activism that addresses community needs, such as better adult education programs, more jobs, child mentoring, etc...as well as antiracism, antisexism, etc... protest.
4.establish coalitions w/like minded groups and organizations based on common goals and objectives not necessarily race or ethnicity [since common race and ethnicity doesn't determine your politics as is evidenced by this site, the article above, and general history].
To some degree, 1&2 are independent of white folk. But, 3&4 aren't. It doesn't make sense to do 3&4 w/o 1&2 and it doesn't make sense to do 1&2 w/o 3&4, as I see it. All of this must be done!
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Zuriburi
Regular Poster
Username: Zuriburi
Post Number: 162
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 05:57 pm: |
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Fair enough Yukio. And I post only under Zuriburi. |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3530
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 09:06 am: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong: white folks have shit to boot their hillbilly kinfolk from. What do these Pie in the sky niggers HAVE to kick the rest of us niggers out of??? THEY DON’T OWN SHIT--how are they going to send us packing??--how do they bargain with someone else’s chips, and what are they gonna send us packing from???? (Get real niggers: grab a pot to piss in and/or WIN A FUCKING WAR!!) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5919
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:18 am: |
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The pie-in-the sky crowd are attempting to kick niggers out of the group that the greater society identifies all slave descendents as being a part of. They are doing this because they think that harboring "niggers" brings every member of the black community down to their level. And if these "pie in the sky people" didn't command a certain amount of leverage among 25 million black people, the vocal minority who oppose people like Cosby and Williams and the author of this manisfesto wouldn't feel so threatened or wouldn't be trying so desperately to silence their voices. As to what do these critics own? They own a legacy, that's what. And offering suggestions to get rid of excess baggage is better than shifting around, engaging in the counter-productive practice of shouldering the burden of "niggers". People have a right to disagree with these new voices speaking out but can they disprove what they say? |
Tonya
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Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3532
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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"They are doing this because they think that harboring "niggers" brings every member of the black community down to their level."
What level?? What fucking level they got??? Grab any American citizen off the streets and ask them what they know about the black middle class. Ask ‘em when they read their last article about them, watched a documentary, learned ‘em in history----ask them ALLLLL that they know about black people and it will be ALLLLL about US. Please, you are not you without US. The only "leverage" you got..IS US!! We all you got, motherfuckers--now that’s fucking power! Sooo…they need to shut the fuck up!--before they find THEMSELVES getting BITCHHHH-SLAPPPPPED on THEIR merry-LITTLE-way.  |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5921
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
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No they don't need to shut up. They need to keep on saying what they're saying until the logic of it sinks in. Trying to do better makes sense! Never mind what white folks think. Black folks have to re-define themselves. All niggers are black but all blacks aren't niggers. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5922
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:13 pm: |
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And I might add that I am paraphrasing Chris Rock not Bill Cosby, and Chris has plenty of "street cred". |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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thats right...Chris Rock has said that a long time ago..."all nigges are black but all blacks aint niggers"! His street cred. is dubious, actually.
I understand their logic, but it is faulty. Cynique, personally, I don't understand why you call what they say the TRUTH.
Now, what they say has truth to it, but it aint THE TRUTH.
The persistence of structurally racism is the proof. Some folk will just be poor, regardless of race and individual initiative. It is part of the system. This too is what you and I know is the truth. |
Chrishayden
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Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3057
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
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All niggers are black but all blacks aren't niggers.
<<Unfortunately white folks can't tell you niggers apart, so you are all niggers to them.
Remember that song "All Coons Look Alike to Me"?> |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3533
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 01:04 pm: |
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And I might add that I am paraphrasing Chris Rock not Bill Cosby, and Chris has plenty of "street cred".
Fuck "street cred." I'm paraphrasing those who actually LIVED and DIED for the struggle---I'm paraphrasing the likes of Tubman and the TRUTH:
I am not free until ALL my people are free! |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3059
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 01:07 pm: |
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Chris Rock ain't got no street cred--Chris has always stressed that he is NOT street--and he wouldn't even suggest any to anybody who has ever been NEAR a real street--hanging out in Floyd's Barbershop on Main Street in Mayberry don't count.
Ain't it awful how I turn the discussion all personal and stuff? You'd think I would have reformed after hearing the Voice of Gawd. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5923
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:10 pm: |
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Blah, blah, blah. All I gotta say is that when I read this manisfesto, I just was overwhelmed with admiration for its author, so glad that there are men out there to counteract those stuck in the jungle of tangled rationales, stunted by the inertia of excuses, glad that he was putting niggas on notice, tellin em to kiss his black ass, cuz he really doesn't need em. And he doesn't. More power to him. I think I'm in love. Chris Rock led himself across the river of poverty and I think ol Harriet Tubman would say:"you done good, baby". |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3534
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:19 pm: |
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Yeah, well, here's what I think about the author:
This guy epitomizes all that’s been said by those who oppose Affirmative Action. He's EDUCATED...given an opportunity to succeed...and THIS is the best he could come up with?? His writing is undistinguished, his facts are flawed, his logic is elementary and his (political) agenda was made much too discernible to take seriously. Am I supposed to give him credit for this piece of garbage because he is black? Or should praise and opportunity be given to the one who’s willing to work the hardest? ...If John Ridley was so fed-up with underachieving blacks, he would have surrendered his scholarship to some “hillbilly,” who might have deserved it a helluva lot more than he did, apparently. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5925
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:41 pm: |
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Whose looking for you to give Ridley credit, Tonya? He doesn't need your approval or endorsement, especially since nothing you say elevates you to the rank of somebody who should be taken seriously. You offer no concrete or viable alternatives to what he says; just a lot of sloppy sentimental slogans and buzz worlds. |
Chrishayden
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Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3065
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 04:05 pm: |
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bio
Chris Rock was born February 7, 1966, in Andrews, South Carolina, to parents Julius (former truck driver) and Rose (teacher). Raised in the neighborhood of Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, New York, Chris always knew he was cut out to be a comedian, and took his talent to the New York comedy club circuit after dropping out of high school.
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3535
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 04:22 pm: |
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"He doesn't need your approval.."
Oh, but he does need your admiration since you are the only one so far that thinks this poorly written piece of garbage is so brilliant.
"...just a lot of sloppy sentimental slogans and buzz worlds."
It's better than that shit you tried to put forth. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5929
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 04:44 pm: |
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I never said Ridley needed my admiration, Tonya, cuz he doesn't. And on this board, "Enchanted" was a somebody who agreed with what he said. And you are really out of touch if you don't think he speaks for millions of other black folks who people like you want to condemn because you can't think of anything better to do. LMAO |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3536
Registered: 07-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 04:59 pm: |
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I did not say "agree." I said "brilliant." As for the shit you tried to put forth, Chris Rock is not even from the "street cred" class. ...wrong again! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5930
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 05:45 pm: |
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High school drop-out Chris Rock with his truck driver father could not be considered "bougie". And I'm sure he would certainly describe himself as having street smarts and he certainly gets down to the nitty-gritty in his routines, something you should appreciate since your solution to the black dilemma is to bitch slap those who say what you can't bear to hear. Puleeze. |
Tonya
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Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3537
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 05:54 pm: |
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Meet you on the next thread, babe. |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1505
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 06:41 pm: |
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elder cynique: you must know, or perhaps not, that you can hang out in the streets without being of the streets. Also, from what I understand, CR was raised in what is called the respectable working-class.
That is, those households wherein the the parents are working class but their deportment and accessible accoutrements are that of the bourgeosis. Thus, while they can not afford the lifestyle, they can speak standard english, dress modertately, and frame much of life through a moral lens.
Thus, CR is like myself; a person who grew up within the respectable working class but hung on in the streets...saw trouble but avoided it; close enough to the streets to be involved in some interesting situtions but conscious, fortunate, and blessed enough not get involved in any thing too problematic...notice the words--fortunate and blessed! I can not admit full responsibility for my present ok status, but will say that I have done ok but haven't always done the best that I could...but I have been blessed, I have had lots of mentoring, people pray for me all the time...and my "accomplishments" can not be said to be purely the product of my assiduity! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5931
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |
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Well, Yukio, when I said, street cred, I meant that Chris Rock was "in the know" - was comfortable with the street vibe. And chrishayden can scoff all he wants, but I could say the same about myself. I, too, come from a working-class family, and I have have never had any problem gettin down with street people. In my impetuous youth I loved to "go slummin", loved to sit at a bar that was like a desk in the school of street smarts. And believe me, in the rarified atmosphere of a hole-in-the-wall, nobody talks about black people any worst than black people talk about themselves! And time and time again what was being said was that a "nigga ain't shit", which is undoubtedly why Chris Rock incorporated the "I love black folks, but I hate niggas" litany into his stand-up routine. So when all is said and done, it's not about being underprivileged, it's about being a low-life, something that this many-faceted word can be applied to. |
Yukio
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Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1506
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 02:10 am: |
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right. but there is that knowledge that white folks can not appreciate that nuance. For they can not, in general, distinguish a socalled nigga from a socalled black American [ridley's preference].
question: what did you mean by this?
And if these "pie in the sky people" didn't command a certain amount of leverage among 25 million black people, the vocal minority who oppose people like Cosby and Williams and the author of this manisfesto wouldn't feel so threatened or wouldn't be trying so desperately to silence their voices. |
Tonya
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Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3539
Registered: 07-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 01:33 pm: |
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"And you are really out of touch if you don't think he speaks for millions of other black folks who people like you want to condemn because you can't think of anything better to do."
I think YOU are the one who is out of touch, if you think that this FOOL--who doesn't see the irony in his own statements--speaks for millions of black Americans. If that's the case, if he speaks for the people that you seem to be implying, we are in a lot more trouble than ANYONE ever thought. And, PLEASE, he CONDEMNED himself with his own words! BY HIS DEFINITION, HE’S A NIGGER!! "ASCENDED BLACK," MY ASS!! (LOL)
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5933
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 01:59 pm: |
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You are a splendid, role model, Yukio. You try to portray yourself as "lucky", but I suspect that's because you don't want to give yourself credit for the "if I can do it, you can too" cliche, since this would provide aid and comfort to your adversaries.
In answer to your question, those like John Ridley are, in effect, airing the dirty laundry of the black race and by doing so, are "sleeping with the enemy" in the minds of those who comprise the vocal minority. These protestors, in turn, feel "threatened" because their agenda depends on their being able to perennially portray underclass blacks as helpless victims, a claim that the black silent majority doesn't necessarily agree with because its members are more aligned with the mind-set of Ridley and Cosby.
BTW, Bill Cosby was in Chicago yesterday and he delivered a pep talk to a large crowd that was cheering him on. Among his impassioned pleas, was a call for black men to come forth and help rescue black boys by mentoring them. Many of those in attendence appeared to be from the ranks of the very people Cosby criticized, people who see first-hand what he laments, and apparently agree with what he said. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5934
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 02:21 pm: |
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Well, Tonya, you're back! What did you do? Go toke up so you could post a meandering rant? LMAO. Whatever. Naturally, I don't agree with anything you say. Actions speak louder than words, and the mentality of the black community at large is more in step with Ridley than with his critics. It's not about complicated social dynamics or about scoring debate points or about writing a perfect dissertation, it's about a whole lot of black folks being tired of bearing the burden of those who contribute to their own down fall. Everybody knows white racism is an integral part of a system that is stacked against minorities. So what else is new? Unfortunately, for blacks, the choices are limited. So since militancy is going nowhere, pragmatism fits the bill. Blacks have to endeavor to co-exist with their nemesis, and by moving on, they stand a better chance of moving up, especailly if they take advantage of existing opportunities. |
Tonya
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Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3542
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 04:50 pm: |
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"Naturally, I don't agree with anything you say. Actions speak louder than words, and the mentality of the black community at large is more in step with Ridley than with his critics."
You don't usually agree with me because you care nothing about LOGIC: if the black community "at large" shared mainly Mr. Ridley’s "mentality," IF THAT WERE TRUE, the majority of black college graduates would be underachievers AND most blacks would be voting Republican AND Condi’s nickname wouldn’t be Condoskeezer AND you wouldn’t be reaching for straws!
You are right about one thing though: "actions speak louder than words." So when you make you’re living as a professional writer and you’re pouncing people for their laziness and ineptitude IN WRITING you better do an exemplary job with that piece. That‘s common sense! (And when you’re a rapist preaching morals...well...that just takes the cake! LOL)...
I’m not saying that some of his (and Cosby’s) words aren’t right. I’m saying precisely what you declared: actions INDEED speak louder than words. |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1507
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 04:52 pm: |
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cynique: I had earned what I have received, but I have also been lucky. It doesn't have to be an either or, in my opinion.
Ok, I thought thats what you were saying. Yes. Part of the dilemma is, especially when it pertains to black people, these issues have to be framed in an either/or scenario.
First of all, we don't have any real power. Thus, both both sides of the fence--black conservatives and black liberals--are soliciting the favors of whites, though the are white republicans or white democracts. At the end of the day, they may belong to different parties, but they are still parties controlled by white folk.
Secondly, by going the Cosby/williams/ridley route, you provide grist for white conservatives and liberals. Since both, at this point, are actually politically the same when it comes to black people. The socalled vocal minority of which you speak doesn't exist on this question of individual responsibility...who are they people? It aint Jess or Sharpton; I don't recall either of they saying anything to or about J. Williams or B. Cosby. I only know of M.E. Dyson speaking up!
In this case, you have the black elite or black leadership who disagree on many issues, but both agree, both explicitly and some tacitly, that the black poor are derelict.
Concerning Cosby, I agree with some of his comments. I would have said it differently, and added the institutional racism component.
But also, what Cosby said is not brain surgery, it is logic, understandable, and amenable to both the provincial and the intellectual. So, I am not surprised.
But, I believe that institutional racism is underexamined, misunderstood, and generally intangible to our experience and often, to our intellect.
Consequently, since the viscera of jim crow racism is virtually gone, it is believed that racism is gone...also, since daily acts of hard work, such as studying for an exam, changing your eating habits, etc...that result in good grades, weight loss, etc...accomplishments that are ostensibly the result of assiduity, we tend to believe, with the help of Oprah and William Smith's movie [Denzel's new book and his movie Antwon Fisher], that racism is the past...that its only legacy is racial slurs.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5935
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 06:08 pm: |
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Tonya and Yukio, I'd be foolish to try and discredit the merits of what you 2 have just posted. And you know I'm jaded when I have to dredge up that ol adage about the elephant which 3 blind men argued about because they couldn't agree how it should be described since one touched its big trunk, and the other felt its rough skin and the last one grasped its little tail, - the moral of this being that: there's the truth, and then there's the whole truth. And bear with ol Cynique again while I fall back on the other time-worn axiom which assures that: "the truth will set you free". Hopefully, when black folks get it aaaaaall together, we'll one day be truly free! In the meantime, I gotta go call Animal Control to get this big-ass bull elephant out of my front room where he's fertilizing my rug. heh-heh. I'll catch y'all niggas later. A'ight? |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3543
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 06:51 am: |
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Yeah, and the whole truth involves all of those "complicated social dynamics" that you clearly stated are irrelevant, a'ight?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5943
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
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Well to me, truth and reality are one in the same, and language some times gets in the way of the truth. The complicated dynamics I referred to were theories that do not necessarily pan out in the real world, and as such are just part of the truth. |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3547
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:39 pm: |
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"Well to me, truth and reality are one in the same, and language some times gets in the way of the truth."
Language is what forms truth and reality. For without language, there’d be no war, no propaganda. There'd be no love, no hurt, no pain, no confusion, no happiness, no life. Momma bears couldn’t teach their cubbies how or why to survive...THE REAL WORLD. Birds wouldn’t learn how to fly...no caviar to wine and dine....And you wouldn’t have had enough feathers & ink to write such a stupid line. LMAO!!!! But, seriously, language is what forms reality, Cynnique. Some could even argue that it IS reality...and if they’re a better intellectual than I am, they’d make a damn good case! ....What are you saying?? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5945
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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I don't agree that language is what forms reality because words are subjective in that they mean different things to different people. Reality is what it is. It was there before language and it will be there after it. And of course this is all moot because we are using the symbols of language to try and tranmit ideas right now and are obviously not communicating very well. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5946
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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That should be "transmit" not "tranmit", and excuse me but I never heard a bear talk to her cub. She teaches by example. |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3550
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 02:35 pm: |
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"And of course this is all moot because we are using the symbols of language to try and tranmit ideas right now and are obviously not communicating very well."
We may not be communicating well but we ARE communicating. And since you KNOW that language is any form of communication, how on earth did you come with this line??
"I don't agree that language is what forms reality because words are subjective in that they mean different things to different people."
And this one??
"...excuse me but I never heard a bear talk to her cub. She teaches by example."
Again, just because two people don’t understand each other clearly do not mean that they're not communicating; because no matter how you slice it THEY ARE…even if the response is “I don’t understand” or “no speaky English,” they are communicating. And if a momma bear is TEACHING her cubbies by example--(which technically is how all animals including humans are taught)--she’s communicating....She doesn’t have to talk; she can touch, she can lick, she can punish…and so on.
Reality is....was there before language and it will be there after it.
Prove it. Take into account the emphatically undeniable, the fully undisputable FACT that language is all communication...and then support that statement. It can't be done! But...as I said...an intellectual could make a hellified case for the counter. I mean, god had to speak to SOMEBODY....E.g,..."LET there be light!" ...What/who was he talking to?? ...And what made them or it respond? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5948
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 03:23 pm: |
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Screw all of that. George Bush says what he is doing is "staying the course". His detractors say what he's doing is "being a stubborn fool". You are saying that because language exists, that it is the conveyor of the truth, I am contending that language is a tool that is at the behest of those who are utterting it and as such it confuses as much as it elucidates. Yes, it is a method of communication but it can be a weapon to misinterpret reality. That's why there's the Euro-centric version of history and the Afro-centric version of history. And have you ever heard of the expression "lost in translation"??? Also animal instinct is not language. It is sensed not spoken. The physical world has existed since time immemorial - before anyone was here to use sounds to describe what their eyes were seeing. You disprove that. The constancy of mathematics comes closest to representing purity of what is. Geometry is supposed to be the universal form of written language. But who knows? This is all abstract. And I repeat: our dialog is a proof that language does not always facilitate understanding. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5949
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 03:24 pm: |
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Also the concept of God has no place in a discussion about language. Because religion is faith not fact. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5950
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 03:55 pm: |
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I should've contended specifically that Christianity is about faith and not fact, since much of what I opine is influenced by my being intrigued with Zen Buddhism which, among other things, is about reading between the lines, about pauses and spaces, and my oft-repeated favorite: "the sound of one hand clapping". You and I are on parallel lanes of thought, Tonya, and "ne'er the twain shall meet." You seemingly believe that language is infallible, and I disagree. |
Admin
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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Wow, I first read this thread read a few days ago. I see I'm too late to add to the fray, but Iwill say Cynique I don't think I could now, or have in the past, agreed with you more.
Your posts were more profound that Ridley's piece and I enjoyed that a great deal.
If God is willing these discussion board posts will be available for a long, long time. Anyone who disagrees with what Cynique has said; I encourage you to come back in 10 years and let me know what you think then.
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3551
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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Screw all of that. George Bush says what he is doing is "staying the course". His detractors say what he's doing is "being a stubborn fool".
What’s your point?
You are saying that because language exists, that it is the conveyor of the truth…
Nope. Never said that. Never said anything that's even close.
You seemingly believe that language is infallible, and I disagree.
Cut and paste whatever made you feel that I suggested such. Thanks.
And have you ever heard of the expression "lost in translation"???
Sure have. What’s your point?
Also animal instinct is not language.
Who said it was? Not me. What's your point.
It [instinct] is sensed not spoken.
Totally agree. BTW, what’s your point?
The physical world has existed since time immemorial - before anyone was here to use sounds to describe what their eyes were seeing. You disprove that.
What am I disproving? Why am I disproving it? That’s a fact--you haven't made a point.
The constancy of mathematics comes closest to representing purity of what is. Geometry is supposed to be the universal form of written language. But who knows? This is all abstract
What’s your point?
Also the concept of God has no place in a discussion about language. Because religion is faith not fact.
And faith cant be discussed because.....???
Besides that was just an example, it wasn't a P-O-I-N-T a POINT.
And I repeat: our dialog is a proof that language does not always facilitate understanding.
How ‘bout you do this, cut and paste any parts of our discussion that you don’t understand. And while you’re at it, can you do as I asked and support your statements, only this time please include some points. Thanks. And don’t worry about me, I understand you CLEARLY. Plus I am confident and prepared to stand by every single thing that I've said therefore I feel no need to cause any diversions. I’m just waiting for you to provide some kind of counterpoints. Thanks. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5954
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 12:31 am: |
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I don't need to cut and paste to tell you what I already said: "You and I are on parallel lanes and never the twain shall meet. What's your point????? |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3552
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 01:54 am: |
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True that. True that. But anyhoo, what's my point for what??? |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3553
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 01:57 am: |
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...and what's your point for asking me my point???? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5958
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 03:36 am: |
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If, as you claim, you understand clearly what I have said, then why do I have to explain my points to you, Tonya? It should be very obvious that what I was illustrating was that people couch reality in different language either because they see things differently or because they have ulterior motives. And to quote God is rather absurd because this amounts to putting words in an invisible mouth in order to create religion which is more about faith than fact. I have used language to express my feelings and because your feelings are different from mine, you reject what I say because you prefer to use your own language to interpret reality which is why language transcends reality because it is so subjective. If we were expert mathmaticians, however, we would come up with the same answer to a postulation. And so it goes. If you don't accept that, then it ain't my problem. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3554
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 03:51 pm: |
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First of all, my reference to god was meant to be absurd because it was a JOKE. Not a very good one I see, but it was a joke nonetheless. As for my motives, I regret that you think that they were shady, because the truth is they were very sincere in the beginning:
You made what seemed to be an interesting point in your initial 08, 2006 post. But it was preceded by this statement.
"Well to me, truth and reality are one in the same, and language some times gets in the way of the truth."
Which is a very philosophical statement; there's no other way to look at it, IMO. And so in order to get to the part that I found interesting, I had to question the philosophy of that statement. It was impossible (for me anyway) to interpret the rest, otherwise. However, when I questioned your philosophy, you suggested an answer that didn't match the tone of that statement. You indicated that by "language" you meant only the written and spoken words coming from humans. Which was okay, but it was completely technical and I found that rather odd. I mean, you started out awfully philosophical, that is one end of the spectrum, and then you turned around and gave a technical answer...that is the opposite extreme (???). So, as I said, I thought it was odd and my response was given under that assessment. I thought YOU were being shady, actually; and so I wasn’t taking you seriously. Sorry. Now that we’ve put that aside, I still would like to clarify a few things, because, honestly, I want to interpret what you meant in that second sentence; it was clear, I understood every word; but the statement preceding it indicated that you wanted to convey some special meaning and I‘m just curious as to what that meaning was. For example, you also said: "truth and reality are one in the same." Were you being realistic, as opposed to philosophical, with that too? Do you really think truth and reality are the same? And if the phrase is to remain philosophical, is everything within the realm of reality truth to you? Or is reality only that which is true/the truth? And finally, is there no truth without reality and vice versa? Thanks. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5966
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Well, I hate to tell you that I don't really care if you are "confused" by what I have said, Tonya, or do I feel that I have to justify my opinion that language is fluid when it comes to the truth. Like me, you can approach reality any way you want to. I am not trying to convert you and because our definitions are not in sync, we remain at an impasse because yes, reality and truth are, to me, interchangable because I think truth is an overview that encompasses how something really is, independent of how language imprisons it. This is an abstract assessment and can't be proven, just adopted as a way of thought. And over time I embraced this way of thinking while observing how fickle words are. Maybe that's why eye-witness accounts of something are considered very unreliable. If you find what I say is foreign, then you have learned your first lesson in the ambiguity of language. LMAO. |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3555
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 07:14 pm: |
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Actually, Cynnique, why don’t you consider THIS a lesson…. You have no respect for those complicated social dynamics because you have absolutely no idea how truth and reality are formed. And that's a shame. Because you're a talented writer. You have the ability to form somebody's truth and reality. |
Igbogirl
Veteran Poster
Username: Igbogirl
Post Number: 514
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:01 pm: |
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<instead>
Actually fast food is really cheap. Cheaper than good homecooked food. You should have taken the time to eat more fast food. Then you'd be that much more "financially stable" today.
PS: What kind of boring azzhole goes to the library as "entertainment"? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5967
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 11:32 pm: |
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I wouldn't expect you to say anything other than what you did, Tonya, because your mind can't conceive of what it can't understand. Why is it that you haven't enlightened me as to what truth and reality Are??? Because you can't. You can't even figure out that you and I are not talking about the same concept. And you have yet to refute my contention that language corrupts the purity of truth. So give it up. There is no common ground here. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5969
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 12:02 am: |
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Igabooboo, what you just posted is the most intelligent thing you've ever contributed to this board. It really puts this circuitous discussion between me and Tonya in perspective. LOL. |
Troy
Regular Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 470
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 07:43 pm: |
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Here is an Article by Kam on the subject:
The Negro-Cons’ Deal with the Devil: Honorary White Status in Return for Abandoning Fellow Blacks
by Lloyd Williams
http://aalbc.com/reviews/thenegro-cons.htm
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5981
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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Phooey on somebody like Lloyd Willams who paints anybody who doesn't adhere to the victimization script as being a mean-spirited Uncle Tom mouthpiece for Conservatives. This accusation conveniently relieves people like Williams of the task of trying to disprove what is being said. Driven by his desperation, Williams resorts to character assassination while criticizing a style of writing, desperately hoping to obscure the substance of its content even as he, himself, dissolves into blubbering maudlin prose on order to cop his plea. Black people need to have a special election and vote in the leaders whose platform is the most alined with how they feel; majority rules. I'd be willing to bet that those who are being tainted with the conservative lable would be the winners. I don't like Condoleeza Rice or Armstrong Williams or Clarence Thomas or the evangelical Christians or the Fascistic political right or - white cops! If people want to try and force the round peg of my independence into the square peg of conservatism, then let them try. The periodic recyling of the same old bellyaching about white racism ain't workin. Accusing the system of being racist, and then expecting it to respond to black demands just shows why the struggle in mired in the inertia of hollow rhetoric. It took balls for John Ridley to write what he did, knowing the backlash he would get. It took nothing but a limp dick for Lloyd Williams to put his impotence into words.
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 3562
Registered: 07-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 07:41 am: |
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Try’na dig your way out of truth and reality. Tsk-Tsk.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5991
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 09:27 am: |
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LMAO. Still don't get it, do you, numb skull? It's true that Williams wrote the article, but he used his subjective langage to distort reality. |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1509
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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Cynique: Kam's article is more derivative than analytical. It does rely on ad hominems[sp]..., but to be honest, how is this different from Ridley's? He loads, as Kam's article does explain, so much racism in the n-word that he proves little himself—but that he is a solid writer with a competent vocabulary with an opinion. Cynique, in your response to me, you ignored MLK's quote, and focused on Ridley's description of poor blacks...what you called a "crisis" in black neighborhoods. In MLK's "laments," as you described, one can get a glimpse of his views about this “crisis.” Because the black community has always been in this crisis, especially in the inner cities in the late 60s and early 70s. MLK’s comments were prescient in that like then, we are now involved in a war and an economy that is especially hateful towards poor black people. His comments come from his involvement in the economic issues affecting black people and how “rights” do not address this economic component. In fact, as we know or at least should, he was quite unsuccessful with his “Poor People’s” Campaign. And as a political bloc we have continued to be unsuccessful at addressing these issues. Cynique, how can YOU even validate Ridley’s comments or talk about disproving what he states if his MOST essential claim is based on a fallacy? That claim, what he calls the deal, must be true if we are to begin to believe in Ridley’s “laments.” |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1510
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:18 am: |
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oh, and who better understood this "deal" than the engineer himself, MLK? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5992
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 11:51 am: |
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Well, Yukio, these 2 articles represent points of view, and they both contain half-truths. The black dilemma is a passionate issue which spawns inflammatory disagreements and the quarrel I have with people like Williams is that they want to repress dissent, implying that it's "my way or the highway" and even worse, bleeding hearts like him try to strengthen their case by stigmatizing the middle-class, ignoring the folly of decrying the plight of poor people while ridiculing those who have escaped poverty. Furthermore, the poor are not monolithic and you can't generalize about them. They are poor for different reasons, some of which Ridley named. As for Martin Luther King, he remains a sancrosanct icon but at the time of his assassination, his power and influence were waning and he knew that the way to shore up his political base was to embrace the poor because the poor would always be with us and they always needed spokesmen to crusade for them. Yes what he said was obviously as true then as it is now and the reality is that very little has changed, all of which illustrates the futility of trying to eliminate black poverty in white capitalistiic America. Analysing and dissecting it is not enough because the logistics of implementing rhetoric and theory are insurmontable. How does the minority overhaul the racist system they so deplore? To me, it all boils down to the individual, to the survival of the fittest or the luck of the draw because there are too many people who have escaped poverty. The hapless, for whatever reason they are hapless, will remain relegated to the bottom of the economic totem poll. And people like Williams and Ridley will keep getting in each others faces, representing typical examples of the mind-sets that divide 25 million black souls. C'est La Vie. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5997
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 02:28 pm: |
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You know, Yukio, this post meandered off in so many directions getting bogged down with the discussion about truth and reality, and the pros and cons of the word nigger and the cause and effect of poverty that it took on a life of its own, one independent of Ridley's article. I initially reacted to criticism of Ridley on a matter of principle because although I think his approach is radical, it stemmed from frustration and, right or wrong, his intent is legitimate because its goal is to uplift the black race. I think Williams' rebuttal to this article was more about anger than reason. Let's face it; black folks don't all think alike and don't all see things the same way. In the big picture, who is to say who's right and who's wrong? It all relative. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6016
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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As a post script to this thread, I have a confession to make,Yukio. I did not know that Lloyd Williams was "Kam". I kept looking for Kam's review but all I saw was Thumper's favorable review of Ridley's book. Finally, out of a clear blue sky it dawned on me who Lloyd Williams must be!! Hellooo. And guess what? Finding that out kinda changed my perspective because I like and respect Kam. But I still think a lot of what he wrote amounted to blowing off steam and was more of a rant than a review. And I know what must be going through your mind, Yukio, as you shake your head. But just remember. I'm your "elder." LOL. |
Kam
Newbie Poster
Username: Kam
Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Hi Cynique,
Long time no post. I'm so prolific I write under several names. I also use aliases, because in the past I have been fired from some publications by my supposedly radical politics. Hope you enjoy my Top Ten Black Books of 2006 list a little more. It ought to be posted here soon.
Kam |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6251
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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Hey, Kam. Season's Greetings to you. Yes, I checked out your lists and since I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read any of the books you selected, I can't really comment except to say that considering your politics I wasn't surprised to note a couple of those you chose for the 5 worst books. I had to wonder about your choices because surely there were worst books than those you listed that were written in the year 2006, but - like I said, I took into consideration the radical stance which always seems to unduly infuse itself into your critiques. LOL. Write on! |
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