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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 274
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 04:26 pm: | 
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This, of course, is not the same topic but something Abm said on the MTV thread made this article stand out (plus I found much of it rather interesting).
Abm said:
"Eventhough MTV/VH1's audiences are vastly Caucasian, their management would be a lot LESS inclined to air such programming if enuff Black foks openly and vociferously resented and rejected it. Moreover, much of young White kids consider to be 'kewl' these days are what BLACK kids consider 'kewl'. If we weren't enjoying Snoop and Flava Flav cooning, fewer of them would as well."
________
Get Out of My Closet
Can you be white and "on the Down Low?"
By Benoit Denizet-Lewis
Posted Friday, Aug. 11, 2006, at 3:29 PM ET
Three years ago, I wrote a story about black men who have sex with men but don't identify as gay—or even, in many cases, as bisexual. Instead, they adopted the label Down Low and formed a vibrant but secretive subculture of DL parties, DL Internet chat rooms (Thugs4Thugs, DLBrothas), and DL sex cruising areas (parks, bathhouses). Some of the Down Low guys I met were married but had covert sex with men, while others who claimed the label only had sex with men but considered themselves much too masculine to be gay. Most equated gayness with effeminacy—and, to a lesser extent, whiteness. From their perspective, to be an effeminate black man (a "punk," a "faggot") is to not really be a black man at all.
The Down Low was a relatively new response to a very old behavior. Men of all races have long had secret sexual and romantic male relationships, complete with the usual accessories of a double life: lies, deception, and shame. But the Down Low was a uniquely African-American creation. If the closet is a stifling, lonely place for white guys who realize they're gay but aren't ready to admit it publicly, the Down Low is a VIP party for "masculine" black men who will never admit to being homosexual—because they don't see themselves that way. And while men on the DL certainly have their share of shame, among themselves it masquerades as bravado and sexual freedom: They're the ultimate pimps and players, man enough to do their girlfriend on Thursday and do their best friend, Mike, on Friday. And until 2003, most black women didn't have a clue.
But then I wrote my story, J.L. King published his memoir (On the Down Low), Oprah turned King's book into a best seller, and Law & Order devoted an episode to the subculture. The Down Low quickly ceased to be, well, on the down low. And now, in a sure sign of the DL's cultural currency, white boys—apparently unsatisfied with having co-opted hip-hop—are claiming to be on the "Down Low," too.
I knew nothing of this until two months ago, when I met my first white guy who claimed to be "on the DL." He was 24, tall, masculine, attractive, and said "bro" a lot. I met him at a New York City gay club (he had made the trek from Long Island), and I'm embarrassed to say that we sort of hit it off. On the first of a few dates, I asked him where he worked—and whether people there knew he was gay.
"Bro," he said, "I'm on the Down Low."
"Dude," I said, "You're white. You can't be on the Down Low!"
"Bro," he said. "All kinds of white people are saying they're on the Down Low now."
"That's ridiculous," I protested. "Why don't you just say you're in the closet?"
"Because the closet sounds stupid," he said.
I wasn't sure I believed him, so a few days later I went searching on Craigslist, and, sure enough, I found dozens of ads from white men claiming to be on the Down Low. In Boston, where I live, I saw an ad for a 38-year-old "slightly stocky, hairy and kinky bi married white guy on the down low." In New York City, a 29-year-old Italian looking to "take care of a nice guy" who is "kool and looking for some fun" wrote that he needed someone discreet because he's on the Down Low. In the San Francisco Bay Area, a 25-year-old "white boy on the down low" posted that he was looking to "chill with the same."
(Interestingly, white guys also use the expression as an adjective—as in, "I have a down-low place" to hook up, or "I need Down-Low Head." By far the most common usage, though, is some variation of, "We need to keep this on the Down Low," meaning that if you happen to bump into your hookup around town, you won't bear hug him and shriek, "Bro, last night was awesome!")
Keith Boykin, the author of Beyond the Down Low: Sex, Lies, and Denial in Black America, told me he isn't surprised that white men are co-opting the expression. "It's become trendy to be on the DL," he says. "It has always had an appeal because it refers less to sexuality than it does to masculinity. It's an alluring term for men who identify as butch or masculine. The closet has a certain shame and weakness attached to it. The Down Low sounds more powerful, more empowering. It also sounds like a secret group, or club."
Maybe so, but white guys claiming to be on the DL is a little like two straight roommates pretending to be domestic partners so they can save on health insurance. While white guys want the perceived benefits of being on the Down Low (being seen as cool, tough, and masculine), they certainly don't want the unenviable choices facing many black men attracted to other men. For all their supposed freedom and masculine power and independence, black men on Down Low are stuck: "Come out" as anything other than heterosexual and suddenly they're a double minority, likely to be ostracized by their friends, family, and church. (Black men still have less economic mobility than whites, making their community connections all the more critical.) Don't come out and live a secretive, dishonest, compartmentalized—but, in some ways, safer—life on the DL.
''We know there are black gay rappers, black gay athletes, but they're all on the DL,'' Rakeem, a black gay man from Atlanta, told me three years ago when I interviewed him for my Down Low story. "If you're white, you can come out as an openly gay skier or actor or whatever. It might hurt you some, but it's not like if you're black and gay, because then it's like you've let down the whole black community, black women, black history, black pride."
I called Rakeem recently to ask him what he thought about white guys claiming to be on the Down Low. "Are you really asking to me to explain the behavior of white dudes?" he said, laughing. "I'm not even going to try." Next I called Jimmy Hester, a white former music executive and an expert on the Down Low. "What haven't white people stolen from black culture?" he said. "But seriously, it's incredibly sad that there are still millions of men of every color living in the closet, or on the Down Low, or whatever they want to call it. I say, let's retire the Down Low. It should be extinct, like a dinosaur. It's 2006, and people need to free themselves."
http://www.slate.com/id/2147491/
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5928
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 04:56 pm: |
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Of course there are MYRIAD supposed straight White men shagging other White men. And they probably are not less inclined to engage in such as Black (Hispanic or Asian) men (though the exorbinant incarceration amongst Black men probably fosters a higher degree of homosexuality amongst Black men than might otherwise exist). |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2891
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 05:47 pm: |
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ABM,
Removing "Prison" figures...
The "downlow" amongst black men does not exist.
This is a new stereotype that has been created and perpetuated by the media to frighten white women into not sleeping with black men, because supposedly they'd be at higher risk for AIDS.
The AIDS epidemic amongst black women is from STRAIGHT BM and their "I Got 10 Bitches" hip hop behavior----STRAIGHT BM are fucking a lot more women/more often than other groups of men, because it's a MEDAL OF HONOR to be promiscuous for Black Straight Men.
The same amount of "bisexual" sex is taking place among all other groups...as it is among black men.
And if anything...there's a downlow explosion among BLACK WOMEN.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5935
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 06:05 pm: |
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Kola,
I'm not sure I concur that there's NO Down Low issue amongst Black men. But I am inclined to agree that A) It's grossly overblown and B) It is not as much a contributor to the spread of HIV to woman as often cited.
Now whether Black women are getting AIDS more from "I Got 10 Bitches" than from dudes on the DL, I really can't say. Because part of me think theres a fair amount of OVERLAP amongst that 2 factions of Black men.
And I UTTERLY concur that there is A LOT of intracQQchie consuming going down amongst Black women on the QT. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 762
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 07:15 pm: |
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Would any woman here date a man who was openly bisexual?
For some reason I view bisexual men as just "gay"...and its a huge turn off.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2904
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 07:22 pm: |
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I feel the same Brownbeauty123.
I would not date a man who I knew was bisexual.
There were two times in my life, where I stopped being "flirty" with a man because I discovered he was bisexual.
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 08:33 pm: |
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There was a story about this in the NYTimes a while back. I think you need an on-line reg to view, but there is a discussion nabout the issue here: http://blogher.org/node/8882 In the comment section is a letter from a woman who apparently has decided to remain with her husband.
I've heard this type of thing called "MOM": Mixed Orientation Marriages... |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 765
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 08:51 pm: |
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I have a hard time viewing bisexual men as just that. I don't believe in such. |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 474
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:36 pm: |
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WHAT A STUPID QUESTION!!!! White men INVENTED down-low! Please, negroes--are you guys actually that dense?
Any of you people here know what a glory-hole is?
Have you been in a run-down x-rated movie theatre in a town which has a substantial white population?
Give me a fucking break. |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 475
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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And another thing--Kola is dead-on about this "down-low" crap. It's media hype, to make all black guys look as if they are "fags"--the better to socially ostracise them. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5938
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 08:55 am: |
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Ladies,
I wonder were there no AIDS issues, would more of you be inclined to go Yvettep's MOM route with some sexually ambiguous men than would likely care to openly acknowledge. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2556
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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Rock Hudson
Liberace
Randolph Scott
Cary Grant
J. Edgar Hoover
Malcolm Forbes
Jim Bakker
Abraham Lincoln
Big Bill Tilden
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 489
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 11:36 am: |
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....and Tom Cruise,
John Travolta,
Julius Caesar,
George Takei(Japanese)
possibly Ernest Hemingway
Half of the World Wrestling Federation
James Buchanan
Carl Van Vechten
Arthur Rimbaud
Paul Verlaine
Yukio Mishima(Japanese)
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2922
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:40 pm: |
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Osama Bin Laden |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2923
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:40 pm: |
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Montgomery Clift |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4906
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 02:33 pm: |
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Tyrone Power, Cole Porter, Laurence Olivier, James Dean, Richard Chamberlain. BTW, I, too, am taken aback by the idea that the down-low lifestyle is of recent vintage and is limited to black males. Hollywood, in particular, was a hot bed for these types of liaisans dating back to the 1920s. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1328
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 03:43 pm: |
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A man can be any color and be on the DL --people just get caught up in "who" coined the term. Those down-low cats are all into the same shyt (excuse the pun) anyway!
YUCK! |
Savant
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 122
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 04:31 pm: |
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Langston Hughes, Countee Cullen, Alain Locke, Marlon Brando... |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 07:03 pm: |
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"Any of you people here know what a glory-hole is?
Have you been in a run-down x-rated movie theatre in a town which has a substantial white population?"
ummmm, no.
I was under the impression that Langston Hughes was gay, and not bi-sexual. Tell me if I'm wrong.
From what I heard about Marlon Brandon, he only liked "exotic" women. Again, I could be wrong. |
Savant
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 127
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 07:23 pm: |
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Langston Hughes might have been gay rather than bisexual. If so, my error.
Brando openly admitted that he'd had sexual encounters with men. There's also that fairly notorious photo of him posing with his mouth on a black man's penis. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 07:33 pm: |
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wooo....didn't know that....... |
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