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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 133
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 10:51 pm: | 
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Source: West Virginia University
Released: Mon 31-Jul-2006, 14:40 ET
Political Scientist Co-authors Study on Racial Stereotypes
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After surveying 500 participants of various racial backgrounds, the study found that blacks viewed Latinos much more favorably than Latinos viewed blacks. Nearly three-fourths of blacks felt most or almost all Latinos are hard-working while only 9.2 percent of Latinos felt that most or almost all blacks are hard-working.
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Description
As the political debate over illegal immigration continues, a West Virginia University political scientist has co-authored a study showing one effect of the rising Latino populations in the United States – increased stereotypes.
Full Article
Newswise — As the political debate over illegal immigration continues, a West Virginia University political scientist has co-authored a study showing one effect of the rising Latino populations in the United States – increased stereotypes.
Thomas J. Scotto’s study, “Racial Distancing in a Southern City: Latino Immigrants’ Views of Black Americans,” will appear in the August issue of the Journal of Politics. In it he suggests that the influx of immigration to the South has sparked an increase in racial tension, particularly between Latinos and blacks.
While previous research has reported findings on interactions between whites and minorities, research on interminority group issues of prejudice and stereotyping is limited, making this study of particular interest.
“Race relations between African-Americans and whites have always been a defining aspect of southern politics,” Scotto explained. “However, the 1990s brought changes to the black-white power structure as Latinos made their presence known.”
Durham, N.C., was chosen as the city of focus because of the pre-existing black and white communities and the rise in the Latino population from 1.3 percent in 1990 to 8.6 percent in 2000. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, an estimated 53 percent of the growth in the Latino population is the result of immigration.
“We were interested in how the Latino community viewed the established African-American and white populations and how these established communities viewed Latinos, many of whom recently immigrated,” Scotto said. “Our questions focused on whether Latinos held negative stereotypes of African-Americans, whether the amount of time spent in the community would mitigate these stereotypes, and whether Latinos felt that they had more in common with white or African-American residents.”
After surveying 500 participants of various racial backgrounds, the study found that blacks viewed Latinos much more favorably than Latinos viewed blacks. Nearly three-fourths of blacks felt most or almost all Latinos are hard-working while only 9.2 percent of Latinos felt that most or almost all blacks are hard-working.
“We found higher levels of education and contact with African-Americans in a social setting reduced the stereotyping,” Scotto said. “Although such a finding makes us hopeful for the future of Latino-African American relations in the South, our results also indicate that it is a relationship that will not simply develop magically over time. This is because the length of time a Latino was in the country did not significantly reduce the stereotypes the individual had toward African-Americans.”
Scotto, who has a doctorate from Duke University, teaches courses on American politics and research methods and statistics in WVU’s Eberly College of Arts and Sciences. The assistant professor specializes in American and Canadian public opinion.
The study was co-authored by faculty members from Duke University, University of Chicago, University of Connecticut, St. Augustine’s College and University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Funded by the Ford Foundation, the study is available online at http://journalofpolitics.org/art68_3.html#a7.
© 2006 Newswise. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/522357/ |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2562
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 10:58 pm: |
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LMFAO!!!!!!!
the study found that blacks viewed Latinos much more favorably than Latinos viewed blacks. Nearly three-fourths of blacks felt most or almost all Latinos are hard-working while only 9.2 percent of Latinos felt that most or almost all blacks are hard-working.
HA! HA!
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 137
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 01:35 am: |
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Paper:
Racial Distancing in a Southern City: Latino Immigrants’ Views of Black Americans: http://journalofpolitics.org/files/68_3/McClain.pdf |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5608
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 03:57 am: |
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Kola,
I wager Black foks view virtually ALL other people more favorably than do they us. That's for us both a blessing and a curse. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1440
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 01:52 pm: |
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Interesting...
I can't say that it means anything to me. I wonder which socalled Latinos [chicano, mexican, argintine, puerto rican?]were involved in the study? From which parts of the country did these Latinos derive [northeast, west, south west]? And the age [teenagers, 45 year olds] and length of time these socalled "latinos" have been in the U.S.[five years, ten, twenty]? And finally, what percentage of the socalled Latino population made up the 500 people surveyed [15 of 200, 50 of 200]?
All of this matters...that the survey only involved 500 people is enough for me to disqualify its findings... |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1365
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 02:03 pm: |
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Amen Yukio!
As I have said all along, you can have certain factors weigh your survey heavily toward a decided outcome by selecting your test group accordingly. And you can also negate the worthiness of your study of the targeted subject this way as well... |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 367
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 02:25 pm: |
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North Carolina?
What about New York City?
There aren't any REAL Latinos in North Carolina--just a bunch of brainwashed, braindead Tio Tomas spic cholos who suck whitey's penga for pesos. They don't count.
Oh, yeah, and this is to Kola: |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 368
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 02:28 pm: |
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And again, as for the study, I think it's just some more right-wing, neo-liberal-conservative bullshit to further drive wedges between blacks and latinos, who dislike each other to begin with. Where I'm from, black Americans have little, if anything to say about the Latinos, except the word "spic," which they throw at me, because they think I'm Latino. So that just goes to show you. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1207
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 02:48 pm: |
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Yukio, I think most of your questions are answered in the journal article. As for its representativeness, it does not appear that it is meant to represent Black and Latino populations from across the US. The investigators are from NC, and the sample is taken from their area. (This is typical of much university research: Out of necessity it often involves participants from your own "back yard.")
Academic research is always a trade-off between different factors, and most researchers recognize the limitations of what they are able to uncover. For instance, in the closing paragraphs these authors say, "What do these findings mean for Southern politics and the politics of race? We must be cautious in drawing broad conclusions about the future politics of the South from a one-Southern city study with a small survey sample. Yet our findings are suggestive of possible patterns that might be exhibited in other parts of the South and implicative of future trends."
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2567
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 02:52 pm: |
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I live in California where we have the LARGEST concentration of latinos in the country. The state population is now 60% latino and all of the SIGNS, government forms, court documents in Los Angeles County...are in both English and SPANISH.
And like anyone else who lives in S. California----though I have close Latino friends, as were mentioned in my autobiography during Thanksgiving at Kola's----the overall attitude among the LATINO MAJORITY here is that "blacks" are inferior, lazy, stupid, morally bankrupt and need to breed out.
How Yukio can blatantly ignore the history of African people in the Latino nations----is again suspect.
These people have historically hated, denied and bred out their African forefathers---and like any other group (ie. mulattos)---they mainly LOVE BLACK PEOPLE when their numbers are in a minority. Once they reach a majority--their true thoughts come out.
Latinos love to have sex and dance with Black people---but does that really constitute a BOND?
What I notice...is that BLACKS kiss up to Latinos. Endeavor to learn their language---hell, take on "Ramirez" and "Rodriguez" as last names. LOOK AT BEYONCE---she breaks her ass trying to look like a Latin.
There are two American Indians in my valley who constantly refer to "niggers"---"the niggers"---when they're at the Mexican Market, but Black people around here don't mind.
They tell me I'm hearing things.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2568
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 02:58 pm: |
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And, yes, I recently had a latino boyfriend. A Cuban-Spaniard. And HIS FAMILY was as racist as any white family...they live in San Fernando Valley, California....and Eneddio himself made "snide" comments about Black Men that let me know that while it's OK to fuck an African woman---he saw Black Men as "inferior" stock, and though I can't prove it---he probably thought I was LUCKY to be getting HIM as a prize.
It didn't phase me, because I knew GOING IN what to expect---and I also meant to use him for my own needs, which I did, and find me a black man when one came along--which I did.
Black people need to stop being blind.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5630
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 03:11 pm: |
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Kola,
I agree. Look. I have enjoyed many good friends with Latinos over the course of my life. But when the cuttings to the quick, those foks (and pretty much everyone else BUT us) look out for their OWN.
And, really, that's only NATURAL.
They have a shared skin, blood, language, history, religion, etc. And they are NOT going to casually put that aside to become a part of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Push Coalition. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2571
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 03:24 pm: |
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ABM--you said it all.
I just can't understand this thing in Black people where they are ALWAYS searching for some "outside group" to unite with and be loyal to.
Black folks HATE to see too many blacks congregated in one place---or only black men and black women TOGETHER. I tell you it's slave and colonialist acculturation---more than half our people are "niggerstock" from hundreds of years of it. We CAN'T unite--even if we wanted to. We see blacks united as unnatural--as trouble.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1441
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 03:41 pm: |
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Kola Boof:
I wish you would stop putting words in my mouth. You wrongly assume that your thoughts are universally logical, universally reasonable. I have considered the history of people of African descent in spanish colonized nations, and we still come with away with different conclusion.
Fall back or step up your analysis!
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 371
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 03:41 pm: |
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Kola: I just can't understand this thing in Black people where they are ALWAYS searching for some "outside group" to unite with and be loyal to.
Black folks HATE to see too many blacks congregated in one place---or only black men and black women TOGETHER. I tell you it's slave and colonialist acculturation---more than half our people are "niggerstock" from hundreds of years of it. We CAN'T unite--even if we wanted to. We see blacks united as unnatural--as trouble.
Schakspir: nope. It's just the big-mouth liberal intellectuals who keep talking about "blacks and hispanics"--the rest of us could give a shit about beaners. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5632
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 03:46 pm: |
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Yukio,
With all dude respect, when one REALLY and HONESTLY considers how the issue of COLOR - not "race" but COLOR - has played out over this country, continent, hemisphere and WORLD for over the last 2,500 years (back to, say, the epoch of Alexander the Great), I think KOLA makes the more valid and persuasive argument. |
Serenasailor
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 667
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 06:22 pm: |
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The Black men out here are very stupid and colorstruck and will worship any non-black woman. That is where the resentment in Latino men come from. However, Latino men see nothing wrong with harrassing a BW. And they think that BW love to be sexually harrassed by them. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1443
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 06:48 pm: |
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ABM:
(1) With all [due?] respect, I haven't made an argument that is related to her argument, so how could one discern which is more valid and persuasive?
(2) In fact, I was talking about the limitations of the report's findings, as the report itself and even Yvettep too stated [not whether or not socalled Latinos believe black folks are assidious or if blacks always love other folk, etc...].
(3) When I say step up your analysis, I mean provide more than anecdotal comments about what you see in your state. If she is going to evaluate me, then she should comment on what I have actually stated, NO? My comments pertain to age, a non-homogenizing notion of Latino, differences in state socalled black and socalled latino relations, length of residency, etc...all of us have socalled latino friends and what if I say mine are pro-black and you say something different, and Kola's position is in the middle, and Cynique's is similar to mine...what should we conclude?
Again, I'm talking about the survey...what I thought the thread is about!
If she wants to comment on related issues and not what I am talking about, she and whoever should leave my name out of their post!
Concerning your comments:
when one REALLY and HONESTLY considers how the issue of COLOR - not "race" but COLOR - has played out over this country, continent, hemisphere and WORLD for over the last 2,500 years (back to, say, the epoch of Alexander the Great), I think KOLA makes the more valid and persuasive argument.
I would disagree with you [and I guess her too]. I would say RACE first and then COLOR.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 147
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 06:58 pm: |
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Yvette: "Yukio, I think most of your questions are answered in the journal article."
Yeah Yukio. And there's a copy under "Paper" in my August 01, 2006 - 01:35 am post. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2573
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 07:09 pm: |
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Yukio,
It seems to me---via common sense---that if these people are coming from nations that have historically held bitter Caste systems with regard to color (point being the treatment of Indian and darker latinos by white latinos; not to mention treatment of blacks)--then it's safe to assume that many of those attitudes are EMBEDDED and have been showing themselves across the nation...on every level of "encounter" betwixt blacks and latinos, just as between latinos and whites.
What I SEE with the naked eye (though I realize you discount the words/intuition of mothers)...is that everyone has a certain level of "TOLERANCE" that is afforded to blacks depending upon where their own place in the White Power Structure is.
For instance---a dark Mexican woman with a flat ass, bad teeth and a dumpy figure may have no problem accepting a Black man as her husband and "task"--so long as she can fulfill the edict that all "decent women" are chosen for marriage. A Mexican man will also enjoy drinking, dancing and fucking every "hot chocolate" in sight--but when we go deeper into the psyche of these people---we find untold evidence of their belief that they are just naturally superior, better. And by giving them POWER in our own communities, we are allowing what no other group would ever allow--outsiders to dictate how we see OURSELVES.
That remains my point---and this study BACKS UP my point---as most studies do.
I have no problem loving, fellowshipping with outside groups....but I abhorr the rampant "slave mentality" in so many blacks that makes it almsot detrimental to us, because people like you cannot recognize that we need boundaries and standards that protect our own interests----AND because "intellectuals" like you--cannot acknowledge that as the product of a slave culture, you've never had boundaries and standards---ONLY THE WHITE PEOPLE HAVE.
I have learned that people love you/respect you/honor your friendship---when you have your own world and don't give a fuck about theirs.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1444
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 07:09 pm: |
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Tonya:
I saw that...I haven't read it! It is too long for me to read online. But I will skim it and let you know briefly what I think. For now, what Yvette's post states seems enough for me:
"What do these findings mean for Southern politics and the politics of race? We must be cautious in drawing broad conclusions about the future politics of the South from a one-Southern city study with a small survey sample. Yet our findings are suggestive of possible patterns that might be exhibited in other parts of the South and implicative of future trends."
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 07:49 pm: |
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OK...I have skimmed it. it is interesting...and not a bad study. it does show that most of the Latinos are mexican and then central american...very few from the Spanish Caribbean [larger black latin population]. Also, the majority of the Latino respondents had been in the country for very little time...[in the northeast, at least, blacks and puerto ricans get along quite well, domicans and puerto ricans do not, and puerto ricans and mexicans do not; also look at the different reasons why Miami Cubans and Mexicans in Durham are different...interesting, no?]
Concerning the color issue...the study did not address this exactly, but I am sure that race, color, nationality and especially econommics are responsible for relations between socalled latinos and blacks in durham.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 08:05 pm: |
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Kola
It seems to me---via common sense---that if these people are coming from nations that have historically held bitter Caste systems with regard to color (point being the treatment of Indian and darker latinos by white latinos; not to mention treatment of blacks)--then it's safe to assume that many of those attitudes are EMBEDDED and have been showing themselves across the nation...on every level of "encounter" betwixt blacks and latinos, just as between latinos and whites.
Good assumption...no disagreement here.
Kola:
What I SEE with the naked eye (though I realize you discount the words/intuition of mothers [poor assumption on your part])...is that everyone has a certain level of "TOLERANCE" that is afforded to blacks depending upon where their own place in the White Power Structure is.
OK
Kola:
For instance---a dark Mexican woman with a flat ass, bad teeth and a dumpy figure may have no problem accepting a Black man as her husband and "task"--so long as she can fulfill the edict that all "decent women" are chosen for marriage. A Mexican man will also enjoy drinking, dancing and fucking every "hot chocolate" in sight--but when we go deeper into the psyche of these people---we find untold evidence of their belief that they are just naturally superior, better. And by giving them POWER in our own communities, we are allowing what no other group would ever allow--outsiders to dictate how we see OURSELVES.
This is interesting and reasonable...[though I would make some modifications to your points].
That remains my point---and this study BACKS UP my point---as most studies do.
Actually, the study doesn't prove your point. Color is not even engageed in a sustained way in this study, Kola. It has more to do with the factors that I questioned, in addition to political economy. Reread it!
I have no problem loving, fellowshipping with outside groups....but I abhorr the rampant "slave mentality" in so many blacks that makes it almsot detrimental to us, because people like you cannot recognize that we need boundaries and standards that protect our own interests----AND because "intellectuals" like you--cannot acknowledge that as the product of a slave culture, you've never had boundaries and standards---ONLY THE WHITE PEOPLE HAVE.
Again, what comments have I made that would lead you to these conclusions?
You post and post and use my name and I aint said anything related to your comments...and you nothing that are related to mine....
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 7 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 08:35 pm: |
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Yukio you and I know where each other stands on ANY 3rd WORLD related issue going years back when I tried to befriend you.
I'm not against the "theory" of what you envision.
My problem with you (and anything you say) is that you fail to committ your leadership exclusively to BLACK people--and because you fail to understand what I mean when I cry to you that I am..."tired of being the mule of the world"....I am sick of having "educated boys" like YOU for a son.
What you envision---a blanket solidarity between the entire "colored" world is not wrong---but you put THAT WORLD before our own, which makes it impossible for THOSE folks to respect us--which in turn keeps us in a cycle of low end tobacco/cotton picking.
The POPE goes to speak in Puerto Rico and all the "Black Africans" have to stand in the BACK of the church----what kind of shit is that?
Nobody wants to be down with any broke ass niggas who hate their own mama.
And since you're always INSISTING that everyone can be "Black"---and that you're so "Black"---then WHEN in the fuck are you....A MALE (the one responsible for leading us)....going to do something FOR BLACKS and stop trying to canoe two boats at the same time!?
Can just one of you dick-sceptors be born with a STRATEGY that benefits BLACKS for a change?
You are not doing my bidding. I don't even know why you were born.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 11:43 am: |
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Kola:
Apparently, you and I dont know where eachother stand.
I have NEVER said that I "put THAT WORLD before our own." I have never said this, neither in this thread nor any other.
YOU ARE A LIAR
The problem lies with you, Kola. You read what you want to read.
You are a liar, spreading lies.
Everyone can be black? When have I said this? LIAR! SPREADING MORE LIES! Either you are illiterate or you are a liar...I'll stick with latter!
Save the mother African rubbish for those sycophants that don't know any better, Kola!
Save that for the children you have physically birthed!
Of course I am of African ancestry, but I aint foolish to follow you because your African! That dumb!
Which Mother should I follow...those that sold their own in West Africa during the Middle Passage or you who would break up families that recognize themselves as black because some of them do not fit your color standards?
I don't follow misguided Africans, I follow people with a common political beliefs, which includes Africans and a wide variety of individuals. This is true. And when there is disagreement, then I follow my heart and beliefs not a tyrant with black supremacist rhetoric.
You don't represent Africans or black people, you represent ya damn self! LOL! Your voice of one of many African perspectives, so which is right? Which mother and father should I follow...
Clearly, if this mother rhetoric is nonsensical...
The fact that you have the nerve to say, "You are not doing my bidding. I don't even know why you were born" is telling of your tyranny and selfishness.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5637
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 01:19 pm: |
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Yukio,
Funny. Everything you've expressed here seems plausible and reasonable...until I observe throughout the world and history the relative COLOR of those who oppress and those who are oppressed.
If you look on virtually ANY part of this PLANET, the BLACKER you are, the WORSE you take it up the a$$.
The issue of one’s alleged RACE is a red herring juxtaposed to the real issue of COLOR.
Does race really matter when if a person who has a Black ancestor can pass for and live as a de facto White person?
Why is Central and South America that teem with very Black people dominated by very WHITE (and a few Asian) looking people?
Why is there NO mentioning of the fact that many of the great liberators of Mexico were very BLACK men?
Why is it that 19th Century Greek and Italian American immigrants were initially considered "Latin" but later BECAME "White"?
Why are Whiter-looking Cuban refuges welcomed with open arms into America while their Blacker fellow expatriates ignored, shunned and castigated?
Why did South African Apartheid allow for a “Colored” class of people betwixt White Afrikaner and Black African?
What OTHER than COLOR could possible explain all the confusing, duplicitous dynamics above?
This multi-color political position of yours is greatly buoyed by virtue of your being AMERICAN. Were you very Black and neither a citizen nor resident of America, you would more clearly divine that there is much LESS empathy for your perspective and your PERSON throughout nearly ALL of the world.
At some point, Yukio, Black foks had better start to love the concept of their being Black not just as some ambiguous politician machination, but as a tangible, physical and hereditary right and privileged END unto itself.
Because if you can not do that, all of that socio-political demagoguery will ultimately be for not...as it, thus far, has always ever REALLY been. |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 373
Registered: 12-2005
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 02:03 pm: |
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We need to organize black people who can think, and black people who are politically advanced. A lot of Black people in this country don't know how to think. Just because somebody is black doesn't mean they are going to be your natural political allies. Fuck the black reactionaries and conservatives, people like Kola Boof, who think that there is some magical bond between each and every blue-black African that makes them natural allies against lighter-skinned people. That's bullshit. If that were the case, then Armstrong Williams, Alan Keyes, and Clarence Thomas would be in the revolutionary vanguard to free all black people the world over.
And Abm, to answer all your questions, it's because the world is run by reactionary honkies. Nuff said. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 04:45 pm: |
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ABM:
So what are we talking about now?
I could ask as many and more questions where the answer would be race [though I could answer your questions and still focus less on race and more on color]. So whats your point?
I am for black people and third world people. That is not "multicultural"...It is called coalition building. As I have stated elsewhere, you join with you have positions in common and separate when in conflict...white folk have been doing it forever...[The Scramble and Partition of Africa was a case of cooperation and coalition and the past world wars have been cases of white conflict].
If you look on virtually ANY part of this PLANET, the BLACKER you are, the WORSE you take it up the a$$.
This is true. But is solidarity based on color sufficient to change this? And what do you do with Africa? Is black unity the issue? Is color the issue? No...its neocolonialism, greed, ethnic conflict, etc...when you look at history you see color and a variety of forces that contribute to conflict...and in all of this mess, you have to wade through the bullshit and create strong solidarities, build coalitions with like minded people based on their politics not on color or race! To do so does not mean that you lose your own group's integrity! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5656
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:07 pm: |
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Yukio,
Fuhk "calition building". Really. Fuhk that shyt's with a jagged razor dyck.
Black man. Build YOURSELF, your WOMAN, your CHILDREN and your COMMUNITY, my brotha.
Believe me, you do THAT and all the Power and the Glory of GOD Almighty himself will be yours to wield.
But if you DON'T do that, there's nothing but HELL waiting for you. All you have to do is HONESTLY look about you, and you'll see glaring evidence of what I mean. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2602
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:13 pm: |
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ABM...you are like rain after a season of drought.
If we had a race of men like you I would bow at your feet and cook, clean and take dick---and HAPPILY keep my mouth shut---all the day long.
GOD BLESS YOUR SOUL!!
I wish that you would read my autobiography.
|
Savant
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 84
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:16 pm: |
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Abm, in the same way that Italian and Greek immigrants became more solidly "white" within the context of the U.S. (this phenomenon occurred in order to deflect and blunt incipient class conflict/tensions by extending the rubric of white privilege to white ethnics who traded in old world regional identities for an overarching "white" identity) now white supremacy once again sets the agenda by playing the old "switcheroo" and extending white privilege to certain "biracials", light-skinned black folks and darkskinned black folks who are aligned with white supremacy on an ideological level. In order to render this seachange effective, the "one-drop rule" has to be rendered null and void, deemed hopelessly passe and non-progressive so that the new "biracialism" can take hold. The objectives of the game remain the same, of course: the maintenance and concentration of power in white hands on a global level. In order to maintain white hegemony, white supremacy is willing to concede a modicum of white privilege to a small sector of select blacks/ethnics/biracials, etc. who will comprise a managerial elite. In the same way that once despised ethnic groups such as the Irish became "white", due to the demands of white supremacy during the trajectory of chattel slavery, industialism and the expansion of capitalism, white supremacy will once again "restructure" and reconstitute "race" according to its needs during the 21st/22nd century. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2604
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:27 pm: |
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If what you just wrote is what you believe SAVANT, then why don't you instruct "Blacks"---to get Blacker???
THAT would nullify the whole situation.
My Arab father married a Charcoal woman because he wanted "Black sons"---who would RESTORE the power of Black People to the Kolbookek Family and disrupt the Arabic Hold.
It greatly disturbs me that you have not acknowledged the fact that we have the power to RE-UNIFY through our color. And will now HAVE to.
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Savant
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 85
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:28 pm: |
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Yukio:Which Mother should I follow...those that sold their own in West Africa during the Middle Passage or you who would break up families that recognize themselves as black because some of them do not fit your color standards?
A cautionary statement if ever there was one, Yukio. Not only will this new "trend" break up families but will incite widespread, internecine hatred/antagonism and ultimately bloodshed, resulting in the destruction of black folks en masse. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 159
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:31 pm: |
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Sadly, nobody SINCERELY wants to unite with what the word perceives as losers. They will act like they are your friends until they finish using you. Afterwards they'll take their spot as the next group of people to oppress you. This has happened to black people time and time again.... (The definition of insanity…so it's not only sad, it's sick.)
I agree with Abm: "Build YOURSELF, your WOMAN, your CHILDREN and your COMMUNITY, my brotha."
All else will fall into place. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2605
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:33 pm: |
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Oh so now---Yukio and Savant are telling the LIE that West African "WOMEN" sold your people into slavery.
But have no knowledge of the legendary "Fire Witch"---or the fact the 7 out of 10 African leaders whose armies rose up against the Slave Trade---were led by West African QUEENS, not Kings.
Please, Yukio and Savant---explain this DESPERATE bullshit LIE.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2606
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:38 pm: |
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For those who don't know:
500 years ago---when WEST AFRICAN KINGS began selling their own people into slavery---those "African Women" (Queens, Priestess, Wives) who spoke against it were accused of "male bashing"---because they disagreed with the GREED and practices of the men.
The situation became so bad with African women OPPOSING the men's "money making"-----that these women were branded "FIRE WITCHES" and were bannished from society. Often "burned alive", "buried alive" or driven into the dens of wild animals.
But you will NEVER hear a Black American bastard like YUKIO or SAVANT relate that true story to their children----because they're too AFRAID to know the truth.
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Savant
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 86
Registered: 09-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:40 pm: |
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Kola, what has black folks getting "blacker" or "whiter" going to negate a trend predicated on skin tone/complexion/hue as the arbiter of blackness?
Our reunification will take place on the basis of our undying commitment and love for our people, AS THEY ARE--an unconditional love for black people, regardless of hue, recognizing that it is not our phenotype that constitutes our "blackness" but our shared history, our culture, kinship, blood.
I seek a "blackening" of the spirit, Kola---a blackening of the spirit that unites the totality of my people.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2607
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:47 pm: |
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Excuses, excuses SAVANT.
Although, I do love MUCH of what you have to say.
I wish more thought you like.
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Savant
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 88
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:52 pm: |
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Kola, in your eagerness to attack those who take an opposing stance, you do yourself an injustice by attributing to me things that I do not profess. I referenced Yukio's point regarding the breaking up of families. In no way am I stating or cosigning the belief that African women were complicit in the selling of our people in the transatlantic slave trade.
And Kola, not only African women were opposed to the slave trade but many African kings, also. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2608
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:54 pm: |
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In no way am I stating or cosigning the belief that African women were complicit in the selling of our people in the transatlantic slave trade.
Then you should have removed that part and just attacked "KOLA".
As well---I have written books on African KINGS fighting against the slave trade.
I know exactly what we have done, good and bad, Savant.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2609
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 06:58 pm: |
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And, incidentally, the FACT IS---that more African QUEENS (by 70%) fought against the Transatlantic Slave Trade---as more Kings were part of the "circle" benefitting from it.
Queen TinkaTeker II (whose sons were some of the first slaves of N.Y. and Vermont) was burned at the stake for her war against the slave trade, and I'm going to make a movie about her.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4865
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:07 pm: |
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Words, words, words. Words do not eludicate. They obliterate. Black people can't even agree among themselves what constitutes blackness. And if a consensus is ever reached, it will become increasingly apparent that the United States of America is not the natural habitat of a monolithic black presence. Such a sect will have to relocate to a place where outside factors won't seduce or corrupt or comprormise. And when is somebody going to explain to me why dark skin is so universally rejected, why an aversion to it transcends every ethnicity and nationality and race? Why is it so easy for white people to impose their standards on others??? Is color-consciousness a residual instinct that has its origins in the phenomenon that occurs in nature wherein the animals that thrive are the ones who take on the appearance of their environment thus eliminating their risk for extinction?? Those are my words, words, words. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 391
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:07 pm: |
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Abm: Fuhk "calition building". Really. Fuhk that shyt's with a jagged razor dyck.
Black man. Build YOURSELF, your WOMAN, your CHILDREN and your COMMUNITY, my brotha.
Believe me, you do THAT and all the Power and the Glory of GOD Almighty himself will be yours to wield.
But if you DON'T do that, there's nothing but HELL waiting for you. All you have to do is HONESTLY look about you, and you'll see glaring evidence of what I mean.
Schakspir: Abm, politics makes strange bedfellows. Blacks have to work from within...and from without. We are not an island unto ourselves. We need to get involved with world politics. It's not enough for the "Black Man" to just "build himself" and his "community". We are not fucking GERMANS. We have to be tactful and make alliances on this planet, even with, God forbid, people who dislike us. That is the nature of politics, sir. The last thing we need to do after "building" ourselves is to turn into Israel!
No, I do not advocate this ridiculous kind of Afrikan-centric chauvanism of the Kola Boof kind, which, if done correctly, could actually make(in the future) oppressors of US. Take a good look at Israel. Look at Europe. Or America. Black people can't afford to be chauvanistic scum-bags like Caucasians, or the Chinese. We need to play our cards right, build a civilization that is more humane, more superior and more literate than anything the white man attempted to do(or our ancestors attempted to do). Of course, this does NOT mean we should relinquish the keys to our kingdom to somebody else. It should be our kingdom. But we should NOT run our kingdom the same way the Jews, or the Christians or the Chinese run it--like fools. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 160
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:09 pm: |
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Savant,
". . .in the same way that Italian and Greek immigrants became more solidly "white" within the context of the U.S."
WERE THEY FORCED TO DO THIS?
"In the same way that once despised ethnic groups such as the Irish became 'white', due to the demands of white supremacy. . ."
WERE THEY FORCED TO DO THIS?
". . .now white supremacy once again sets the agenda by playing the old "switcheroo" and extending white privilege to certain "biracials", light-skinned black folks and darkskinned black folks who are aligned with white supremacy on an ideological level. . .In order to maintain white hegemony, white supremacy is willing to concede a modicum of white privilege to a small sector of select blacks/ethnics/biracials, etc. who will comprise a managerial elite."
ARE THEY BEING FORCED TO DO THIS.
This is the part that I don't get. You act as if these people are robots with no control over their actions. When you say this, you act like they are innocent. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2611
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:11 pm: |
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CYNIQUE!!!!!! you're BACK!!!! 
Please come back and tell me where to get off.
I miss you so much----and I love you so much. I truly do. I'm going to cry.
I pray that everything's going OK with you and that you have a lot of support right now.
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 392
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:12 pm: |
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I just Googled Queen TinkaTeker, and the only information available comes from AALBC.com. Any books about her--and I don't mean those published by Door of Kush. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2612
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:16 pm: |
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I just Googled Queen TinkaTeker, and the only information available comes from AALBC.com. Any books about her--and I don't mean those published by Door of Kush.
WHICH MEANS?
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2613
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:18 pm: |
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Queen TinkaTeker II ruled in what is now GAMBIA at the palace of Banjul in the 1600's. She drowned 14 Dutch children after her sons "vanished" from playing on the beach.
Her sons became slaves in what is now N.Y. and Vermont and New Hampshire.
I have seen WHOLE books about her in Africa, but none in the U.S.
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 393
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:22 pm: |
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What are the titles of these books? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2614
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:26 pm: |
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How the hell should I know? One is in French (located in the DAKAR library in SENEGAL). Though she ruled in Gambia, most of the books are next door in Senegal. There are 2 in English.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2615
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 07:32 pm: |
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Correction---
Her "children"--5 boys and 3 girls vanished while playing on a stretch of royal beach.
1 of the girls was sold in Georgia and there's no record of what happened to her.
2 of the girls were sold as slaves in Jamaica and Barbados--and gave birth to 2 Mulatto daughters who were then sold in South Carolina.
The boys, all owned by DUTCH, were enslaved in N.Y., Vermont and New Hampshire---all recorded in 1624.
I have a friend, Anossi, who is from Senegal and just telephoned her about it.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5660
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 09:54 pm: |
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Kola: "If we had a race of men like you I would bow at your feet and cook, clean and take dick---and HAPPILY keep my mouth shut---all the day long."
Hahahaha!!!
No you would not. You would sass and defy me, knowing that my fury will awaken that sweet rush of amorous rivers flowing through you. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2622
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 09:56 pm: |
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OK. You know me too well. BUT STILL!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5661
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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Savant: "In order to render this seachange effective, the "one-drop rule" has to be rendered null and void, deemed hopelessly passe and non-progressive so that the new "biracialism" can take hold. The objectives of the game remain the same, of course: the maintenance and concentration of power in white hands on a global level."
Can SOMEBODY in the Chuhch say "AMEN".
All over the globe, White foks are dying off. When you exclude the Arab and African immigrants, you find that Europe has a NEGATIVE rate of population replacement. Even here in America, infertility rates for Caucasian abound.
So you're got dayam RIGHT they're looking to create some new White foks. The biracials will constitute some of this number. As will your Whiter looking Hispanic/Latinos. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5663
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:08 am: |
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Shakspir,
This "coalition" will only mean something when your potential ally genuinely feels he or she NEEDS and would BENEFIT from associating with you.
If you YOURSELF, FAMILY and COMMUNITY are weak, who the hell you're going to ally with? Who will WANT you? WHY would it be in the interest of ANY one to combine his or her resources with man a who does not feed, educate, protect or know where the hell his CHILDREN are (or if he even HAS any)?
AGAIN...make YOU and YOURS strong. Then, what you need will come. Some of such will manifest in the form of others. But MOST of what you need will be born, grow and prevail from WITHIN.
And, forgive me. But I'm beyond the stage where I can fantasize about lofty states of multi-chromatic connectedness you (Yukio and others) appear to allude. That don't much make sense to me when where African Americans have virtually ZERO real wealth, have higher infant mortality rates than many 3rd world countries and nearly 80% single-parent households.
Frankly, I think there's some much more BASIC work that's needed to be done. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1452
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:10 am: |
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ABM:
Fuhk "calition building". Really. Fuhk that shyt's with a jagged razor dyck.
Black man. Build YOURSELF, your WOMAN, your CHILDREN and your COMMUNITY, my brotha.
Assuming that I live in an all black community...then what you say makes sense. But if you live in NYC, for example, where you have many poor people of color who live in the same housing projects, same community, attend the same schools, and lack the same resources then it makes logical sense to build coalitions. As someone else said, blacks have to work within and without...this is what happened in the civil rights movement, the abolition movement...all of these were coalitions!
It is only logical that you build a strong core in the first place. You are assuming that I am saying that one builds coalitions without something to work with in the first place...
Kola:
I didnt know that 70% of African Queens fought against the transatlantic slave trade. Where can I check this myself...
Whatever the case, that they did or did not is not my point...
The point is: Africans do not have the final say on what happens to black people throughout the diaspora. If one was to accept what you say, African Americans should accept anything you say because you are an African woman, from which, according to you, African Americans come from...
Thats rubbish! All you have said is: I'm an African women and you are my children so follow me...what does that have to do with the price in china...what about economics? Politics? Intraracial conflict? IntraAfrican conflict? Are you tell me that just because you are an African women you are bestowed with some special powers and wisdom...cut the crap!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5669
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:39 am: |
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Yukio,
We Black people are much WEAKER as a family and community NOW than we were generations ago. Hell. Foks (including Jews, Feminists, artists, socialists, unions, even friggin, anarchists) were BEGGING to ride the wave of freedom and expression that BLACK foks like Dr. King, Brother Malcolm, Shirley Chisolm and myriad others had championed.
You must accept that there are some stark CONSEQUENCES to our NOT being what we once were.
We simply will NOT be able to engender the caliber of alliances that we might have previously been capable of garnering. Not with our couplings, families, schools and communities in ruins.
And most studies I read assert that American communities are becoming MORE - not less - segregated in recent years. (Certainly our SCHOOLS are.). Honestly. Ask yourself would foks earnestly seek to ally with those they actively seek to avoid and shun.
So, again, I say we MUST look out for and build up our own FIRST. Then we'll be a in a much better position to craft and to leverage in any form of (mostly TEMPORARY) alliance. And we may discover that we're actually capable of much more on our OWN than others would desire that we believe. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 164
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:49 am: |
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...Abm, he's saying, if he don't live in the black community, he don't need to give a shyt.
Yukio: "Assuming that I live in an all black community...then what you say makes sense."
Set his azz straight! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5671
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:01 am: |
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Tonya,
I don't believe that's what Yukio saying. I get the impression he's a more thoughful, empathetic person than that.
Yukio's a smart guy. I learn A LOT from him. And I think he's sincere.
And I'm really am not out to "set his azz straight!"
But I think where he and I have often differed is the "context" in and "perspective" of which certain information were produced and certain phenomena occurred and/or should be interpreted.
Simply: I doubt there's very few facts upon which he and I would disagree. Where, how and why such facts were WROUGHT, is a very DIFFERENT matter, though. |
Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 479
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:04 am: |
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Well, since the (fictitious) term and classification "African American" is a misnomer, the true detractors of that group may well be irrelevant themselves. |
Savant
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 89
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:33 am: |
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Abm: We Black people are much WEAKER as a family and community NOW than we were generations ago. Hell. Foks (including Jews, Feminists, artists, socialists, unions, even friggin, anarchists) were BEGGING to ride the wave of freedom and expression that BLACK foks like Dr. King, Brother Malcolm, Shirley Chisolm and myriad others had championed.
You must accept that there are some stark CONSEQUENCES to our NOT being what we once were.
Exactly. For one thing, back then we weren't bickering and infighting over who among us is or isn't black, "authentic" vs. "inauthentic" or gauging our blackness according to skin tone/complexion. At least back then we were taking each other to task over substantive issues involving political stance/perspectives and theoretical differences. We weren't about the business of dividing the black community according to color gradations.
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Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 260
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:46 am: |
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"And, incidentally, the FACT IS---that more African QUEENS (by 70%) fought against the Transatlantic Slave Trade---as more Kings were part of the "circle" benefitting from it.
Queen TinkaTeker II (whose sons were some of the first slaves of N.Y. and Vermont) was burned at the stake for her war against the slave trade, and I'm going to make a movie about her. "
Kola,
i always beleived that the reason most africans sold thier own is because they didnt know what slavery in america was like....they were under the impression that american slavery was like slavery in africa where a slave was allowed to be educated, allowed to keep his culture, allowed to eat at the same table wiht his owners, allowed to worship as he wished, etc..
so my question is if this is so then how did the african queens know better and know to fight agaisnt it but the majority of the kings didn't and were under the false pretense that american chattel slavery was like african slavery.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5677
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:48 am: |
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Savant,
You should read your history.
Ever heard of "paper bag tests"?
Every looked at old HBCU class photos that included almost entirely WHITE faces?
Ever heard of "passing"?
Heard about about the Howard University's Band coordinator decrying a young woman donning her natural, unstraighten/permed to a cheerleader tryout?
Why are you all hellbent upon trying to act as though there haven't ALWAYS been some forms of color caste systems amongst African Americans foks? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5678
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:55 am: |
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Misty,
Why attempt to rationalize why one human being SOLD another, especially given the seller the one being sold are of the same kind while the buyer is NOT?
And why do we assume that African slavery was any more 'decent' than American slavery? |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 262
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:02 am: |
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ABM,
i heard that type of stuff even happened in the amongst black feminist organizations where they were SUPPOSE to be representing ALL black women and working for the best interest of ALL black owomen.
jsut goes to show no movement is ever perfect....because the members of it will ALWAYS come to the table with their own cultural biases that they've been raised with and usually the ones leading the movement will be the ones who are priviledged.
It's jsut like what happened with white feminist organizations. They were all geared towarss rich white women, while ignoring the issues of poor white women and black women especially.
but what gets me is here we were as black women criticizing white feminist organizations and "the white man" for their racism, and black men for their sexism when we were doing the very same thing to our own BLACK WOMEN.
it seems want of POWER alludes no one |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 167
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:03 am: |
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Abm,
Thanks for the explanation but I was joking, lol.
I like messin’ with Yukio every now & then.
Abm: "I don't believe that's what Yukio saying."
Tonya: I was serious about that part thought (*tehee*)
... cuz that's exactly what I think he was saying. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 263
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:05 am: |
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Misty,
"Why attempt to rationalize why one human being SOLD another, especially given the seller the one being sold are of the same kind while the buyer is NOT?
And why do we assume that African slavery was any more 'decent' than American slavery?"
because facts are jsut that, facts......african slavery was comletely different....yes they both had their evils but africans operated under a very different form of slavery in which the slave was almost part of the family.
african slavey WAS in fact less dehumanizing than american slavery. I'm not attempting to rationalize...simply stating facts. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 264
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:08 am: |
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another way african slavery was different is that you couldnt beat a slave to death |
Savant
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Savant
Post Number: 90
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:18 am: |
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Abm, Beloved...I know well the history of colorism among our people.
The point I'm making is despite these internal problems, we still viewed each other as "colored", "Negro", "Afro-American", "black", etc.
And those of us who were politically conscious (activists, organizers, etc.) and in the so-called vanguard of the struggle were certainly not gauging our "blackness" according to some superficial litmus test of skin tone. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2624
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:25 am: |
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Misty:
so my question is if this is so then how did the african queens know better and know to fight agaisnt it but the majority of the kings didn't and were under the false pretense that american chattel slavery was like african slavery.
KOLA:
It had NOTHING to do with the "severity" of slavery conditions.
Women care more about their children than about MONEY. These people being sold---came from MOTHERS. So African women, naturally, had a completely different perspective.
If you've seen the movie "The Piano Lesson" where Danny Glover's character doesnt' give a shit about keeping a piano that meant so much to his ancestors and is determined to sell it---but Alfre Woodard would rather die than sell it---then you can pretty much GET IT.
NOT ALL AFRICAN MEN were supportive of slavery---MOST WERE NOT---once they knew it existed.
But the African KINGS, men who had been doing TRADING with White "SETTLERS" before the Slave Trade took affect----wanted to be RICHER.
And don't forget that the very first slave trade...in East Africa, Year 700....involved African Kings selling AFRICAN WOMEN (no men) as "slaves".
For hundreds of years in East Africa, only African FEMALES were the export to Asia and Persia and Arabic countries---as slaves. Then gradually, the East Africans began to sell BOYS.
GREED is part of "POWER"---and most of the people who have power are "MEN", regardless of "color".
This is why I have such a problem with Black Americans saying the White Man is "the devil" and that the Black men is merely a victim.
MEN--regardless of race--are in a competition for World Dominance. Black men used the slave trade as well as White and Arab men----but the WHITE MAN GOT THE "GUN" and BUILT SHIPS.
All men are capable of the same evil or the same goodness.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2625
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:35 am: |
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Incidentally...
African slavery was different in that it had a TIME LIMIT.
You were a slave for 5 years or 10 years--whatever the agreement (or crime) was.
In Africa---the slave could MARRY into the family.
Several African QUEENS started out as "slaves"---King Tut's grandmother (Nubian mother of Queen Tiye, who was also Nubian) is a good example, as KINGS could marry their favorite bed wench and make her QUEEN.
"Dancing Girls"/Concubines were the beauties---rarely the QUEENS.
For instance, in Africa--Oprah Winfrey would probably be a "QUEEN"...while Naomi Campbell would be a "concubine". The "QUEEN" had a lot of criteria to meet that involved the army, her ability to navigate terrain AND she had to be a Scholar of the "Totem" and "Stool".
It's not like t.v. where the QUEENS are gorgeous beauties----that's bullshit. The QUEENS very almost never beautiful. The concubines were.
There were several African warrior slaves who married the Princess daughters of KINGS.
A poor African could go to a rich African and say---"Can I be your slave for 5 years?" Often, this is how they married into or got EMPLOYMENT from a wealthy family, is by starting as a slave.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5684
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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Okay. I could be wrong here. As I'll I should do more reading about African Black-on-Black slavery.
But my view of slavery is where someone is FORCED to work, bred, breed and even die wholly by the leave of another.
To me, temporarily working for someone to facilitate some economic, political and social end is NOT slavery. To me, that's more what the Europeans called "Indentured Servitude".
Is the prevailing and generally accepted view that African slavery was more like being an indentured servant? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2630
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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That's EXACTLY what it was, ABM. But White Scholars have written it as "slavery"---mainly because, like Female Circumcision, it all depends on WHERE IN AFRICA it took place as to the "DEGREE" that it was handled.
Some societies were more brutal than others---for instance, in West Africa, if your uncle committed a crime and died without paying---then YOU (especially if you were female) could be made a slave to atone for his sins.
But only in North Africa was "African slavery" LIFE-LONG, and the slaves were owned by Berbers or Arabs---though they could "advance" to higher positions---ie. leader of the Army or "Govenor's/General's Concubine".
It is widely known, however, that "African slavery" was totally different from White/African slavery in the Americas---it was more akin to Arabic and Greek slavery whereby the slaves could "advance".
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2631
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 11:09 am: |
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ABM...right now today, in "tribal" GHANA....there is a town called Gnani.
It's a concentration camp for "witches".
Basically, African "feminists" or women who claim they were "raped" are kept there as slaves to make government products. They are proclaimed to be "WITCHES" and separated from the general society.
Back in the slave trade days---African "mothers", often the "Queen Mother", who spoke against "the Kings" were branded witches and banished from society. Look up "Fire Witches" of West Africa.
That's why I hate HIP HOP CULTURE--it's just a repeat of so many things. And the way Alice Walker is "demonized" for simply telling the truth.
How could any black man read "Same River Twice" or "In Search of Our Mother's Gardens" and not love this woman!??? But she is a "witch" for telling truth about men.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5686
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Kola,
Thanks for the information. I will read about the African "fire witches" and other facets of African slavery.
I think the combination of Walker's criticism of Black men...COMBINED with her marrying and reproducing with some White dude...COMBINED with her current lesbianism result in WHY many are suspicious of her. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:17 pm: |
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You forgot:
...COMBINED with a general anti-intellectualism in many Black communities... |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2633
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:29 pm: |
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Thank you Yvette.
ABM,
Many could argue that Black men's intense hatred of themselves---which projects and manifests itself in their bitter loathing of black women----is what drives the very sensitive/intelligent ones like Walker into the arms of White men, and finally----to women.
If you notice, because you are able to know what I'm about (and I'm extremely similar to Walker)---you're able to appreciate and LIKE me, even though, I have been desperate enough to have White men and WANTED to be lesbian--to escape from men's emotional, psychological abuse.
I believe that Walker truly wants to LOVE and be accepted by Black men----and that this is the biggest message in "The Color Purple" and other works that Black men dismiss as "male bashing".
These men are so stupid that they can't see that the BIGGEST BASHERS---are the ones who just wanted to be loved by their fathers, brothers and black men. Walker has enormous love for Black men that was rejected--from the very beginning.
|
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5689
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:33 pm: |
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Yvettep,
I agree that's a factor. I think, however, you'd concur that intellectuals such as Cornel West, bell hooks, Michael Eric Dyson, Toni Morisson and the like do NOT suffer the same type and degree of public criticism and consternation from Black people that Walker does. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5690
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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Yvettep,
Even Kola, who can be more condemnatory of Black men in a DAY than Walker has been in a decade prides herself in the amount of appreciation and affection that she receive many male patrons.
Most Black men KNOW we need to clean our shyt up (and spray some Lysol over that gotdayam left over stain). The results of the recent Washington Post study proves that.
But when you appear to wholly condemn and reject all Black men, at some point many of them - and the WOMEN who love them - will abandon you. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5691
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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Kola: "Many could argue that Black men's intense hatred of themselves---which projects and manifests itself in their bitter loathing of black women----is what drives the very sensitive/intelligent ones like Walker into the arms of White men, and finally----to women."
Of course you know very SIMILARLY faulty arguments can/have been made about Black MEN who sought the bosum of White women.
Was it really any less justifiable when Richard Wright married Becky than when Walker eloped with Opie?
I will concede, though, I'm not NEARLY as acquainted with Walker as I am with you. Thus, I imagine it possible that if I knew more about her, I might think better of her.
But, really, at this point, I seriously DOUBT Alice Walker could give a dayam about what I and the remaining 15 million African American males think and feel about her. And I'm as okay with that as I am sure she is. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1213
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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ABM, check out "Alice Walker: A Life." I did say "combined with" because I do not think the anti-intellectualism is the only factor (or even the main factor). But I do maintain it is an important one.
I do not have a clear sense how many in the Black community are aware of who bell hooks is or what her work is about. I'd guess, though, that if folks are put off by Alice Walker, they'd be downright terrified of Sister hooks!
In general, can you point to many Black intellectuals who (1) are not male, (2) are not ministers, former ministers, or trained in Black relligion, and (3) do not write largely on Black popular culture or sports who are greatly embraced by Black folk? |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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Kola, others: I am almost finished with "Leopold's Ghost." I have only been able to read it in small doses, because it has been breaking my heart. (And also, I hav been busy with dissertation writing. LOL) There is so much to say about this book, but one thing it makes clear is what you were alluding to above: The idea of how practices already in place by Africans were exploited, magnified, and completely taken over by (in this case) Belgians colonizing the Congo.
An example: Apparently there was a practice already in place in the region of cutting off the right hands of those you had vanquished in battle. The Belgians took this and turned it into a punishment for not bringing in enough ivory, and later rubber. Or for not providing European officials with enough food. Or to punish villages where folks tried to protest or revolt. Or for sport... |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 715
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:58 pm: |
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"It's not like t.v. where the QUEENS are gorgeous beauties----that's bullshit. The QUEENS very almost never beautiful. The concubines were. "
So the bust of Queen Nefertiti is not an accurate reflection of what she really looked like?
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2635
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:45 pm: |
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BrownBeauty123,
Queen Nefertiti was a very beautiful woman (although the BUST of her is not a valid depiction of what she looked like).
However Africa had virtually THOUSANDS of Queens.
A scant few were beauties----but the overwhelming majority of "QUEENS" were not----just as the overwhelming majority of European Queens (Victoria, Elizabeth, Ingrid) were/are NOT beautiful. An African Queen had just as much work to do as Queen Elizabeth does.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 2636
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:50 pm: |
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ABM
Even Kola, who can be more condemnatory
of Black men in a DAY than Walker
has been in a decade prides
herself in the amount of appreciation
and affection that she receive
many male patrons.
KOLA:
I wonder why.
LOL!!!
I do have to admit that I have
a LARGE following of Black Male
"fans", who curiously, have
never read one of my books.
It's so frustrating!
|
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1454
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:02 pm: |
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ABM:
You are right. But I take this for granted. That is, the need for strong Black families and communities, with political savy and wealth.
Actually, the studies that I have read say that black and white neighborhoods are segregated, not communities of color...so that if you look at the south bronx, for example, its a question of segregation based on being nonwhite [though it too I have recently learned is being gentrified like Harlem].
At any rate, I don't disagree with you. I just think that strong communties can not be built in isolation of other groups in the same community, indeed same housing projects, from which I am a product.
Now concerning segregation, there is have been a price of socalled integration:
Even though communities of color or black communities may be segregated as you say, they do not have the institutions that they once had during pre-civil rights legislation.
SO that there is a differnce between, on the one hand, segregation during the post-civil rights era. And on the other hand, segregation in the pre-civil rights era. So that in the post-civil rights era, you still have segregated communities, but they are without the black banks, black social service agencies, black professionals that rendered both services and guidances.
I am not saying that the black middle class is the answer[as I am quite critical of the them], but they did provide certain services that black communities are presently without. It says more about the destruction of the black community based on class...this is only natural, however. But it is certainly a problem.
So that what we have is a growing black middle class that distanced and scattered away from poorer black folk... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4869
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:45 pm: |
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So, during the course of this lengthy verbose thread, did anyone mention that no matter how down and out Hispanics, in general, and Mexicans in particular are, they still have pride in who they are? Why? Because they have a country, a language, and a culture. All of which enables even wet-back illegals to be condescending toward the rag tag comglomerate of people who fall under the African American unbrella and who harbor no collective consciousness. Maybe black people should just make their immediate family their nation. Baby-boomers who are moving into the ranks of matriarchs and patriarchs have to become the presidents of their families and set the rules and customs and establish an individual identity in order for the constituency which is populated by their kin to survive in a hostile world. Those who cannot bring this about, will be relegated to the ranks of collateral damage, a fate which ensures that they will be detroyed; if not physically, then mentally. And this is not a visionary approach. Why? Because it describes what is unconsciocusly being done by a growing number of blacks who are maneuvering through America. Instead of what black people need to do, it becomes more viable to focus on what a black person needs to do. It is noble to want to save the race, but it is also a monumental endeavor that becomes lost in the miasma of logistics. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5694
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:53 pm: |
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Yvettep,
I have read much of hooks writing. Again. I as a reasonably intelligent and openminded person do not decry criticism, especially if such is GLARINGLY valid.
I think where it get's tricky for me is when I think ALL there really is for/of me as a race/sex is contempt and fear. At THAT point, I will pretty much archive you into my trusty "Fuhk You!" files (which, admittedly, ABOUNDS!).
I will agree that Black female intellectuals get shortshrift as frequently and for the same reasons that Black women in general get shortshrift if YOU will concur that such is LARGELY self-inflicted.
Kola,
~"...a woman gottah us what she got
to get just what she wants...(HEEEYYY)..."~
--- James Brown's "Hot Pants"
Seriously. I'm sure at least SOME of the brothas who are initially drawn to your ample bosum eventually calm down (at least after a few moments of self-love....hehehehe) and eventually read some of your books. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:03 pm: |
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Very insightful thread! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5695
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:12 pm: |
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Yukio: "But I take this for granted. That is, the need for strong Black families and communities, with political savy and wealth."
Yukio,
How can you offhandedly presume that which simply does not SUFFICIENTLY exist within the Black community? Bruh. I have to think and live within the here/now.
The pre-Civil Rights institutions you aptly refer to were built by Black husband & wives, principals & teachers, doctors & nurses working together. But if they no longer exist, I can't pretend and act as though they do.
I agree we do not and can not live in some fabled 'blackened' vaccum. On this we agree. Where we might deliberate and debate are points of EMPHASIS.
Me. I can't really get to deep into some notion about Black-Mexican alliances given the fact that maybe a THIRD of African American men will acquire criminal records. I just can't see Juan and Julio being much help here.
If anything, those dudes might SUPPORT the current socio-political paradigm given how such might benefit them and their kind, at least economically (Econ Lesson: Fewer Black men to compete for gigs boost Pablo's relative value in the labor force.).
I guess, to me, you appear to seek to compete in the Olympic Backstroke when, verily, we have forgotten even how to FLOAT. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1456
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 03:30 am: |
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The here and now comprises black folk who are building wealth. But the question is are they sharing this wealth and how they got it with the rest of us?
There will always be poor people, ignorant people, evil people, and some of these folk are black, others white, and others asian and hispanic...so, the issue is getting people on board with some kind of program, so those that can be helped and want to be helped can get it...and this is where I think Cynique's point hits home. Many African Americans see themselves as citizesn of the U.S. only. And their blackness is only related to their skin tone and racism...their don't see themselves as people with a culture, a history, etc...a common destiny, etc...
Now, I have not argued that black folk join with others for the sake of building an arbitrary coalition of people of color. If we share similar beliefs on issues with certain ethnic groups, we can build...if not then fall back!
This means that we are not tied to groups and organizations based on some romantic notion of people of color solidarity. Similarly, this also means that we do not embrace all black people based on some romantic notion that all blacks are naturally interested in the welfare of the larger black community [isn't this the case in georgia w/the two black candidates?]
Cynique:
There are some of us who believe that African Americans are a nation within a nation. I am one of these, as you probably know. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5699
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 08:18 am: |
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On the wealth issue:
1) For all real and practical purposes, African Americans have NO wealth. Yes. There are a few of us who’ve acquire a nominal modicum of affluence. But COLLECTIVELY Black foks have LESS than 2% of the nation’s wealth. Really? In a capitalistic country, what in the hell can we do with that?
2) But for the sake of discussion, let’s presume we have money. I agree we should share it amongst ourselves more. We both know part of the problem there is we dislike and distrust each others ability to provide adequate goods & service. Also, part of the problem is the FEW of us who have something are so gotdayam economically beholding to Whites (and, progressively, Asians & Arab) that we’re scared shytless to do much of ANYTHING that might suggest we want to think and do something ‘massah’ wouldn’t like.
I think we can surmount the issues I cite above. But such will require some fairly RADICAL thinking and actions. And MANY of those things won’t have a DAYAM thing to do with the frivolously individualist and faux democratic notions and behavior that presently exist.
On the point you and Cynique share:
I know we’ve had myriad problems working together. And surely many Black foks will NOT do as well as other, no matter what. But why would we spend the time we spend if we do not at least think of and fancy some form of Black community and culture? If being Black were irrelevant, surely we would NOT expend some much intellectual capital here debating, espousing and decrying the alleged lack of such.
Simply: If we’re all going to declare that we are Black, shouldn’t it actually MEAN something?
Again. If you don’t have a family and community, you’re NOT going to have any multi-chromatic coalition that’ll be worth anything.
True. No family of people will believe, agree upon and even conduct themselves monolithically.
But, as a whole, Black foks should and MUST move in some generally congruent and mutually-beneficial direction. Because if we don’t, we are going to be wholly overwhelmed by Whites, Latinos, Asians and others who do. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1457
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 01:18 pm: |
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ABM: I agree. As a group we do not have wealth; we are primarily consumers...And I agree with your second point too. I think that if we look at other groups, they tend to maintain some kind of group consciousness...the all have these traditions of saving money together...now, many african american families have this practice too. but some things it seems have not been passed down to all.
I agree with your latter points. I was just saying that many people's sense of community is not as "communal" as it needs to be. For many, the presence of black folk in apartment buildings and houses in an area constitutes a community, and we know a COMMUNITY, includes both territory[though not necessary] but often common and/or share values and beliefs which hold them together...we still have this, but it is not something that we do as collectively as we could! It seems that many of us forgot that racism is one thing and culture is another. In some of our desire to assimilate and "integrate" we in fact are a nation within a nation, with a culture worth sustaining. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5703
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 02:08 pm: |
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Yukio,
WHY are we a family, community and people who are "worth sustaining"?
I mean, any 'animal' knows to do certain things to sustain its line, species and overall place within the ecology.
What evidence is there we're as inclined to fight for our place as, say, even a mangy alley rat does for his? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1459
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 02:51 pm: |
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ABM:
I suspect that the first question is rhetorical.
Yes, any 'animal' knows to do as you say, but if that animal doesn't know or understand to which group he belongs and the goals and strategies and legitmacy of that group then that animal sustains itself for the sake of itself.
The evidence is the many movements black folk here and around the world have initiated and sustained for our liberation.
Yet, while some of us kept our "eyes on the prize," others bought too much of the rhetoric that we told to white folk and integrated.
I think that we have always, in a basic way, had primarily two positions--one nationalist and the other integrationist.
Some of us wanted both. SO that while we opened up political opportunities--ie voting and socalled first class citizenship--others are now living their lifes w/o that desire to "sustain its line, species and overall place within the ecology." They are individualist...relishing the American way!
Many of them are quite successful and others are not. To me, if you are not in some way giving back to your community, you are no different from a drug dealer slingin poison. Ok...that was a little dramatic...and overstated! But you get my point!
It is really not enough to work hard, make money, and raise a good family... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5711
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 10:18 pm: |
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Yukio,
Yukio: "Yes, any 'animal' knows to do as you say, but if that animal doesn't know or understand to which group he belongs and the goals and strategies and legitmacy of that group then that animal sustains itself for the sake of itself."
Interesting response. I think that is the very issue that I and, moreso, KOLA, have attempted to address here.
Bruh. You gottah be SOMETHING. And if you're going to be SOMETHING, that probably means you can't and won't be something ELSE.
I think the confusion often cited here about color and race allegiances speak to the very statement you make.
I hear you and concur with your views about the problems with integration.
I think the problem with integration was not integration itself as much as it was the problem of trying to integrate with a people who believed and STILL believe themselves superior. We had WAAAAY more faith in White foks ability to 'evolve' than they'd EVER earned the right to deserve here.
But, going back to what I've previously expressed, if we're weak as a people, any/all alliances we attempt to form with others will be weak.
REAL and valid integration would have included our have potent, persuasive social, cultural and economic systems that could have been used to impose more of OUR will and identity upon others.
Essentially, America would have been more BLACK...in a GOOD way.
But, alas, where we are NOW makes even the mere notion of such a obscure and distant fable. |
Serenasailor
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 675
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 05:39 pm: |
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I think the main reason why Latinos and black feel so differently is because of education. American Blacks as a group are way more educated than Latinos. American Blacks have been brainwashed into thinking that intergration is the remedy to all of societies evils.
Latino do not have the education that Blacks have so that is why they feel the way they do. It is like white ppl. Poor white ppl of course are the most racist. Because they are uneducated and poor. But your wealthy white ppl think differently. |
Serenasailor
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 676
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 05:42 pm: |
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I think the main reason why Latinos and black feel so differently is because of education. American Blacks as a group are way more educated than Latinos. American Blacks have been brainwashed into thinking that intergration is the remedy to all of societies evils.
Latino do not have the education that Blacks have so that is why they feel the way they do. It is like white ppl. Poor white ppl of course are the most racist. Because they are uneducated and poor. But your wealthy white ppl think differently. |
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