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Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 734
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 11:57 pm: | 
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I've heard many black men say that "certain" Black women look good with an afro or their non chemically relaxed hair. And usually, there are a select few IF any at all they feel can "pull" this look off. A black guy i spoke with don't view this as self hatred at all, just a "preference". |
Grind
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Grind
Post Number: 78
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 12:22 am: |
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I LOVE afros on black women. I don't run into too many black men OR women who feel the same way. |
Juelz
Newbie Poster
Username: Juelz
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 12:29 am: |
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I would consider that a preferance, I don't care as long as it is neat and clean. |
Da_hitman
Newbie Poster
Username: Da_hitman
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 12:34 am: |
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That shit is too damn manly....I wanna real woman not some damn thing looking like a damn man |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5755
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 12:47 am: |
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BB123,
Black foks - male and female - are 'trained' to expect women to have straightened hair. So if a woman doesn't straighten their hair, many Blacks - male and female - will NOT like it.
They'll SAY it a 'preference' thing. But it TRULY is a form of trained self-hatred. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2751
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 12:59 am: |
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ABM!!!!!!
I need your help on the other thread RIGHT AWAY.
Please come. I'm going to die if you don't help me.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2752
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 01:00 am: |
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Here's the thread:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/179/14371.html?1154926673 |
Robynmarie
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 92
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 01:29 am: |
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Funny the subject of hair should come up.
I wrote an essay about black women's hair and exercising. It's called "'Do or Die?"
I would love suggestions on a better title.
*******
Hair and being fit may seem unrelated to those outside the black community but sisters know only too well how to avoid “messin’ up our do's.” Despite the fact that seven of ten African American women are considered overweight or obese, African American women lead in weight-related diseases like hypertension, stroke and cancer, and African American women die sooner than white women, some women simply will not exercise on a regular basis because they desire, "manageable," straight hair.
Touch-ups, nappy roots, and “kitchens” are facts of life of black hair. The texture of our hair that “goes back” or reverts to its nature state with sweat or moisture means making regular visits to the hairdresser. And these appointments are as important as putting gas in our cars. Because of the designs we like and our other unique hair care needs, keeping it straight can be a lot more complicated not to mention a lot more expensive than simply applying over the counter hair goods.
One coed lamented, “I can’t afford to sweat out a press every week, and I don’t have the time to get it done on the regular.” At forty dollars a pop, a weekly press and curl to straighten hair can be expensive. For middle-class working black women who like wearing their hair straightened, it is a question of time more than money, how to sandwich lengthy, frequent hair appointments in between jobs and family obligations. Or, depending on where we live, sometimes it’s difficult to find a quality hairdresser we can trust with our tresses. For these and other reasons, many women forgo regular exercise to keep their hair looking good.
One sister took extreme measures. “I had to cut mine all off,” says Loni, an African American college administrator who sports a close-cropped ‘fro and is committed to being physically fit by jogging and playing golf. Loni resides in a predominately white neighborhood and says not only are black hair care products not available within close range of her home, but the nearest black hairdresser is also a distance from where she lives. To save time and aggravation, Loni has given up wearing her hair straight through presses and perms and keeps her hair naturally short.
African American women are taught from early in life that hair is not only her "crowing glory," but also her validation in a world obsessed with the outer self. Around the time we outgrow hopscotch and Double Dutch we also want to get rid of girlish plaits and barrettes and desire more grownup (straight) hairstyles. Since back when we discovered chitlins, the length and texture of black hair has been a source of classism, political identity, and mainstream acceptance. As slaves, black women covered their hair with "do rags" or cut it off or wore plaits while working the fields. However, when a white slave-owner fathered a child by a black woman, that newborn’s hair often was more straight than nappy. Thus, Caucasian type hair gradually came to be considered "good" hair (like white) while tresses that were naturally tightly curled or "nappy" were labeled "bad.”
Unfortunately this kind of thinking still exists in the black community, influenced not only intraracial prejudices but also by the Eurocentric mass media that equates beauty with looking white. As a result, many black women press, perm, or weave their hair straight in order to be considered attractive and conventional.
Black women who work out regularly tend to opt for natural styles, braids, wigs, twists, and dreadlocks--which are perfectly fine if you own your own business or work in education or the arts or other professions that require less conformity.
However, in corporate America, those who fit into the company culture are considered valuable employees. Black women working in a conservative environment are less inclined to want to risk rocking the boat by wearing their hair naturally, which might be considered too “Afro centric” for a company’s image. Blending in without drawing attention to your hair--no matter how qualified you are--could mean a promotion or a raise in pay. Even today, cornrows and French braids raise eyebrows in some quarters and are called unprofessional.
With seven in ten black women considered overweight or obese, this crisis begs the question: does a black woman have to choose between being in shape and looking beautiful? Faced with the current obesity predicament, isn’t it time we viewed things through a different lens, adopting a new vision of beauty for African Americans and all women that relies less on superficiality and more on physical and emotional well-being? Being healthy--whether thin or full-figured, nappy or straight--means loving and accepting who you are, while reaching for improvement and happily resisting an arbitrary standard of beauty imposed on us by others.
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 553
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 03:53 am: |
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"They'll SAY it a 'preference' thing. But it TRULY is a form of trained self-hatred."
Naw. I don't agree with that. Why does it have to be self-hatred? That's such a tired and boring cliché to bolster a weak argument. I believe it is a preference and does not necessarily prove or reflect trained self-hatred. I hear this term used quite loosely and I have always wondered what irrefutable proof do the accusers have to support the claim that someone hates themselves? How could you prove something like that? And why would someone hate themselves because of a hair style? You may not agree with black women straightening their hair and I really don’t have a problem with that. What I object to is the silly name calling and the self anointed role as a certified psychiatrist or clinical psychologist specializing in personality disorders. Just because you disagree with someone politically that in no way means they hate themselves. What kind of argument is that? Does Star Parker, Alan Keyes or Kenneth Blackwell hate themselves because they are black Republicans? How would I or anyone else know that? Because I don’t agree with them? I do know that I don’t share their political views and to be honest, I do find them to be somewhat annoying. But again, what proof do I or you have that they “hate themselves” simply because we don’t agree with their politics?
I personally don’t have a preference as long as the hair is groomed and well kept. I’ve seen black women with perms that I thought looked very good. And I also like black women with natty sister locks and dreads. It’s their natural hair. I’m not into weaves and wigs. I personally have no use for it. But that is my opinion based on my personal taste. I don’t care if a black woman sports a perm, Afro or dreads. AS LONG AS IT IS HER NATURAL HAIR. AND AGAIN –IT’S MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE! I don’t put people down and call them names if they choose other wise. May not be my choice but they have a right to do what they feel comfortable with without being called names and wrongfully diagnosed as "self hating".
So this unnecessary name calling and labeling people as self hating is ridiculous and can under no circumstances be proven. If you don’t like an individuals politics or the decision they make about how they wear their hair, just say so. There is nothing wrong with civil discourse and disagreement. As I have maintained, just because you do not agree with someone’s politics or hair style, this cheap misguided labeling of so called self hate is tiring and monotonous. It really is.
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Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 738
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 01:05 pm: |
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Ntfs, the thing that separates you from the Black males I spoke with, is that it doesn't phase you either way--whether a Black woman goes straight or kinky--it doesn't matter.
These men in particular, that I spoke with feel that the overwhelming majority of Black women don't look right with their "real" and "natural hair". One guy said that it makes women of color look "manly" and "masculine", and that kinky hair is suited for black males and not women. He even further stated, that Black women should continue to relax, press, and add extentions if they can't grow their hair long and silky.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5766
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:15 pm: |
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Ntfs,
One need not be a “clinical psychologist” to divine the source of all this hair straightening and perming. One need only ponder the following questions:
@ Why would millions of Black women inherently PREFER to expend +$1,000 and +100 hour per year straightening, perming and artificially extending their hair in ways that just happen to replicate the texture of the very people who’ve told them they’re ugly and/or inferior?
@ Why would millions of Black women PREFER go nearly their ENTIRE lives WITHOUT ever publicly brandishing their natural hair pattern?
@ What other race of women on earth are compelled to submit to this particular brand of self-defacement?
@ Why aren’t there any White, Hispanic, Asian, Arab or Indian women who PREFER frizzing their hair to simulate the natural style and texture of BLACK hair? And why aren’t there a BILLION industry dedicated to accommodating that PREFERENCE as there is of Black women radically altering their hair?
@ Why would Black women who are greatly in need of exercise PREFER foregoing such for fear of losing their costly perms?
@ And tell me, why would Black women PREFER to do what no other race of women on earth are required to do to their hair? Why?
@ Why would Black women PREFER to spend all that money and all that time (And, yes, Black women spend WAY more per capita to beautify than do any other women.) styling?
@ What rational person PREFERS to spend +5 hours at a hair salon? Submit her head to possible burns and injuries from blazing hot straighten irons/curlers/dryers and dangerous lyes UNLESS she was doing something she felt she HAD to do, because she felt what she ALREADY possessed, in its innate form, simply was INFERIOR?
This do not represent valid PREFERENCES, man. This represent Black women being coached and trained from the giddy-up that their own, natural hair is bad, wrong, nappy, kinky, tangly, etc. This is Black women being made to believe that that most basic element of their visage and beauty – their CROWN – simply is NOT good enuff.
And here is some comparative questioning for you:
@ Would millions of Black women seeking to obtain noses that looked like that of Julia Roberts’ qualify as some manifestation of self-hate?
@ Would millions of Black women obtaining lip reduction surgeries qualify as some manifestation of self-hate?
@ Would millions of Black woman attempting to lighten their skin color qualify as some manifestation of self-hate?
@ And if you’ll answer “Yes” to any or all of the above, HOW would such be materially DIFFERENT from the millions of Black women who spend their ENTIRE lives straightening, perming and artificially extending their hair?
But, understand, I do NOT consider or use the term “self-hated” in the pejorative sense. I am describing a situation or condition. I’m not castigating the women who suffer from it anymore than I would be by stating that someone’s in need of chemotherapy because he-she has cancer.
Nor do I limit my opinion to Black women here. Because to me the Black MEN who require their women to straighten and perm abide the very same form of self-hated the women do. For surely WHOM you choose to lay with and WHY you choose to lay with her are a reflection of who YOU are.
Your being “tired of” or “bored” with my analysis does NOT make it invalid. Hell. I’m sure +50 years ago there were LOT of White foks who “tired of” hearing Black foks complain about their not being able to vote and attend the University of Alabama.
Moreover, your rebuttal of my prior post was overwrought with faulty inferences and fallacious analogies (I mean, the Star Parker [whom I actually LIKE] and Allan Keys [whom I did like prior to his ridiculous bid to defeat Baraka Obama] comparison is hilarious in it irrelevance.).
If you truly seek to advance as an intellectual, I recommend that you consider ASKING the basis of one’s position BEFORE you attempt to refute it. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1305
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:19 pm: |
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Abm,
Does your wife perm her hair? How about your girls? |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 560
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:25 pm: |
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”Ntfs, the thing that separates you from the Black males I spoke with, is that it doesn't phase you either way--whether a Black woman goes straight or kinky--it doesn't matter.”
Yeah, this is true. As long as it’s her natural hair and is well kept and groomed, I can deal with it. I don’t make political judgments about the way a woman wears her hair. As I stated before –it’s just my personal preference and opinion.
”These men in particular, that I spoke with feel that the overwhelming majority of Black women don't look right with their "real" and "natural hair".”
Wow! You mean if she wears a natural or regardless if it is a perm, dreaded or other? If so, I can’t personally relate to such thinking.
”One guy said that it makes women of color look "manly" and "masculine", and that kinky hair is suited for black males and not women.”
Well, I disagree with that. But again, as I have stated in the beginning, it’s personal preference and taste.
”He even further stated, that Black women should continue to relax, press, and add extensions if they can't grow their hair long and silky.”
It seems as if his preference is long straight hair. Again, I personally don’t have a problem with this because it is his personal preference. I like long straight hair also. But I know that black women do not have the genetics for such type of hair. So I accept and appreciate what they do have. And I don’t subscribe to the odious and self degrading classification of “good hair” and “bad hair”. I detest that stupid ass terminology as much as I despise the now celebrated “N” word. Yes, some hair is more manageable than others. That is a fact that is independent of race politics. Only a fool would argue otherwise. But regardless, I cannot stomach the “good hair” and “bad hair” syndrome. You have no idea how much it churns my stomach when I hear it. So I’m not surprised about the comments made by the black men you know. I have personally heard some brothers make some very harsh comments about the natural state and length of black women’s hair.
I know this may offend some readers but I love seeing black women with long braids. I’ve seen all types. In fact, every time I see a sister with her hair in dreads I always make a point to compliment her for wearing her natural hair. In fact, I was driving down the street about two years ago and I saw a woman walking from the distance. I saw she had extremely long braids hanging down to the ground as she was walking. I said to myself, “Oh Lord! I can’t believe this hood rat would actually stick some fake ass braids on her head that extend almost to the ground and walk around in public like this.” I shook my head with disgust at this spectacle. I’m sorry, but I can’t deal with these very popular mixed purple, red, blue, orange, etc, extensions (that hang down the back) that a number of black women are sporting. Again: IT’S JUST MY OPINION!
Anyway, as I drove closer, I saw that her hair was not fake! IT WAS HER REAL HAIR! THIS WOMAN HAD GROWN HAIR THAT WAS ABOUT TWO INCHES ABOVE HER ANKLES! As she walked, the hair was swishing back and forth like a curtain. I have never, ever in my life seen any woman (regardless of her race) with that much hair! The dreads were generously mixed with gray and you plainly could see this woman was no spring chicken. I’m sure she has been growing her hair since 1975! I could not understand how she held up under the weight of all that hair. She was tall and each one of those dreads was “over” five feet long and thick. I once took a picture of a Filipina when I lived in the Philippines that had long thick hair that was midway down to her calves. Longest hair I had ever seen until I saw that black woman lumbering down the street underneath the weight of all that hair. It was quite a sight! True story.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5767
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:32 pm: |
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Moonsign,
My wife has locs. My youngest daughter's mostly braid and cornrolls. And my eldest straighten her hair about a third of the time and most of the reast of the time she braid, pony tail or wears sort of a curly fro (ala Scary Spice).
None of them perm. My daughters have NEVER had perms. And my wife stopped perming about a couple years into our marriage. |
Satina
Newbie Poster
Username: Satina
Post Number: 16
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 07:13 pm: |
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"They'll SAY it a 'preference' thing. But it TRULY is a form of trained self-hatred."
This is a good thread topic. It's an ugly truth many blacks don't want to admit. How many black women (with identifiable African hair) do you know that will walk out openly with hair in its natural state and still feel womanly and beautiful? Seriously, who really likes going through the pain of relaxing their hair every month? Who, likes camping out in the salon for 24 hours straight waiting for their turn in the stylist chair? Some of us have to schedule days off work just to get our hair done. Why don't the majority of black women know how to swim? All valid questions that can't be overlooked. BUT
On the flip side...
Hair, wheather, straight or kinky doesn't make the person. Sometimes the hairstyle is just an accessory like a purse or belt. Ex. When I go to the club, I'll rock the straight weave and when I go traveling, I'll wear my hair in braids. Or If I'm feeling really lazy, I throw on a wig. Does this make me any less of a black woman because I choose to do so? I know who I am and a napp or a piece of weave isn't going to validate my me. Never has and never will.
I do realize there are loads of weak black woman who don't know much of black history let along their female legacy and to that, I shake my head in disgust. I feel it's up to the mother to define how their daughters will view their legacy wich is why I will do my part if I ever have daughters to teach them their true heritage as the Queens of this earth, whether I'm wearing straight weave or nappy dreds.-And to me, it doesn't matter what my head looks like, as long as the message is given.
I think it's a shame though that black men don't appreciate our hair. They'll claim it doesn't matter, but I've had a black guy say one of the big reasons black men date white women is because of their hair. White women wash their hair everyday (the ones who are sanitary), it smells fresh, black men can run their fingers through it easily, and it's long and silky. So there you go. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2775
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 07:54 pm: |
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I think it's a shame though that black men don't appreciate our hair.
How can they when black mothers never wear it?
Boys receive acculturation from the mother. Her message (whether she means to send it or not) is always that the Non-Black woman is "superior" because she has good hair.
Boys see the shame and chronic self-doubt in black women---and the BLOND negro woman craze is making this problem 100 times worse, because it makes the admission of inferiority TOTAL.
Beyonce/Mary J. Blige are the biggest baffoons since Sambo.
Doesn't matter what reasons we CLAIM to wear so much fake hair---the message is sent regardless of what we meant it to mean.
SATINA,
My only wish is that Black Americans could take their children to visit an African nation where the entire nation of people wear their natural hair and live in their own world. No matter how modern Africa has become, there are many "States" like that in every African country.
And it hurts me to the inward floors of my soul to see Black Americans degraded and humiliated this way.
It's still slavery.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2776
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 08:00 pm: |
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And by the way, SATINA----just so you'll know----the "wig" was first created by Egyptian women 25,000 years ago and has been a staple of African culture ever since---we also weave fur into our hair for thickness and length and we have braided our hair from time immorial.
The only difference in Africa is that this was traditionally done to look LIKE OURSELVES. So you are correct about Black women being "Creative" and still being black women. It isn't wrong to ACCESSORIZE at all---but in America, because of the racial disparity, it is mainly done to IMITATE the white woman's look, to similate "mixed blood", to be accepted by whites and reject self.
And last but not least--in every African nation, including Egypt and Ethiopia---the highest STANDARD of "Fertility and Feminity" was always the shaved, bald head of a married woman. All Egyptians wore "wigs" over shaved heads just as the cartoon "PRINCE OF EGYPT" showed, and all over Africa, "long hair" was considered masculine and worn primarily by men.
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Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 487
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 12:37 am: |
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Braids. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5772
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 07:34 am: |
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Satina,
As long as the MAJORITY of Black women insist upon trying to don artificially straighten hairstyles, the more they will encourage Black men to value White, Asian, Hispanic & other hair over than of their own. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1308
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 09:16 am: |
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Abm,
Your wife has locs(!), I would have never imagined! I have always liked locs on (black) men and women! |
Satina
Newbie Poster
Username: Satina
Post Number: 17
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 09:47 am: |
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I think it's a shame though that black men don't appreciate our hair.
"How can they when black mothers never wear it?
Boys receive acculturation from the mother. Her message (whether she means to send it or not) is always that the Non-Black woman is "superior" because she has good hair.
Boys see the shame and chronic self-doubt in black women---and the BLOND negro woman craze is making this problem 100 times worse, because it makes the admission of inferiority TOTAL.
Beyonce/Mary J. Blige are the biggest baffoons since Sambo.
Doesn't matter what reasons we CLAIM to wear so much fake hair---the message is sent regardless of what we meant it to mean.
*************************************************
I agree Kola. AA women are in a sad predicament. I use to color my hair a lot. I started it when I was 12. I've had the long blonde weave but do you know how damaging that is to the hair? I said I wouldn't color my hair blond ever again because A. it's extremely damaging and B. it does send the wrong message to my sisterhood. And I also feel that because I'm aspiring to be an entertainer, I don't want to fall into the Beyonce/Mary mode. I'll keep my hair dark - of course with blue, purple or magenta streaks 
One of the biggest reasons why we don't wear our hair more natural is because of black men. Seriously, how little would our phone ring if we went natural or with dreds? Black men don't esteem the natural look of a black woman's hair on a large enough scale to warrant us changing it. If you really want to know, white society and BLACK MEN dictate to black women what our beauty standards should be. And THAT is truly sad. If black men held us up like they should, we would have no issue with being more natural. Black women are loyal, and if our black men says "no, that's not attractive", by his words or actions, then we do whatever we can to attract him back to us. I really don't think wearing weaves is turning men to women of other races because in the end there's nothing we can do if he sets his sights on someone else (white women). At that point, it doesn't matter what color the hair is or how long the weave is, cause the brotha's gone, jumped ship, skipped town, sold out...
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5774
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Satina: "I really don't think wearing weaves is turning men to women of other races because in the end there's nothing we can do if he sets his sights on someone else (white women)."
THAT is the reason WHY Black women should STOP all the weaving, straightening and perming.
Because, on some level, you're making yourselves into fake, cheap imitations of White women. You'd be better off embellishing what is most nature to you. Because White women can NOT out-Black a Black woman.
I agree that Black men should stop glorify symbols and manifestations of White beauty. I also think part of what will have to happen is Black women will have to stop giving them REASON for such. |
Robynmarie
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 95
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 11:58 am: |
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I wish we would pay as much attention to OUR INSIDES as we do to our outer selves.
There is nothing wrong with straightening your hair. Plenty of black women have naturally straight hair. It doesn't mean they are trying to be white.
If you wear your hair "nappy" (I wear twists) there are plenty of men who will appreciate and love you-if you love yourself and present yourself as lovable.
I know a woman who is completely bald who has more men than she knows what to do with (she's a hairstylist, ironically.)
It doesn't matter how you wear your hair if your heart, mind, soul and attitude are all fucked up.
Why let a man you don't even know have so much control over your life? Find someone who is loves you for you.
Okay, I am off my soap box for now. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5776
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 12:24 pm: |
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Robynmarie,
I am often STRUCK by how beautiful the Black women are I see who have very LITTLE hair. I think because there's less hair, you tend to pay more attention to her ears, eyes and skin.
And, its strange. But I find that the sistas with less hair seem to have more of a regal aura about them. Perhaps because their being liberated from the burdens of hair adds to their confidence.
I think hair often does more to MINIMIZE a woman's overall beauty than it does to ADD to such.
All,
I should say I'm not TOTALLY against a sistah donning straighten hair, be it real or artificial. What I lament is how Black women SLAVISHLY straighten, perm and extend. It would be cool if sistas sometimes did the perm thing but MORE often wore their natural hair.
But to go your ENTIRE lives straightening, perming and extending GREATLY contributes to the overall diminishment of Black beauty.
As I asked Ntfs, what if Black women were getting lip reductions and skin lightening procedures as frequently as they straighten? I think MOST of us would decry that. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2778
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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RobynMarie,
I realize that you are American, but I take issue with this comment:
Plenty of black women have naturally straight hair.
That's NOT true.
If a woman has "naturally straight" hair---then she is not all Black.
Black People have a very special hair texture that no other race has. When you find our hair on the heads of other groups (Jews, Arabs), that is because they have black blood in them.
But no other race has "THE PROOF" growing from their scalps.
Only the Blacks, and that is because this is God's marking that anointed the original Hebrew people in CUSH, that they would be persecuted and hated because they are the first race---the ones made in God's image---and have "GOD'S HAIR", not "Good Hair".
And it stands that any so called Black woman whose hair is naturally straight or wavy like a Spaniards----is only PART black. She is not a BLACK woman.
____________
ABM wrote and I agree:
Robynmarie,
I am often STRUCK by how beautiful the Black women are I see who have very LITTLE hair. I think because there's less hair, you tend to pay more attention to her ears, eyes and skin.
And, its strange. But I find that the sistas with less hair seem to have more of a regal aura about them. Perhaps because their being liberated from the burdens of hair adds to their confidence.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2779
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:03 pm: |
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Prophet Ciisa (Jesus Christ) was persecuted because he had "GOD's Hair".
His killers had left Cush 2,000 years before and were no longer black men, and they hated him and shaved him and placed thorns in place of his nappy crown, to mock him and God.
As my Auntie Ramah in Sudan used to say: "GOD IS A BLACK MAN".
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5779
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:16 pm: |
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Kola,
That is a GLORIOUSLY beautiful woman and photograph. |
Satina
Newbie Poster
Username: Satina
Post Number: 18
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:27 pm: |
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I thought it was a mannequin at first. She is beautiful!! Who is that woman? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5780
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:31 pm: |
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Satina,
I'll BET you see women who look like her EVERYDAY. But here's the thing: You probably don't realize how BEAUTIFUL they are because their HAIR is getting in the way. |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 461
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:40 pm: |
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Kola, this "Fable" knocks my socks off. Wish I had been raised with it:
Black People have a very special hair texture that no other race has. When you find our hair on the heads of other groups (Jews, Arabs), that is because they have black blood in them.
But no other race has "THE PROOF" growing from their scalps.
Only the Blacks, and that is because this is God's marking that anointed the original Hebrew people in CUSH, that they would be persecuted and hated because they are the first race---the ones made in God's image---and have "GOD'S HAIR", not "Good Hair".
And it stands that any so called Black woman whose hair is naturally straight or wavy like a Spaniards----is only PART black. She is not a BLACK woman.
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Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 267
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:43 pm: |
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PGB,
this is off topic but are you the same prettybabygirl as on black womenw ith biracial children.....i started a thread to catch your attention but i guess you didnt see it |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 462
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:44 pm: |
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No, Misty. I'm not.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2780
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:46 pm: |
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The woman in the photo is Nnenna, the Nigerian (from Ibo tribe) who competed on "AMERICA'S TOP MODEL" last year.
She lives in Texas.
Ibo is pronounced "EEE-BO"
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Satina
Newbie Poster
Username: Satina
Post Number: 19
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 02:37 pm: |
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"Satina,
I'll BET you see women who look like her EVERYDAY. But here's the thing: You probably don't realize how BEAUTIFUL they are because their HAIR is getting in the way."
***************
No, no ABM I don't wear weave goggles. I can appreciate beauty without all the mane and tail. I've never seen a beautiful bald woman in person honestly. |
Satina
Newbie Poster
Username: Satina
Post Number: 20
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 02:40 pm: |
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Thanks Kola. I like the pictures you've posted.
You know something, I guess I never knew the Egyptian queens were bald underneath the wigs and headpieces. |
Robynmarie
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 97
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 06:09 pm: |
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Kola-
Please tell me who is a "pure" black American? Most of us are "mixed" with something.
For example, my family origins began in Morocco. But we look nothing like Moroccans. My kin folk are dark and/or brown skinned with nappy hair because my ancestors inter-married/inter-mated along the way.
Also, a lot of early black Americans mated and married Indians who were also enslaved by white people. Descendents from these unions have hair that is not always nappy but straight or naturally curly. How can you say these people aren't black?
Abm-
Here in L.A. sistas, are obessessed with weaves, the longer the better seems to be the motto. When I jokingly question them about "Korean horse hair," many tell me it is for "convenience." :rolleyes: It's the whole Hollywood thing, IMO.
Yes, those hairless women are bold and beautiful.
A sista has to have lots of nerve and confidence to let the hair go-for good. |
Urban_scribe
Veteran Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 68
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 06:22 pm: |
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And it stands that any so called Black woman whose hair is naturally straight or wavy like a Spaniards----is only PART black. She is not a BLACK woman.
The hair texture of Spaniards is no different than the hair texture of say...Arabs.
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Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 465
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 06:40 pm: |
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Also, a lot of early black Americans mated and married Indians who were also enslaved by white people. Descendents from these unions have hair that is not always nappy but straight or naturally curly. How can you say these people aren't black?
You just said yourself that they're "mixed", Robyn.
Kola's point is valid. One of the ways that being mixed shows itself in blacks is by creating hair that is no longer just "nappy".
She said they were "part black", not all black, which is the truth.
I am very light skinned and I have very long hair that isn't completely nappy and I don't try to claim that I'm only Black and that's all I am.
I live on the East Coast and towards the Southern states, Robyn, and I almost never see black women who have naturally straight hair.
The overwhelming majority of blacks out here are chocolate colored with nappy hair.
Also, FYI. Indians owned black slaves more than Whites owned Indians as slaves.
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Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 466
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 06:43 pm: |
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The hair texture of Spaniards is no different than the hair texture of say...Arabs.
Neither Spaniards nor Arabs have black people's hair, so what's your point?
NOTE: There are rare occasions, as Kola pointed out, where Jewish or Arab person is born with African hair, but that's like 1 Arab out of 100 who has African hair.
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Robynmarie
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 99
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 06:53 pm: |
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Okay.
But because folks are dark skinned with nappy hair, doesn't mean they are not "mixed." Most black Americans have something other than African heritage. I am dark skinned with nappy hair and my father's grandmother was a Black Foot Indian (slave).
BTW, which tribe of Indians owned black slaves? I have never heard that, and California (where I live) was settled by Indians. What countries did they buy their slaves from? Did these slaves live on plantations or reservations? What kind of work did they do?
Do you happen to know what foods these Afro-Indians ate? I am very interested in this part of black American history. |
Urban_scribe
Veteran Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 69
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 06:57 pm: |
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Point is: why would someone single out the hair texture of Spaniards as not being Black hair yet deliberately overlook the hair texture of their own kind?
I think other people understood the significance of my statement. It just went over your head. Obviously. |
Urban_scribe
Veteran Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 70
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 07:04 pm: |
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Robynmarie,
It is historical fact that Blacks were owned by Native Americans.
The NA nations that owned the most Black slaves were Cherokee and Blackfoot. This is why you hear so many Blacks who claim NA blood will tell you they are part Cherokee or part Blackfoot and, in many cases, both.
The Cherokee and Blackfoot nations adopted the European's ways more than any other NA nations. But one of the most striking differences between NA ownership of Black slaves is NA's, for the most part, were not against intermarriage with Blacks.
This is really fascinating reading. I can recommend several books if you're interested. |
Robynmarie
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 100
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 07:09 pm: |
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Yes, Urban_scribe. I would love to know more about this phenomenon. I assume these slaves were located in the same Southern states as the Euro-slaveowners? When you say they adopted the Euro way of slavery, do you mean slaves were considered "property"? If so, why did they accept "intermarriage?" |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 467
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 07:11 pm: |
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Kola Boof is dark skinned with nappy hair, Robyn, and she is BIRACIAL. She is "half" Arab.
You're taking it personally rather than acknowledging that to "AFRICANS", there is a different system of who is black.
As Americans, you and I pretty much consider anyone with a drop of black blood to be black. We don't point out the mixed ones from the dark ones, but when I read the story of people in Tanzania referring to Halle Berry as a "White woman", it dawned on me that Africa is not America.
You said that there are black women with naturally straight hair, and I can see how to an African person that seems absurd.
Urban_Scribe,
You really have a chip on your shoulder.
Since I'm not one of the people who has anything against you or had a problem with you, I don't see why you're acting like a butthole towards me.
I also don't have any problem acknowledging that I know what "nappy" hair is as opposed to shaggy or mixed hair like my own. Black people do, as Kola pointed out, have a very unique texture of hair that identifies them.
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Robynmarie
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 101
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 07:15 pm: |
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The point I am making is that 95% of African Amerircans are mixed with something, regardless of the characteristics that show up from generaton to generation. |
Urban_scribe
Veteran Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 71
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 09:01 pm: |
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Prettybabygirl, the internet leaves a lot open to misinterpret. You say you're one of the few here who doesn't have a problem with me. If that's the case then it's quite possible that I've misinterpreted you on the following threads:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/179/14041.html?1154832913
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/179/14405.html?1155058696
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/179/14405.html?1155058696
(this is not an error - I misinterpreted you TWICE in this thread)
There are a couple others but I don't have time to go through them all at the moment.
Again, if I've misinterpreted you, I apologize for being a "butthole" towards you. I'm not hostile by nature but I do believe in fighting fire with fire. If you come at me, I'm coming back at you. Nuff said.
Robynmarie It would be my pleasure to provide you with the info. I have to run out just now but look for the thread tomorrow. To quickly answer your question about the intermarriages: NAs view any marriage outside their specific nation as "intermarriage". So if a Navajo marries a Sioux that is considered an "intermarriage". SO, it made little or no difference to NAs if the marriage was with a Black per se since any marriage outside the "tribe" was frowned upon. Therefore marrying Black was NOT the true issue, marrying ANYONE outside your nation WAS the issue. It's a lot more involved than that but that's the jist of it. Gotta run. Look for the thread tomorrow. Goodnight.
My apologies for hijacking the thread with off-topic discussion.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2792
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 12:39 am: |
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Robynmarie, regardless of what 95% of African-Americans are mixed with, those who have African hair and some measure of brown skin are viewed BY AFRICANS as "black".
Africans (we being THE black people of the planet) could give a shit about "DNA" and have a very simple system.
If you LOOK BLACK (they can see themselves and the ancestors within you)--then you're black.
(*There are some yellow people like Redd Foxx and Toni Morrison who would be considered "black", because they look so pure despite the light skin.)
If you LOOK YELLOW, MIXED, MULATTO, etc.---you're Half-Caste.
If you LOOK WHITE (ie. Mariah Carey)---you're white. They don't give a damn if Michael Jordan and Alek Wek are your parents--if you come out white, then you're WHITE.
And since this is the standard of "FREE BLACK PEOPLE" in their natural, God-given setting----and is in total opposition to the standard created by the White Slave Master in America, I felt very strongly that it should be presented in the face of you basically asserting the one drop rule--which is NOT WRONG on your part, because that's all you know and that's what you come from as an American black descended from slaves who were TAUGHT on plantations that anything that rubs up against "blackness" is defiled by it---that BLACKS are so inferior that just anybody can be them.
I, however, found it horrifically insulting for you to degrade BLACK women by claiming that they naturally have straight hair.
But of course, you can't begin to comprehend how an African woman would feel to hear such an insult. You probably think straight hair is "pretty", "desirable"--nothing to be repulsed by on a black child.
And you would NEVER acknowledge that perhaps you are seeing through a SLAVE EYE. You didn't even know that Indians owned slaves, so you certainly couldn't imagine what Black people who were never slaves think about blackness and themselves.
Alas.
A woman with brown skin and European-type hair (naturally straight hair) is not "black" to us, as many Ethnic Ethiopians will tell you. Their "upper class" is completely mixed and they have dark brown skin and non-African hair and they do not call themselves "black" people, but the majority of the country---the black Ethiopians with deep brown skin and nappy hair are called "black" people...because they are BLACK.
Not all "AFRICANS"----are black.
But they're still Africans.
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Robynmarie
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 102
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 02:38 am: |
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By your "African" definition, no one in America is black, because most of us so-called African Americans are "mixed" with something else.
Besides, "black" is a fairly recent name for Africans in America, (who by the way were not all descended from slaves), we used to be called Negroes and Colored.
The problem is our history was ripped away from us, so many of us can't trace our heritage past our grand-grandparents, so we don't know where we really come from. There is a certain amount of needless shame in that fact, because it is not our fault.
Black folks have a saying "You never know what's gonna show up in the baby" meaning you never know what physical characteristics from your gene pool will appear in your children. Two light skinned people can have a dark skinned child or two dark skin people can have a light skinned child.
Southern whites have a loathsome, despicable version of the same sentiment: "there is always a "n------" in the woodpile."
This is their crude and disgusting way of acknowledging the same thing.
And BTW, you can't insult me saying I see things through a "slave eye" (whatever that is), I am the proud descent of African slaves from Mississippi, the strongest, most resourceful and spiritual people ever to have lived.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5790
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 06:32 am: |
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Satina: "I've never seen a beautiful bald woman in person honestly."
Satina,
How often do you seen any bald women...PERIOD? Not many, I wager. I'll bet you've gone YEARS without witnessing a single bald woman - Black, White or Red.
Moreover; could it be because you (and all of the rest of us) have been bred to associate beauty with long, straight and flowing hair; you probably would have great difficulty viewing almost ANY bald woman as being beautiful? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5793
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 07:26 am: |
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All,
Some of you are unnecessarily (though perhaps NOT unintentionally) confusing the issue. It's NOT who your parents were/are. It's whether your looking more White grants you advantage, favor and dominion over those who look more Black.
It's really that simple...and complex.
Does every individual White/Lighter person prevail over every individual Black/Darker person? No.
But do the MAJORITY/AVERAGE White/Lighter person prevail over the MAJORITY/AVERAGE Black/Darker person? Yes.
No REASONABLE minded person can observe the past and present of this country, hemisphere and world then HONESTLY assert otherwise. |
Satina
Newbie Poster
Username: Satina
Post Number: 21
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 09:27 am: |
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That very well could be ABM. I think now that I'm older I realize that the woman with natural hair is stronger than the woman with processed hair because she is not her hair - she's all woman. I'm reading Black Rage and although the book was written in 1968 the section on black women is timeless. It is still representative of what we continue to go through. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5798
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 09:51 am: |
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Satina,
IMAGINE if great numbers of Black women cut off all the weave, permed and straightened hair and then very proudly went out into the world.
IMAGINE how frightenly POWERFUL such would be!! |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2796
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 05:01 pm: |
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Robynmarie said:
By your "African" definition, no one in America is black, because most of us so-called African Americans are "mixed" with something else.
KOLA:
RobynMarie,
It is SO Frustrating talking to you, because you didn't read a thing I said.
The African definition is actually the OPPOSITE of what you just said.
I WROTE:
Africans could give a shit about "DNA" and have a very simple system.
If you LOOK BLACK (they can see themselves and the ancestors within you)--then you're black.
Now how do MOST Black Americans not fall under that category, RobynMarie???
Denzel Washington...India Arie...Will Smith...Toni Morrison...CeCe Winans....Yolanda Adams....Cynthia Mckinney....Magic Johnson
...Redd Foxx...Jesse Jackson...USHER
They all are Black Americans and they all fit the AFRICAN DEFINITION of what is "Black"-----they LOOK like Africans and the African ancestors show clearly in those people. Not one of them looks "ambiguous" or anything other than Africoid.
Again, we don't give a shit about DNA, Indians or anything else----that's YOUR standard.
Mariah Carey's mama could be Alek Wek and her daddy Michael Jordan----and by the African standard, as long as the black blood is not showing/is not dominant---she's NOT BLACK, she's WHITE----because she LOOKS WHITE, therefore she is.
Do you get what I wrote now?
______________________
And the notion of "Black" and "Blackness" are NOT new concepts to African people.
We have ALWAYS called ourselves Black and celebrated Blackness.
Since we are the MAJORITY in Africa, however, we don't have to mention it to each other as often we do our TRIBE or Mother's name.
You, as an American MINORITY, has to constantly be aware of your difference from the MAJORITY.
But I'll be damned if Africans don't discuss themselves in terms of BLACKNESS and always have.
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 569
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 01:19 pm: |
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Ntfs,
One need not be a “clinical psychologist” to divine the source of all this hair straightening and perming. One need only ponder the following questions:
@ Why would millions of Black women inherently PREFER to expend +$1,000 and +100 hour per year straightening, perming and artificially extending their hair in ways that just happen to replicate the texture of the very people who’ve told them they’re ugly and/or inferior?
Because they choose to. They, just like you, have free will to do so. Many black women choose not to subject their hair to such changes. Why? Because they choose not to. And I don’t recall hearing other races openly telling black people that their hair is ugly. I’m quite sure they probably think it. I don’t question that for a second. But I don’t think many are brazen enough to confront black people to their faces and tell them their hair is ugly and inferior on a consistent and ongoing basis. Black people are the main culprits of this unfortunate behavior. I don’t recall other races consistently referring to black people as nappy headed and referring to their hair as either “good hair” or “bad hair”. But I as long as I can remember, I have heard (and still hear it to this very day) black people shamelessly and arrogantly referring to other blacks with such ignorant stupid terminology. Why should they not be held accountable for this behavior?
@ Why would millions of Black women PREFER go nearly their ENTIRE lives WITHOUT ever publicly brandishing their natural hair pattern?
Again, because they choose to! They have a choice of doing or not doing so. But your argument is that they do not do so because they are ashamed of their hair! Well, what about the black women who choose to wear their hair in a natural state? Why did Nina Simone choose to so almost 50 years ago when it was unheard of to do so? Free will! You seem to suggest black women are helpless victims with not sense of personal pride in their natural physical genetics. I’m sure this is true for some but I do not believe it applies to very black female. Just like you and your wife exercise free will to not perm your daughters hair. Why were you able to make that decision but black women as a group are not? Why are you different? You don’t allow it! You resist the idea of using chemicals on your daughters hair, is this not true? Well –what lead you to that decision?
@ What other race of women on earth are compelled to submit to this particular brand of……………………….
When discussing black people's hair, it isn't just a matter of finding a good style, a good dresser or a good product. It's also about how we as black people feel about how our hair looks in its natural state and what we do based on those feelings. It's also about how American society and culture feels about what black people do with their hair (i.e. Cynthia McKinney). If you don't think that black people's hair isn't a battleground for issues of race, culture, assimilation and bigotry, you haven't been paying attention to the history of black Americans.
I am aware that black people can be denied/fired from jobs for not wearing a hairstyle that makes white people feel comfortable. Even in some corners of the black community, straight hair is considered more acceptable because it emulates the greater society at large. And even though black hair does not emulate naturally straight hair very well, it's closer to assimilation than braids or dread locks.
Personally, I'm more for individual preference and expression. If you like the way your hair looks when it's relaxed, even if it is a source of consternation by “we know better than you do fanatical Afro-blackologists,” then wear your hair that way. If you prefer a natural style, from dread locks to fashionable sista lock curls, even if it means the loss of employment or respect by those who prefer chemically relaxed hair, then wear it. As long as you realize there are advantages and drawbacks to either choice, you should be free to do so without having your political or psychological mindset questioned (i.e. self hate).
Black women are as diverse in hair texture as they in skin tone and hair color (much to the disdain and angst of the skin color haters who frequent this board). In fairness, some black women look better with permed and straighten hair, wearing it in any style as they wish too. I’m sure there are black female readers of this board who will agree. It does not necessarily make a black woman self loathing or a helpless victim suffering from some nebulous form of a self hatred syndrome if she chooses a certain hair style. "White people do not have a patent on straight hair!" Nor should Black women feel obligated to wear their hair in a certain way that is approving of their boyfriends or any member of black or white society.
Again, there are varied individual reasons why people perm their hair, so you can not make a broad generalization insisting that people do so in order to become “more acceptable” to the world or suffer from some form of self hatred. To assume that black women straighten or perm their hair is because they suffer from low racial esteem or because of historical psychological self hate or that they do so with the intent of imitating another race, is misleading and unfair. People have different characteristics that makes them the person they are and why they do the things they do.
This do not represent valid PREFERENCES, man. This represent Black women being coached and trained from the giddy-up that their own, natural hair is bad, wrong, nappy, kinky, tangly, etc. This is Black women being made to believe that that most basic element of their visage and beauty – their CROWN – simply is NOT good enuff.
The controversial and very politically charged issues surrounding black folk's hair will continue on and on with no end in the foreseeable future. Especially if black people keep giving each other grief about their personal choices and questioning their so called “blackness” and the veracity of their “political thinking”. Your listing of questions was very good. But the questions by themselves do not in any why conclusively proves that black people suffer from some form of self hatred. When I was young, I found a hot comb laying around the house that was used on my female cousins hair. I used that same hot comb on my hair! Why? Because I was wearing my hair long and my hair was thick. I did not straighten my hair but I used the hot comb soften it somewhat. By doing so it made my hair more manageable. I just used a wide tooth comb and combed my hair back. That was that. Nothing more. As is said, it made my hair more manageable and easier to comb. My doing this had nothing to so with thinking I was white or hating my self for being black. I DID IT BECAUSE IT MADE MY HAIR EASIER TO COMB AND MANAGE. End of subject! It was a preference –just like many black women exercise.
And for the record, let me say this so you cannot accuse me of being historically ignorant or naïve. Individual preferences (whether rooted in self hate or not) cannot negate the reality that our obsession with straightening our hair reflects the psychology of racial conditioning and the images that we are inundated with. However, to assume that all black people who straighten their hair do so with the psychological belief this will endow them with white characteristics is not true. There are different reasons why people straighten their hair; it can be because it is less hassling or because the appearance is more gratifying to the individual. There is no evidence to support the belief that a black person who straightens their hair, perceives such and act as having the features of a white person.
But, understand, I do NOT consider or use the term “self-hated” in the pejorative sense. I am describing a situation or condition. I’m not castigating the women who suffer from it anymore than I would be by stating that someone’s in need of chemotherapy because he-she has cancer.
And once again, that is your opinion. You have yet to provide any compelling evidence to support your claim of across the board self hatred. The burden of proof lies in your court since you are making the claim. Outside to your own personal political interpretation and beliefs, you have no proof that these women are laboring in some type of fog of self hate. Every time I hear someone make this nefarious claim, I always ask myself : HOW DO YOU KNOW? DID YOU ASK THEM DID THEY HATE THEMSELVES? DO YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF IMPERICAL STATISTICAL OR SCIENTIFICALLY VERIFIABLE INFORMATION TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM? OR DID YOU JUST DECIDE THEY HATE THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BEHAVING IN MANNER THAT YOU PERSONALLY FEEL IS APPROPRIATE?
Nor do I limit my opinion to Black women here. Because to me the Black MEN who require their women to straighten and perm abide the very same form of self-hated the women do. For surely WHOM you choose to lay with and WHY you choose to lay with her are a reflection of who YOU are.
Interesting point. I agree with you –but only partially. I would not personally require a black woman I was in a relationship to straighten or perm her hair. If her hair was not like that when I met her, I would not require her to do so later. As I have stated before, I just like hair that is real, well kept, clean and groomed. Those are my requirements and personal preference. A black woman can perm it, straighten it , dread it, Afro, et al. JUST MAKE THE TIME TO GROOM AND KEEP IT NEAT.
If a black man demands that his woman straighten or perm her hair, I would be curious as to why. I’m not going to jump the gun and assume from that and that alone, that he is suffering from some form of self hatred. I don’t know that and actually neither do you. You are assuming that it is some form of self hatred because it does not fall within the framework of your personal beliefs of what is politically acceptable and correct thinking.
You sated a lot questions that were very good and compelling. I like that. But those questions in themselves do not prove a mental state of self hatred!
Your being “tired of” or “bored” with my analysis does NOT make it invalid. Hell. I’m sure +50 years ago there were LOT of White foks who “tired of” hearing Black foks complain about their not being able to vote and attend the University of Alabama.
First of all, never said I was tired of “your” analysis. I never made such a personal accusation towards you. I said I was tired and bored of hearing this groundless ongoing demonizing of blacks by other blacks of suffering from “self hate” simply because they do not politically believe nor agree with their thinking. It’s a cheap and easy way to dodge and evade debating real issues of difference without playing the race card and calling people names. I never understood this weak tactic of attacking another black persons veracity by questioning their so called race loyalty and blackness. These racist attacks are just as destructive and insidious as whites calling blacks racist names and questioning whether they are actually homo sapiens. It’s ridiculous.
As far as whites tiring of blacks demanding to have access to the University of Alabama as any other American citizen, I don’t doubt that. That was because blacks were challenging their Southern culture of unquestionable white supremacy and privilege based on race. That is not the same as blacks racially besmirching other blacks with groundless and indefensible accusations simply because they disagree with their beliefs.
Moreover, your rebuttal of my prior post was overwrought with faulty inferences and fallacious analogies (I mean, the Star Parker [whom I actually LIKE] and Allan Keys [whom I did like prior to his ridiculous bid to defeat Baraka Obama] comparison is hilarious in it irrelevance.).
I don’t think so. There was nothing fallacious or faulty about it. I suggest you reread it again for clarity rather than responding with a knee jerk reaction to something you initially viscerally disagreed with. Simply disagreeing with someone does not make them wrong, faulty, or fallacious. Those analogies I made were independent of your comments about self hate and hair. But they were related to this sad behavior of making improvable accusations based on someone’s political disagreement with a particular belief or lifestyle. My point was me not agreeing with Star Parker or Alan Keyes does not make them self loathing Negroes or race traitors. Something I have heard other black people suggest. And I never stated that you did (accuse them of self hatred) –but I have heard them bitterly attacked by other blacks on the grounds of being self hating Uncle Toms. I do not care politically for either one but I have no proof that they hate themselves for being black. An improvable assertion I have heard other blacks hurl at them.
Since my post was a response to your claim of black self hatred –I used them as examples to further my point. So my mentioning them in my post was neither faulty nor fallacious as you have suggested.
If you truly seek to advance as an intellectual,....
I have no intentions nor desires to be an intellectual. So I have no idea where you got that from. I just enjoy posting my opinions whether pro or con like everyone else. No intellectual fantasies or aspirations here. Sorry.
I recommend that you consider ASKING the basis of one’s position BEFORE you attempt to refute it.
There was nothing to ask! You posted and I responded. Why is it necessary for me to ask you anything beyond what you posted? I’m very surprised that you would say that. There are no steadfast rules here. You take a chance everything you post. Some may agree while others may not. You have disagreed with me before and I had no problems with it. What is there to ask? Just state your point whether you support or disagree with a post and move one. If someone decides to rebuttal what you write (as I did to yours and you did to mine), good! I just believe in keeping it civil as possible and staying on point. Something you have done very well. I appreciate your rebuttal and the points you have made. Event though I don’t completely agree with them I think you did a really good job of stating your case and what you believe.
As I said, I liked your points and questions but you and I will probably have to agree to disagree and move on because even though there was some truth in your argument –it was not the complete and whole truth. I believe a person should not be judged by how they decide to wear their hair as long as the hair is well groomed, clean, mature and well taken care of. The only person that can define beauty and confidence in a hair style (minus self hate), is yourself based on your personal preference.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6031
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 07:58 am: |
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Ntfs,
I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. Because if you're going to respond with 5 - 10 words for every one word I pen, this thread is going to become most unwieldy.
Moreover. It's clear we disagree about the merits, whys and whatfors of PREFERENCE as it pertains to this issue. Thus, because we'll likely never reach a point of mutual understanding on that, there's no point of continuing this debate.
Lastly. I tend to loose the energy for a debate when my opponent waits a +3 days to respond to my last reply. Sorry. |
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