| Author | Message | ||
     Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5795 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Below is a segment of an article I read this weekend. "My graduate-school encounters with that ex-fiancé as well as with other men made it clear that nerd-dom is more problematic for black women than for black men. We admire those college-educated, professional black men who don their suits and march off to the workplace because we stereotypically imagine them married to women who are less intelligent or at least less well educated than they are. We consider women with comparable educational or professional training to be ball-busting types whose educations and professions frequently exclude them from romantic relationships and marriage. The opinion that I am too educated for most men, that I have "priced myself out of the market," so to speak, is a sentiment that has occasionally surfaced around the edges of my family. Few black men, it seems, are comfortable with the idea that their wives or partners make more money than they do. While they can admire their sisters and other female relatives being so endowed with good fortune, they would rather it not reside in their own homes." You agree with what's been asserted here? That booksmart Black men are more accepted amongst Blacks than booksmart Black women? I'm not sure that I do. It's been my observation and experience that the degree of ambivalence amongst Blacks for intellectualism is evenly distibuted to scholarly Black men and women. And I appreciate the unique struggles many well-educated and affluent Black women have with dating. But we ALL are born and bred into a patriarcial society, one where the man is expected to provide and lead. Thus, I wager many of these uppity Black women are just as inclined to desire the dominant male and, thus, mostly lament their not being able to find men whom they'd deem worthy of such. The author has some other interesting commentary that might be of interest pertaining to the travails of being an educated Black woman. I think some of it, though, suggests that, perhaps, she's help to author her own alienation. But you are free to be your own judge: http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i31/31b01401.htm | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1462 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I agree with the article and you. It is a double edged sword. I know personally several women who have endured problematic relationships because of insecure men. I too know that many of these women do desire the "dominant" male. And thus those poor slackers [like myself] who make under six figures but are intelligent and assiduous do not meet their economic standards....what cha gonna do? | ||
| Satina Newbie Poster Username: Satina Post Number: 22 Registered: 05-2006 Rating: N/A |
I do agree. Black women are very loyal to black men. However, when the situation is reversed it seems as though 7 times out of 10 the successful black man (when faced with the same predicament) chooses to go the other way. And honestly, it doesn’t take much for them to point the finger and jump ship. From what I've noticed, more and more professional women are shacked up with thugs. A. Because it's the in thing thanks to songs like "Soldier" from our hip hop elite and B. because the pickings are slim for compatable men any. Yet still, when faced with hardships black women still go the distance with black men numerically, whereas black men kick black women to the curb for the most minor of offenses and play the blame game. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5796 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I agree one's stance here can greatly vary based on the principals and the situation. How many women want to feel as though she has to intellectually, socially and economically tolerate a man? And how many men want to feel as though their being intellectually, socially and economically tolerated by a woman? And how many of us really COULD tolerate a intimate relationship that's WHOLLY equitable amongst the sexes? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5797 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Satina, Honestly. I think the time that MANY women could have been and should have been 'loyal' to Black men were when you were KIDS...when you were forgoing the smart, geeky boys for the cuter, kewler ones. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1463 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM: Right! I dont want to be tolerated. I want to be unconditionally accepted and embraced, though we may disagree on certain matters. I too will do the same. I am not married, however. So perhaps my vision of what will be is too romantic. And I haven't been in such a serious relationship that these issues have posed problems for me...when I have met such issues, the relationship did not get to the point where it became a serious problem. Equitable...there is not such thing! LOL! I have recently has an issue arise. Tell me what you think! I am uncomforable about raising my voice with women. At the same time, I am quick to remind a brotha of his place! A female friend of mine is very verbally aggressive and imtensionally slightly offensive [now, aggressive is aggressive]. When she is with me I will go but so far with my retort because she is a woman, good friend, and I don't want to hurt her feelings....BUt it does bother me! If she was a man...it would be on like popcorn and I wouldn't hold back... This is a case where it is certainly not equitable and I am clearly responding to gender conventions...I am treating her like a woman, but sometimes I feel weakened because I do not feel right taking her shit. I would like to respond with the same aggression that I would with a man, but something in me wouldn't let me! Thus, while we are platonic friends, the gender or sex of the individuals still plays a role. This then, presents a "WHOLLY equitable" relationship even between platonic friends. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 1232 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
when you were forgoing the smart, geeky boys for the cuter, kewler ones Except for a couple of brief times when I ran with a couple of guys from "the wrong side of the tracks," this does not apply to me. I have always dated what most would consider "geeks." (I do not mean this as an insult--I am a geek myself.) I think my husband is very very cool, but he definitely has qualities that most would describe as "geeky." If I had to guess, I'd say that on the extreme end of geekiness, Black men and Black women are likely equally marginalized. But for your garden variety geeks, Black men definitely have more options, romantically speaking, than it appears Black women do in my opinion. I do not think wanting an intellectual equal means, for many of these women, wanting someone who makes "six figures"--In fact "geekiness" does not necessarily equate to high incomes. In fact, it can mean long years of schooling (and student loans) when your peers are out making money, low paying post-docs, and (relatively) low paying academic jobs. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5799 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I'd flatly tell her something to the effect of "You know. In deference to your being a woman, I'm cutting you some slack. But if you keep up the b*tchy attitude, I'm gone let your a$$ HAVE IT." And if THAT don't work and she acts up again, BLAST HER A$$. That's what I would. But, hey. You gottah be YOU. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 4883 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I am amazed at your restraint in dealing with the woman you describe, Yukio. Does it occur to you that she might be testing you and that if you didn't back off but, instead, told her off, that she might be impressed by your stepping up to assert yourself? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5800 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, I agree booksmart don't always equate to affluence. But such complement each other enuff to warrant being combined in discussion. Now. Maybe it depends on where you're from and how you were raised. If you are from a family and community that prizes scholastic achievement, you likely will appreciate and be appreciated as a geek. But if you're from MOST Black communities, your being booksmart can incite as much suspicion as appreciation. And as the disparity between the college graduation rate of Black woman and that of Black men exists and grows, your extra-studious sista will have trouble getting dates, at least from those whose backgrounds are congruent with that of their own. I grew up a bit of a anomoly in that I was both a good student and had a fairly active social life. So my being considered 'the smart one' was pretty well-received by others. I think if Black foks feel you don't think or behave as though having a Ph.d confers upon you some kinda of 'divinity' or something, you'll be fine. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5801 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique, That's an interesting possibility. Ironically, women will often compel men be more aggressive - even hostile - towards them than the men are inclined to be. But then women often shiek, howl and cry foul when the men oblige them. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1467 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique: I'm not interested in her; and as far as I know, she is not in me. I don't think she would be impressed, but this too wouldn't matter. I seek no approval from her. Also, I have been told that I can be a bit venomous, insensitive, and undiplomatic [word?]; in the past, I called it honesty, while others added the adverb "brutally" to the equation. Consequently, I have been, for years now, learning how to hold my tongue. It is nothing nice. I have this monotonous, measured way of saying wicked comments that are often my first thoughts, so now I try to think these through...lol! Writing, in fact, helps me because I have to read over my points! There have been many of times when I've wanted to say many, many things here, but I immediately deleted such. This is why, for example, much of what I say is generally impersonal and distant! But for me, it is an exercise in patience, etc.... | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 4889 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I admire you for being able to control your "acid" tongue, Yukio, but you did say that the situation was creating a problem because this woman was making you feel weak for repressing your desire to tell her off. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1468 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Not exactly. It wasn't the woman, it was my failure to respond to her as I would a man. So, as I understand it, it has more to do with the alleged conventional behavior that a man is suppose to apply to a woman. I had felt weak. I don't anymore. It is more interesting than anything else now that I have thought about it! My point was that this feeling was the result of the inability, as I see it, for relationships between men and women, let alone folk of the same sex, to be wholly equitable. If it was "wholly equitable" then I would have treated her without regard of her sex...and interestingly, if things were wholly equitable, she would not respect me for me a man...per se...but for being honest, what I presume is a less gendered term. Maybe...? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 4893 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Never underestimate the honesty factor in an interaction. And sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it....maybe. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1471 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
cynique...you are certainly right...it is how you say it... | ||
| Mzuri "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mzuri Post Number: 1302 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Yukio - Get a new friend. You shouldn't have to tolerate being made to feel uncomfortable and you shouldn't have to tiptoe around a friend. That's what I think about it. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1473 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
mzuri: Thank you. I agree. And I'm sure she and I will have a talk one day about this. But for now, all is well. And more importantly, I was using my little anecdote to make a point [this is the problem with anecdotes. Sometimes we forget their point and focus on the sentimentality; though, I will admit to being overly cerebral...LOL]. That is, generally gender conventions often intervene to prevent some sort of equitable relationship. Just because women have challenged traditional gender conventions, it does not mean that they will not themselves reinforce and even demand that the validity of those traditional conventions be maintained [This I believe is ABM's sage point]. Similarly, and this is my case and point, just because I try not to accept tradition gender conventions [that is, rejecting the need to tip toe around the females's alleged vulnerable disposition], does not mean that I will not sometimes do so, even to my chagrin. It is the conflict between tradition and social change... | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5828 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio: "...gender conventions often intervene to prevent some sort of equitable relationship. Just because women have challenged traditional gender conventions, it does not mean that they will not themselves reinforce and even demand that the validity of those traditional conventions be maintained [This I believe is ABM's sage point]." Indeed. That's why I previously suggested you give her a chance to help you establish how things are going to go down between you henceforth. That way, if she'd rather you treat her as a gentleman tradionally treats a woman you can accomodate her provided she behaves a traditional lady. If, however, she's not interested in being treated like a lady, you can either treat her as you would any misbehaving man or entirely leave her hostile a$$ alone. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1480 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM: tru, tru! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5906 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I tend to not have the kind of problem with women you describe. Because even though I'm generally respectful of and cordial towards women, any chick who's spent any material amount of time in my presense know that 'Homey don't PLAY that.' The only chicks who get to punk me are my wife, daughters and my mother. And even THEY know they have but SO FAR to go. |
