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Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 01:54 am: | 
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im in new york. anyone else find it interesting that dominicans say they are not black? im not saying all dominicans think this but it seems that the majority of dominicans will say anything to separate themselves or claim they are not black. its clear that they are black, but because they speak spanish they think they are somehow not black. spanish is a language, many different nationalites speak spanish. i speak spanish as do most of the members of my family. but we would never say we are not black. anyone can look at some of the major league baseball players (david ortiz-red socks, pedro martinez-mets, vladimir guerro, sammy sosa, etc) and easily see they are black. but ask a dominican if they or these people are black and they will say no. in the dominican republic they have all sorts of terms to define dark skin people. but no dominican wiil ever say they are black. this is a sickness, in my opinion. there are black people in cuba, puerto rico, panama, honduras,columbia, equador, venezuala, etc. but someow the dominicans have convinced themselves (due to years of negative propaganda about black people) they are not black. anyone else have any thoughts about black dominicans or so-called black hispanics, who just because they speak spanish think they are not black? i can't dictate to someone what they are, but its more than clear that the majority of dominicans are black (looking no different than the black americans). anyone have any thoughts about this? |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 276
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:06 am: |
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If U can say African Americans are no part African, then they can say they're not black.
This is the same as Kola insisting we're Africans because we look like Africans to her.
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Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:07 am: |
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good point, but what if african-americans said "we are not black", it would be a bit strange. but i tried to be clear in my post, "that i can't dictate to people what they are". so certainly dominicans have every right to say they are not black. i think the relationship between spanish speaking blacks and english speaking blacks in america and the west indies is an interesting one that deserves disscussion. but i appreciate your thoughts and feedback. |
Doberman23
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Doberman23
Post Number: 309
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:20 am: |
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once they come to america their ass is black, and if there dark skinned and in there own country then there still looked as being black but just in their own country. i think that every black person from another country has been hit with all sorts of negative stereotypes and want to disassociate themselves from american black culture but they are only fooling themselves when they get here if they think they can escape being lumped in with us.
i will say this much though, while in haiti we had translators (with american citizenship) who made alot smart ass comments about black americans to me like they weren't considered black americans. however when i was in cuba i didn't hear anything like that at all ... i resided in cuba for 9 months and haiti for 4. oh yeah, brazilians pull that shit too and what's funny to me is that they have the nerves to tell me some pretty crude things as though i'm not supposed to be offened ... i'm usually not, but sometimes they just don't know there like one vowel away from an ass kickin'
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1088
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 09:22 am: |
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Lil_ze,
Interesting points. I don't think this is a color issue but rather a culture issue. And although I also think many Domicans "look" like black Americans, culturally, they, just as people from the west indies, are so very different than Africans and Americans. I feel that claiming they are "black" is, to them, denying their culture--which is nothing like American or African culture.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 934
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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I met a Jamaican who insisted that he's not black...because he speaks Spanish and was born in Panama, he's now "latino".
Huh. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4313
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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I agree, Moonsigns. The word "black" has morphed into an adjective that in the year 2006 defines a whole new dynamic, one that is more about mind-set and less about skin tone. The irony of the new blackness is that if a person says they are not black then they aren't, because obviously one of the characteristics of being black is to claim that you are. This complicated issue is both subtle and blantant and is a startling example of the impact of inadequate words. A selection of 5 letters strung together to form a single syllable that is pronounced "black" says so much and yet so little about a person. When the group applies a word that is either compatible or incapitable with an individual's self-description, then culture becomes a more accurate barometer of what a person is, because the individual is shaped by his culture. |
Brownbeauty123
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 92
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
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So if I don't want to be black anymore, I can just say I'm something else now and that makes sense..
okay, today I'm hispanic then cause i learned how to speak spanish in college. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4316
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
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Are you immersed in the Spanish culture, "brownbeauty"? Do you eat their food, observe their customs and cuisine and wear their native dress? And I expect you to respond to this question in Spanish. Or is that the one language kola doesn't speak. |
Brownbeauty123
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 93
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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Is Kola the best thing that ever happened to you or something? You have a serious Kola obsessed mind paranoia because this thread in itself had absolutely NOTHING to do with that woman. Yet you still cannot shake her name out of your vocabulary. You ride her clit way too hard.
Moving on-I just don't see how someone cannot be Black because of what culture they choose to practice. Their race doesn't change. The cultures are just *different*. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2259
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:26 pm: |
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To the individual it might be a mind-set, though questionable; but to those around him, it's all about skin tone. How do you explain the fact that in every country/culture where blacks are in numbers, blacks are ALWAYS at the bottom of the totem pole? If not skin color, how do they know where to put us? Or, if it's a mind-set, again, not skin color, how do we know where to put ourselves? Who controls the minds? because it seems pretty organized to me.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4318
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:29 pm: |
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Tonya, you are what you think you are. Obviously there are many folks who do no allow themselves to be defined by the group, even though they may be subjected to the parameters of the group in certain situations. But IMO the word "black" is evolving. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:36 pm: |
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Brownbeauty:
"I just don't see how someone cannot be Black because of what culture they choose to practice. Their race doesn't change. The cultures are just "different".
Moonsigns:
In America though, we see things (literally) in black and white and everything in between. We are fascinated with race/color and try so desperately to fit everything into a box to keep everything in order in our politically correct world. In my experience, especially being married to a person of West Indian desent, they, though they understand racism/colorism in America and abroad, are not divided by it to the extent that Americans are. They, from my obversation, rather than fight the issue of diversity, have embraced it in a manner that celebrates the culture that has been birthed from such great diversity. They identify "their own" by language, food and particular traditions rather than by color alone.
"Out of many, one people"--Jamaican motto
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1214
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:43 pm: |
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Lil_ze:
Generally, when people of african descent claim that they are not black but Domicans, Puerto Ricans, etc...they do so because to them black equals African American. Thus, in that case they are not black. If you ask they if they are of African descent, however, and they say NO...then it is clearly a case of ignorance and self-hate.
People need to understand that African Americans view of blackness is one of many...that the U.S.'s version of race and color is just one...to me it is a case, of how assimilated the person is to this society, because with knowledge of U.S. racism just walking around with black skin will not telling u anything...it is unfortunate HOW folk find this out the significance of U.S. racism, generally through violence, often as victims of police brutality! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2260
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:44 pm: |
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But if it's an individual thought and if blackness or the word "black" is "evolving" (which I won't question), how come it involves so many people - so many individuals; and why is it so organized--why hasn't there been any change in the hierarchy? Not trying to start nothing. I really am puzzled. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2261
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:59 pm: |
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A) What you are describing is not an individual thought; it's a group thought--and b) it is not evolving because the hierarchy hasn't budged; it's still EXACTLY the same. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:02 pm: |
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Moonsigns:
The U.S. and the Caribbean have different histories, resulting is an emphasis here on black and white. The brit., french, port., and span., were never the majority of the islands, so that colonialism was implemented based on a small number of whites and assimilated blacks. Consequently, although the form of exploitation was the same (slavery an economic system) the nature of the beast was different. Thus a better comparison, though still different, would be SOuth Africa and the U.S.
Also, if you read about Guyana and Brazil, your assessment would be quite wrong.
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 263
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:35 pm: |
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Actually, in the Dominican Republic, you aren't "black" unless you are pure and undiluted. This bullshit was designed by the Spanish colonists(and later maintained by the breakaway light-skinned ruling classes) to keep the people divided amongst themselves. The four color divisions in the D.R. are: blanco, indio claro, indio oscuro, and negro. Note also that there aren't anymore "indians" on the island of Hispaniola, the Spaniards wiped them out. But Dominicans like to fool themselves into thinking that they are "Indian" because their Spanish masters instilled feelings of shame within them for being black. |
Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:21 pm: |
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everyone. great posts, well thought out, and very informative. although some of us have different opinions, we haven't resorted to name calling. this is an interesting topic, involving many different issues. lets continue these great posts. all of the comments have been insightful. lets keep it up. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4320
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
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Well, Tonya, you are answering your own questions, and in doing so, injecting your confusion into the equation. I don't agree with your answers. What do you call yourself? And does what other people call you influence what you call yourself? And who is the hierarchy? White people? Are you saying that no matter what we call ourselves we are still black to them? Maybe. But it certainly can be noted that white people do not treat all "black" people the same, and the reason for this has something to with the kind of personal vibes a black person gives off. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4321
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:57 pm: |
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"brownbeauty, your response to me was so kolaesque it's funny. In fact, your whole personality has changed from the way you first started out on this board. LMAO. |
Brownbeauty123
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 95
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:32 pm: |
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You act like I'm looking for your approval. Really? What the fuck do you want from me? You have reached a level of harassment by unfairly referring to me as 'Kola' at every chance you get. What's wrong with this broad? |
Enchanted
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 120
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:49 pm: |
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BrownB123, Cynique does the same to me and others. She does this to harrass and silence new people whenever they disagree with something she has said. I found that I feel the way Cynique does on almost every issue, but I don't like her because of the insult calling me "Kola" whenever she wants to bully and dismiss people. I like Kola even much less and I've found Moonsigns to be the only reasonable and respectful poster on this entire board. You will have to realize that Cynique has been rattled by Kola Boof. She can't get the woman out of her thoughts, but she calls Kola a nutcase. Now watch her come back in here and call us followers of Kola nut, when it's her who needs withdrawal from the Kola nut. She can't get off.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4324
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:51 pm: |
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Come on now, brown beauty, this is the first occasion I have referred to you and your ubiquitus self as a member of kola's cast of characters. Now go back and stare at Cynique's picture some more so you can further categorize her African blood line. ROTFLOL. I've had my laugh for the day. I'm done with you. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4325
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:57 pm: |
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Oh, no! Not another one. Now Enchanted has magically appeared. Wonder when kola has time to work on her other soap opera. Gimme a break. ROTFLMAO. Buh Bye. |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 277
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:59 pm: |
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Here, here.
BrownBeauty123---I am another one that is supposed to be "Kola Boof". At least I'm actually friends with Kola away from the board, so I don't mind.
But Cynique has this paranoia with Kola Boof that seems now to affect her brain. She's accused everybody in here of being Kola. Tonya, Renata, Myself, You, Babygirl, Jackie, Enchanted, BlackWisdom, Rustang at the beginning. Hell the list is endless. Everybody's Kola Boof.
Cynique is like this old lady in a retirement home constantly watching an imaginary mouse hole to see the imaginary mouse dart in and out.
Kola did a job on her ass for sure!
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Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 278
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:03 pm: |
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Cynique, I'm LMAO!!!
You're a craggy old hag who's going to be on her death bed muttering, "Dr. Kola....Nurse Kola...my daughter, Kola...where's Uncle Kola so I can drink some Kola."
LMAO!!!!!!!!
Kola Boof is your Bhuddist "chant". That's all you ever talk about. Kola, Kola, Kola.
Boy that's a powerful woman.
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Enchanted
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 121
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:04 pm: |
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Cynique you are the joke around here. What you say about me is none of my business because I have never called you names or disrespected you. You have a real problem lady with dementia. It's not going to concern me, so don't bother with your dry insults directed this way.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4326
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:15 pm: |
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And the kola machine rolls on replete with distortion and fraught with the deceitfulness that defines who she is. Isn't it hilarious how all of the facets of this chameleon appear at the same time. Whose next? Come on now, "ladies", withdraw back into kola's fertile imagination so I can go eat. Or better yet, talk amongst yourselves. Oh, and I NEVER mistook Rustang for you, kola. His HONESTY is unmistakable. |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 279
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:21 pm: |
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Yes you did call Rustang "Kola" once, Cynique. It was back when he said that his wife is a blue black woman and that he is very dark skinned also.
This was when he first came to the board and Kola had cussed him out and he was getting a kick out of her. You came back and accused him of being one of Kola's new "identities", but he never did answer you. He just ignored you and kept on posting.
A lot of us are always here lurking but the subjects you guys talk about are the same old same old, so I hardly need to post. I swear nothing ever changes around here.
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Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 280
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
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Cynique, I've never met a person who I felt was more honest than Kola. Brutally so.
I just don't get your jealous bent where this woman is concerned. You can't stand Kola so you want everybody else to hate her.
LMAO!!!!! I gotta post this one more time---
You're a craggy old hag who's going to be on her death bed muttering, "Dr. Kola....Nurse Kola...my daughter, Kola...where's Uncle Kola so I can drink some Kola."
LMAO!!!!!!!!
Kola Boof is your Bhuddist "chant". That's all you ever talk about. Kola, Kola, Kola.
Boy that's a powerful woman.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4327
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:55 pm: |
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What a a fine tribute to yourself, kola. Have you convinced yourself of how great you are? Puleeze. When are you going to get real? It's so obvious that all of these characters are you. Why do you persist in underestimating people's intelligence. You can't disguise the common denominator of all of these identities that you post as because they are all crazy. Just like you. Nothing you say or write can change that, babe. You are as nutty as a fruit cake and your multiple personalities prove it. BTW, how's your new boyfriend? He must feel neglected because you prefer fuckin the board instead of him. LMAO. |
Enchanted
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:06 pm: |
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Did anybody see one place in here that Kola Boof posted a message? Would someone else please end this confusion? This woman is addressing every single poster as Kola Boof and yet I don't see one post by Kola. This is getting old. I must be the only one not LMAO. I think Cynique has dementia.
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Enchanted
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 123
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:08 pm: |
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This was an interesting thread with a good topic until Cynique turned it into another Kola Boof discussion and she keeps doing that. Please don't keep summoning Kola Boof. I'm sick of her.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4330
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:45 pm: |
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Who told you to stick your head out of kola's sock, "enchanted"? Speaking of dementia, did you forget that I just said that you, prettybabygirl, and brownbeauty are all kola identities?? tsk-tsk. In any case, I'm bored with all of you because you speak in one voice. Yawnnnnnnnn. |
Brownbeauty123
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 97
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:04 pm: |
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Trivial ass behavior.
All you have to do is trace the IP addresses and see that we are all DIFFERENT people.
And besides, I don't think anyone is that fuckin' clever enough to carry on a conversation with themselves as 3 or 4 different people for several years on a regular freakin' basis just for the hell of it. There is really no motive Cynique behind you thinking we are all the same people--since the topic has absolutely nothing to do with Kola, or anything associated with something she has done, we're not conspiring to get AT you what is up with this paranoia? All these delusional conpiracy theories you keep spewing is over the top. did the effects of your prescriptions pills wear off??
Enchanted, she's not a very nice elderly lady. Comes across as a bourgeis 'knowitall'...I try to give her a benefit of a doubt cause she's lived so long and I try to respect old people. But whenever I try to converse with her, all she does is jump to her defenses with her KolaBoof Diaries--Everyone Who Is a Black Female Must Be Her mentality. I guess since I agree with Kola on certain issues, than I must *somehow* be her. Delusional. |
Enchanted
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:10 pm: |
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I don't agree with Kola about NOTHING and yet I'm Kola Boof. So it's worse than you thought.
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Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 36
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:45 pm: |
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how sad that a topic that started with good and interesting points of view on a topic that merits attention and disscussion, has degenerated in to a back and forth nitpicking session about nonsense and non-entities. amazing. why doesn't someone start a "lets argue" thread. then maybe all those who just want to go back and forth bickering can do so. and those who want to talk about actual issues can do so. again, very sad developments on this thread and on this board overall. this thread was not titled "lets fight"! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4331
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:56 pm: |
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Oh, give it up, kola boof. You created the "enchanted " role as your antagonist. Each one of your characters has a different persona and a different function. It's all a part of the charade you have saturated the board with. That whole post by "brownbeauty" is nothng more than dialogue that you have put into the mouth of a character you have created. But this nonsense does get tiresome and you can't be stopped because you are incorrigible and mentally unbalanced. So knock yourself out. I leave you and your entourage to talk to each other, in keeping with the behavior of someone who is removed from reality. Carry on, kola boof. This exchange with you and yours is a waste of my time. |
Brownbeauty123
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 98
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 09:15 pm: |
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Cynique, why don't you check the IP addresses??
Where is the board admininstrator?? Could he please prove to this loony tune that we are all separate individuals???
Where is your nurse at?? Why do they allow someone who is mentally ill to operate a computer?? Not joking--you are a senile old lady who doesn't need access to the web. You NEED help. I am being brutally honest with you, because I've frequent MANY message board forums and you are quite a unique case that stands out-- I have never encountered someone so sprung on an internet individual that it severely effects their sanity. Are you even sane enough to be snapped out of your KolaBoofness?
Lil_ze, I agree this was an excellent topic that really should have taken off into a much better direction. And it still can--- |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 371
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 09:20 am: |
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Well anyway Lil Ze - I don't know any Dominicans. I worked with one once but she was a Caucasian/Hispanic. If you ask them their race, what is their reply? They don't consider themselves Negroids? What are they then. |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 264
Registered: 12-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:29 pm: |
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They are self-hating Negroes who speak Spanish and still kiss the culos of the Conquistadores. Full stop. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 372
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 01:43 pm: |
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Schakspir - How do you know when someone hates themselves? Besides yourself. Just curious. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1219
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 01:54 pm: |
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hmmm....while i know some racist ass domincans, cubans, and puerto ricans, i believe most do not view race the way african americans do . . . as i see it, it is as simple as an african american trying to use their racial knowledge in PR or DR: it wouldn't work!
I have, similarly, met african americans who will not call the blackest cuban black because this person doesn't speak american ebonics, doesn't eat chittlins, and doesn't hate whites people the same way that african americans do...african americans, ask any african or west indian, are quick to distinguish themselves from those "niggas who arrived to OUR country from the banana boat!" This conversation, in conclusion, I submit, is one-sided, culturally biased, and provincial...lmao!
But yeah many domicans are..."self-hating Negroes who speak Spanish and still kiss the culos of the Conquistadores."
but how can african americans talk when they think lIncoLn freed the slaves...how can senegalese talk when they are more french THE french, how west indians talk when they claim that they were never enslaves like african ameRicans: IGnoranCe AboUndS!
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 265
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 03:03 pm: |
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Schakspir - How do you know when someone hates themselves? Besides yourself. Just curious.
Mzuri: read what I posted before about the Dominican caste system. FYI, I've been to the Dominican Republic twice, and only a jackass can't see that self-hate(of an unspoken and subtle kind)and denial of Africanness underscores Dominican life. Also: I speak and understand enough Spanish to know what they say amongst themselves. |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 266
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 03:22 pm: |
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Yukio, yes, that's true; just reading a lot of the posts on this Thumper's Corner is enlightening enough! Some of us should not even bring up the subject of other black's self-hatred, what with douche-bags like 50 cent, KB and Mary J. Blige running around! |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 113
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:03 pm: |
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"have, similarly, met african americans who will not call the blackest cuban black because this person doesn't speak american ebonics"
wow, this sounds exactly like my dad and the guys he hangs out with at the barber shop when he goes to get his hair cut. They tlak all the time about how baseball coaches don't give "black" players a chance when the majority of the baseball team is black. However, when you tell my dad this he says those people aren't black because they don't identify with us.
in my opinion afro-lations are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont.
if they refer to themselves as black, you have african americans quickly correcting them that they're not black and that they would never have as hard a time as a black american.
on the other hand, if they refuse to call themselves black we label them self-hating.
there are still a lot of us who don't know that there were black slaves in puerto rico and brazil and that a large number of those people are of african decent, so when they call themselves black we look at them like they're crazy and claim they're trying to rip off "our" culture.
Its amazing how black americans take on the views of the larger american culture. While americans period think we're the only people on the face of the earth worth mentioning, so many of us black americans think we're the only black people on the face of the earth.
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Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 114
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:10 pm: |
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plus, whoever said that the reaosn a lot of black hispanics don't view themselves is black is because they were raised in a different culture is right.
the racial constructions in those countries are completely different from the racial counstructs in our country and this is where the culture clash comes into play. in brazil, someone who's dark brown wouldn't even be considered black. Lorenze tate wouldn't even be considered black. In brazil you have to be jet black AND poor to be considered black. you can also be jet black but if you have wavy hair you're still not considered black. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 376
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:18 pm: |
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Could it be that if you're in a nation where everybody looks the same, race isn't even an issue. Maybe they don't think of themselves as Black because they never gave it much thought. Maybe they never even laid eyes on a white or Asian person to have anything to compare themselves to, and they don't think of themselves as "different." Could that be the reason? I mean, it's not as if I think of myself as "Black." When you're laying in your bed at night, are you thinking about the fact that you are Black? |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 115
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:19 pm: |
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Tonya is also right though...
hispanic culture is very racist and colorist even if they don't notice it and this is mainly because of the after effects of slavery in those countries. Of course slavery created a system in that allowed the very white to become wealthy and the very black to become poor. over time this evolved into a class issue although there were no distinct racial categories in brazil. so, the very black are the ones at the bottom with no power to define themselves or their own culture.
This is why brazilians may feel that they don't see race. However, it's still unconsciously there and you can see this in the language becasue everything that's negative is related to blackness.Racism is so apart of their culture that they don't even notice it. It's like a fish to water. They actually have more race problems than we do mainly because they have no clearly defined racial categories. If you don't can't see a problem then how can you fight it?
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Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 117
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:27 pm: |
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"Could it be that if you're in a nation where everybody looks the same, race isn't even an issue."
but Mzuri, Hispanic culture is the most diverse culture you ever wanna see. They actually have asian hispanics (filipinos), black hispanics, white hispanics, italian hispanics (like the castillians who ruled spain for years and also mixed with the spanish)and native indian hispanics. the spanish also mixed with arabs for centuries. So they don't all look alike by any sense of the imagination. Theee is no other culture that diverse and that's why they have so many problems identifying themselves.
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Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 118
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:34 pm: |
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Look at shakira who has blue eyes and blondehair . She looks like a straight white girl with an ass. Now compare her to selma hyek, J-lo, selena and Rosario dawson (who is of african decent) none of them look anything alike.
I kow tons of hispanics who also look striaght italian and some look straight arab. I dind't know my spanish teacher was spanish until he told me because he looked like a straight white country hick. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 119
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 05:03 pm: |
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all of that diversity can be seen even in one place (brazil)so you don't have to really travel outside of one segment of latin culture to see the diversity. that's just how diverse it is. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 378
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 08:53 pm: |
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Misty - Yes I know. Hispanic is not a race anyway. Shakira and Selma are both Caucasoids. |
Brownbeauty123
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 100
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 09:03 pm: |
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Someone has once referred to Selma as metizo (sp?), what that is I don't know but she wasn't referred to as White.
What is Jennifer Lopez's race? She looks as though she has minimal African ancestry, although she has said publicly that her heritage is 100% Spanish/Spaniard blood. Her sisters look on the other hand look completely white, and not cute at all. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 125
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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selma doesn't look caucasoid to me at all.
i once heard that selma was a mestizo (a mixture of indian and spanish) but then another time i heard she was mixerd with spanish and arab.
whatever she is she doesn't look caucasian anywhere because she's very ethnic looking iwht her thick lips, thick eyebrows and jet black hair. Even the shape of her eyes is very ethnic looking.
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Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
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very good, we're back on topic. my 2 cents about jennifer lopez claiming her heritage is 100% spainiard/ spanish blood. i have to kind of laugh at this claim on her part. i grew up around europeans from spain. and to day still know them and their families. they have told me (during disscussions about spanish heritage and history) that very few of the people from latin america are 100% spanish blood (as j-lo claims). the people of argentina, uruguay,and a large part of chile are caucasions or white. argentina and uruguay are almost 96% white. the populations of these countries are the descendants of spainiard and italian immigrants. but in an effort to try to link themselves with the european spanish population, and separate themselves from the "indian" population (which is looked down upon is latin america) many people, from other spanish speaking countries in latin america, will claim 100% spanish blood. j-lo what she is im not sure, but having been to spain and grew up with spainiards from europe. ive never seen any spanish women that look like j-lo. even the "darker" spanish people like penelope cruz or antonio banderas, just look like white people with tans. j-lo and her sisters, for that matter, maybe they don't look like the darker puerto ricans, but in my humble opinion, they do not look like 100% spanish blood. they just don't. although im not saying that in latin american countries (other than argentina, uruguay, and chile) there are not 100% spanish people (cuba had a big migration of spanish immigrants from spain) because there are. i just don't think j-lo is 100% spanish. |
Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 42
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:50 pm: |
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people should checkout "mexica-movement" website for great info on this complex issue. this website is very informative. im not sure if its .com or.org. just do a google search for "mexica-movement". |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 379
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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Misty - I hate to ask but have you studied the subjects of anthropology and race? Do we need to start at the beginning? If so, let's start a separate thread.
mestizo = a person of mixed racial ancestry, especially of mixed European and Native American ancestry |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 380
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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Lil Ze - Actually, we need to focus our attention on the Blacka-Movement. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 101
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:05 pm: |
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Lil_ze, do you think Jennifer Lopez has a tad bit of African blood? It shows a little in her features--as for her sister it doesn't at all. Not that it means much if the sister looks white because genetics can be quite tricky.
Her father looks white
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?invocationType=imageDetails&query=jenn ifer+lopez%27s+father&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jlobronx.com%2Ffamily%2Fdad.jpg&site= www.jlobronx.com&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jlobronx.com%2Ffamily.html&b=image%3Finvo cationType%3Dtopsearchbox.image%26query%3Djennifer%2Blopez%2527s%2Bfather
And her mother looks like this
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?invocationType=imageDetails&query=jenn ifer+lopez%27s+mother&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nynewsday.com%2Fmedia%2Fphoto%2F2005- 02%2F16257496.jpg&site=www.nynewsday.com&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nynewsday.com%2Fe ntertainment%2Fcustom%2Ffashion%2Fnyc-jengallery%2C0%2C4632920.photogallery%3Fco ll%3Dnyc-fashion-utility%26index%3D27&b=image%3FinvocationType%3Dtopsearchbox.im age%26query%3Djennifer%2Blopez%2527s%2Bmother
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Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 102
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:09 pm: |
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Oops
Jlo's daddy
http://www.jlobronx.com/family.html
Looks like a white man
And her mom http://www.nynewsday.com/entertainment/custom/fashion/nyc-jengallery,0,4632920.p hotogallery?coll=nyc-fashion-utility&index=27
looks like this
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Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
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mzuri, i agree our focus should be on our people or "blacka-movement". but, after reading alot of the information on the "mexica-movement" website and speaking with the man who is the head of the website. i feel the information on this site is beneficial to our people. of course, our concern first should be our people. but understanding the position of another oppressed people, (the indigenious peoples of the americas) i don't see how this could hurt us as a people. i found that after reviewing this website, i not only learned many things i did not know, but many of the things i thought i knew about the indigenous people of mexico were not true. many of the same things that happened to our people, also happened to the original people of mexico. much of the same "tricknology" used against our people in order to rule over us and divide us, was and is used against the indigenous people of mexico and the americas. the info on the "mexica-movement" is informative and beneficial to all people, mexican or not. and i don't see how learning about this important history could hurt us. but, of course our concern should be for our people first. but, i honestly feel the info on this website is beneficial to our people. regarding j-lo, she might have some taino indian blood or black blood. not sure. but, i have seen her father and he does look like like a white man. her mom looks almost white, but not like a european spaniard. but in some latin american countries people who are called "white", may not be actually 100% white, but in those countries they are considered and think of themselves as white. so j-lo and her sisters and mother may not be 100% white, like your so-called "all-american" white person. but in their country they are close enough to this and are thought of as white. but, to be truthful, i just don't know about j-lo. to me she doesn't look 100% white, but if she thinks this about herself more power to her. its clear some spanish speaking latin americans want nothing to do with black people, and i don't want anything to do with them. but j-lo's dad does look like a white man. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 131
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:18 am: |
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"I hate to ask but have you studied the subjects of anthropology and race? Do we need to start at the beginning? If so, let's start a separate thread."
Mzuri, or course i've studied antrhorpology and race i'm about to graduate from college this may.
a lot of it in my race relations class that focused on anthropoogy and sociology asd it relates to race So, i studied it enough to learn that there's no way to determine a perosns race and that biologically race is an illusion. So, my question to you is were you even paying attention in anthropologicy class when this was being discussed?
anyway, Selma hayek looks like a Spaniard….when i say selma hayek doesn't look white i'm saying she doesn't look white according to OUR traditional definitions of race of race. and plus, you have to know that the spanish aren't full white themselves. They're a mixed group due to the Moorish influence (which was a group of Arabs and Africans). But again, were you paying attention in class when the history of Spain was being discussed? Very few of them are full white according to modern-day racial classifications (that’s if you believe race exists).
So, even when Hispanics like J-lo try to run away from their darker roots by claiming full Spanish ancestry they are still mixed. Even Riki martin reported having some african ancestry in him and he looks whiter than both J-lo and selma hayek put togather.
anyway, me and you can start another thread on this in order to keep this thread on topic and keep the flaming out of it. It wasn't my point to start a flame war but you seem hell bent on it because you're very sensetive and defensive. I noticed that in the santana thread. I tried to avoid it in that thread but you kept trying to get negativity going.
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 267
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:06 pm: |
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The Lopez family are nothing but Puerto Rican octoroons. In Louisiana, people would think them Creole, which just goes to show. Ever heard of Jelly-Roll Morton?? |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 382
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 03:25 pm: |
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There is no negativity Misty. You see - in life, everyone does not have the same exact opinions about everything. Just because I disagree or see things differently than you doesn't imply negativity.
I asked a simple question since you don't seem to know what you're talking about. You say there's no way to determine a person's race. And that race is an "ILLUSION." Since when? Says who? You? So you're saying that we're really not BLACK? If there's no such thing as race then why are we having this discussion?
And take my word for it, I'm not sensitive about anything on this board. It's not that important to me that I forgot how to spell and where the keys are located on my keyboard. Don't be so uptight.
And BTW - HOPPY Easter!!!
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Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 04:02 pm: |
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im not sure i would say the spanish population is a mixed one and not 100% white. yes, the moors dwelt in spain for a few hundred years. but the moors lived is small areas and mixed very little with the spainish population. the moors had a different religion and different customs than the spanish population. these fact kept the moors separate from the spanish population. the moors were never fully integrated into spanish culture. the idea that the spanish are "mixed" with the moors who dwelt in spain, in my opinion, is a factually inaccurate one. the spanish population is a white population. i think anyone who has been to spain could agree that the spainiards are white. many of then having blond hair and blue eyes. the reason some spainiards have dark hair and a "darker" tone of skin. is the same reason that some italians, greeks, or some irish have darker skin or darker hair. these physical traights are a part of who they as a people . but to say the spanish are not white or are "mixed" because of the moors. i just don't think this is true. |
Dakota
Newbie Poster
Username: Dakota
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 06:15 am: |
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Both Shakira and Selma have Arab fathers and Latina mothers (Shakira is from Columbia and Selma from Mexico).
Latinos and African Americans are similar in that you can have one family with various people of various shades. Unfortunately, the darker ones in the family get the short end of the stick in many latino cultures. It exists in the African American culture too. Our cultures are both off-shoots of the colonization of the West and slavery. I just wish we could embrace our cultures instead of running away from them. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 112
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 03:41 pm: |
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Do you all think that if all people were to emerge into one big race things would be better? Like a once race society?
I don't know what to think of that. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1095
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 04:07 pm: |
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Shakira and Selma do not look average white women--because they aren't. Christie Brinkley(sp?) is white.
About J-Lo. Before she became "brand new" she looked like any other "hard" Puerto-Rican girl that could've been picked off any rough street in the "boogie-down". Notice how "soft" she is now compared to her old pics. Money made her "look".
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1096
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 04:09 pm: |
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Brownbeauty:
"Do you all think that if all people were to emerge into one big race things would be better?"
Moonsigns:
No. Because human beings are flawed. There would always be someone trying to start shyt for some stupid reason.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1970
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 04:42 pm: |
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Do you all think that if all people were to emerge into one big race things would be better? Like a once race society?
Who would be willing to do this but niggers?
You think White People are going to stop having Blond hair and Blue eyes to MERGE with inferior people? Why should they?
You think uninfected Africans or nationalist Japan or Spaniards would merge? I don't.
I know this is a shocking idea in America, but---getting rid of the black people is not the answer to racism.
North Africa and SPAIN have proven that already, and as much as Black Americans love to discuss "THE MOORS"---it's remarkable that they still don't get it.
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Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 113
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 06:21 pm: |
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What is Christina Millian? I can tell that she has African ancestry but what else? |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 954
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 07:48 pm: |
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I have to agree with Moonsigns. From the moment I first saw J. Lo until now, she looks like a hard street bitch who'll cut you if she has to (and even if she doesn't have to).
Maybe it's a New York thang. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 08:14 pm: |
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Jennifer lopez was never all that great-looking to me. She is one of those celebs who I think looks were blown out of proportion.
She has some nice physical features like the high cheekbones, and skin. But that's about it. Not stunning.
And her ass was never that big. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1981
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 08:31 pm: |
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Jennifer Lopez's managers are still on my case about the things I wrote about her in my autobiography, so I won't comment further.
But I'm glad Brownbeauty is speaking truthfully, and less brutally than I did.
Of course, we're just JEALOUS.
Yeah right.
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Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 118
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 08:34 pm: |
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What did you say Kola??
Beyonce's butt isn't big either. |
Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 08:43 pm: |
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christina milian is cuban. i don't know if she was born there but her family is cuban. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 120
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 09:14 pm: |
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Cuban is a nationality, though.
She obviously has some Black in her--but what else?? |
Caprical
Newbie Poster
Username: Caprical
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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Lopez looked better before the change i think.
She had prettier hair and her butt was bigger before hollywood got a hold of her. I liked her long curly black hair and dont think she looked hard at all. She just looked more less white back then. If that's what you all see as a "softer" look then that's your opinion. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 960
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
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She's ALWAYS looked HARD, not just before. |
Caprical
Newbie Poster
Username: Caprical
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:40 pm: |
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Lil_ze :
"im not sure i would say the spanish population is a mixed one and not 100% white. yes, the moors dwelt in spain for a few hundred years. but the moors lived is small areas and mixed very little with the spainish population. the moors had a different religion and different customs than the spanish population. these fact kept the moors separate from the spanish population."
me:
This isn't true. Although the spanish aren't as mixed as misty states, there is still a good number of them that are. So the spanish population is nowhere near 100% white.
"i think anyone who has been to spain could agree that the spainiards are white. many of then having blond hair and blue eyes. the reason some spainiards have dark hair and a "darker" tone of skin. is the same reason that some italians, greeks, or some irish have darker skin or darker hair. "
It's funny you mention this being that italians and greeks are actually more mixed than the spanish LOL. Especially italians. Youll find that again in southern italy there was a lot of moorish influence. It's also been documented that some of the irish also have a good percentage of african blood. |
Caprical
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If you want to learn more about the population of mixed spaniards here are some good articles to check out
250,000 MIXED RACE PEOPLES EXPELLED BY PHILIP II
The Moors had occupied Spain for over 700 years, so it was inevitable
that
they would have mixed with the local population over whom they ruled.
In
this way a not insignificant amount of Moorish - in reality mixed race
Arabic/Black - blood entered a few Spanish families in the southernmost
parts of Spain and Portugal.
The Gothic Spaniards did however recognize this as an issue, and in
1609,
the Spanish king, Philip III, ordered the physical expulsion of some
250,000
"Moriscos" or Christianized Moors from the country, purely on the basis
of
their race and not their religion - a marked difference to the earlier
expulsion of the Jews, who, if genuinely converted to Catholicism, were
allowed to stay.
The vast majority of these Christianized Moors were in reality of mixed
race
- part Moorish, part White Spanish (hence their adherence to
Christianity).
This remarkable example of the expulsion on racial grounds was a major
reason why the infusion of Moorish blood into Spain was not as
significant
as it could have been, and thus played only a minor contributing role
in the
creation of the dark looks for which some Spaniards are still known
today.
SPANISH INQUISITION AND FINAL EXPULSION OF THE JEWS
In 1478 AD, the Spanish king and queen, Ferdinand and Isabella,
launched
what became famous throughout the world as the Spanish Inquisition - in
theory an attempt to enforce religious uniformity, but in reality a
political tool through which the Spanish tried to drive out the last of
the
Conversos, making it into a primarily anti-Jewish campaign.
However, all sorts of "heretics" - people who disputed the Catholic
version
of Christianity, were also persecuted, with approximately 2,000 people
being
burned at the stake during the time of the Inquisition.
Finally in 1492 AD, the Spanish expelled all the Jews from Spain who
had
still not converted to Christianity.
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Caprical
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here's another good article on mixed spaniards.
Part 11: RACIAL MIXING IN IBERIA (SPAIN)
The historical record of Spain is clear: although it is majority White,
the
population has been affected by three factors: the 700 year long
occupation
by the mixed race Moors, the African slave trade and the 500 year long
influx by mixed race Gypsies. Considering the pressures to which Spain
has
been subjected, the relatively low levels of admixture are a tribute to
the
resilience of the White Spanish.
Caveat: It is important to bear in mind that these results do not imply
that
all modern Spanish are of mixed origin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUB-SAHARAN mtDNA DETECTED IN SPAIN
In a study released in the Annals of Human Genetics, Volume 67 Issue 4
Page
312, entitled Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show
Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean (S. Plaza, et.
al.),
sub-Saharan L haplogroup sequences are found at frequencies 3% in
Iberia.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00039.x/abs/
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 67 Issue 4 Page 312 - July 2003
Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional
Gene
Flow in the Western Mediterranean
S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J.
Bertranpetit
and D. Comas
Genetic Exchange Through the Mediterranean
Each of the subregions analysed (NW Africa and SW Europe) shows
sequences
that originated on the opposite shore of the Mediterranean. This is
particularly clear in the case of U6 and L in SW Europe. L sequences
are
found at frequencies 3% in Iberia and 2.4% in Italy. Given the
relatively
high frequencies of L sequences in NW Africa, it is not clear whether
they
were contributed by the historical populations movements from the south
to
the north of the Mediterranean (such as the Moslem invasions of the
7th-11th
centuries), or whether its presence is associated with other processes
not
directly linked to NW Africa. Out of 23 different L sequences in
Iberia, two
were also found in NW Africa (as well as in sub-Saharan Africa), and 7
others were found in sub-Saharan Africa (in a dataset comprising 1,158
individuals from 20 populations; Graven et al. 1995, Pinto et al. 1996;
Watson et al. 1996; Mateu et al. 1997; Rando et al. 1998; Krings et al.
1999; Pereira et al. 2001; Brehm et al. 2002) but not in NW Africa.
Treating
the set of L sequences in Iberia as if it were a population reveals
genetic
distances from some W African populations, such as the Senegalese and
Yoruba, that are slightly smaller than those between L sequences in
Iberia
and NW Africa. Thus, it may be the case that gene flow from NW Africa
is not
entirely responsible for the presence of L sequences in Iberia.
As hinted above, the presence of haplogroup U6 in Iberia may signal
gene
flow from NW Africa, and those of the subhaplogroup U6b1 recent gene
flow
from the Canary Islands. Haplogroup U6 is present at frequencies
ranging
from 0 to 7% in the various Iberian populations, with an average of
1.8%.
Given that the frequency of U6 in NW Africa is 10%, the mtDNA
contribution
of NW Africa to Iberia can be estimated at 18%, with a 95% confidence
interval of 8%-26% (estimated by sampling with replacement 10,000 times
in
populations having the same sample sizes and U6 frequencies as Iberia
and NW
Africa). This is larger than the contribution estimated with
Y-chromosomal
lineages (7%, 95% confidence interval 1%-14%, Bosch et al. 2001).
Full article can be found here.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.html
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 68:1019-1029, 2001
High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Variation Shows a Sharp
Discontinuity and Limited Gene Flow between Northwestern Africa and the
Iberian Peninsula
Elena Bosch, Francesc Calafell, David Comas, Peter J. Oefner, Peter A.
Underhill, and Jaume Bertranpetit
In the present study we have analyzed 44 Y-chromosome biallelic
polymorphisms in population samples from northwestern (NW) Africa and
the
Iberian Peninsula, which allowed us to place each chromosome
unequivocally
in a phylogenetic tree based on >150 polymorphisms. The most striking
results are that contemporary NW African and Iberian populations were
found
to have originated from distinctly different patrilineages and that the
Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not
complete)
barrier to gene flow. In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic
colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed
75%
of the current gene pool. In comparison, 78% of contemporary Iberian Y
chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic expansion from western
Asia,
along the northern rim of the Mediterranean basin. Smaller
contributions to
these gene pools (constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and
10% of
Y chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic
and,
during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa. Finally,
bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has been
detected:
the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to the NW African
gene
pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African populations may have
contributed 7%
of Iberian Y chromosomes. The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in
A.D. 711
and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the
current
Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y
chromosome
allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely
quantify each historical layer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOORISH INFLUENCE IN IBERIA
According to the study Human Y-Chromosome variation in the Western
Mediterranean area: implications for the peopling of the region. by R
Scozzari, et. al., and published in Human Immunology, 62(9):871-874
(2001).,
the newly defined haplogroup 25.2 reveals the influence of the Moors in
Iberia:
http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/21/30/47/39/28/article.pdf (requires
subscription to access)
Human Immunology, 62(9):871-874 (2001)
Human Y-Chromosome variation in the Western Mediterranean area:
implications
for the peopling of the region.
by R Scozzari, F Cruciani, A Pangracio, P Santolamazza, G Vona, P
Moral, V
Latini, L Varesi, M Memmi, V Romano, G De Leo, M Gennarelli, J
Jaruzellska,
R Villems, J Parik, V Macaulay, A Torroni.
"Among the Spanish populations, a small sample of 19 subjects from an
isolated population living in a restricted area (Pas valleys) of the
community of Cantabria is of particular interest. The origin of this
population is not clearly defined [11], although some historical
information
traces the peopling of the region back to the 11th century as a result
of a
repopulating from different sources, including Moorish slaves [12].
The newly defined HG25.2 originated on a HG25.1 background. In Africa,
HG25.2 is observed in 29% Arabs and 71% of Berbers from Morocco, but is
not
found in those Ethiopian populations in which a high frequency of the
ancestral HG25.1 is observed (R.Scozzari and associates, unpublished
results
[18]).
Outside Northern Africa, HG25.2 was seen at generally low frequencies
in
Spain, France, and Italy, although no traces could be detected in the
Near
East.
However, particularly high frequency of this haplogroup (42%) was found
in
the Pasiego of the Pas valleys. In the correspondence analysis (Figure
6),
the Pasiego do not cluster with the other Spanish populations, but
rather
with the Arabs and Berbers from Morocco, supporting historic and
demographic
records that would trace back the origin this population to a
heterogeneous
resettlement, including also Moslem slaves [12].
The microsatellite diversity associated with HG25.2 provided
coalescence age
estimates of ;1400 YBP (CI 5 540–2200 YBP). Although it is not possible
at
present to determine where HG25.2 originated, the simplest
interpretation of
our data is that HG25.2 diverged from the ancestor HG25.1 somewhere in
North
Africa a few thousand years ago. A founder effect led first to its
expansion
among the Berber populations, followed, in historical time, by its
spread
into the Iberian peninsula.
Interestingly, the distribution YAP(1)/DYS271(A) chromosomes was
recently
demonstrated to be strongly clinal in Portugal, with the highest
frequencies
in the south, and interpreted as a reflection the Moorish invasions
from
North Africa in the Middle Ages [45]. A dissection of the Portuguese
YAP(1)/
DYS271(A) chromosomes by PN2 and XY275Y would determine whether they
indeed
belong to HG25.2, could be inferred from an early report, which
unfortunately did not provide haplotype information [46]."
HG25.2, which most likely indicates recent North African admixture, was
found at the following frequencies in this study:
Southern Spaniard: 1.6
Asturias: 2.2
Pasiegos: 42.1
Morrocan Arab: 28.6
Morrocan Berber: 71
Presuming that
(1) the mixed race North African Moors had between 28.6% and 71%
HG25.2;
(2) there was no HG25.2 in Iberia prior to the Moorish invasion; and
(3) the average level of HG25.2 across Iberia today is 2%;
This would imply that about 3-7% of Iberian male lineages are of
Moorish
origin, though this is evidently higher in places like the Pas valley.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://muse.jhu.edu//journals/human_biology/v073/73.5lucotte.html
(requires
subscription to access)
Human Biology 73.5 (2001) 763-769
North African Genes in Iberia Studied by Y-Chromosome DNA Haplotype 5
Gérard Lucotte, Nathalie Gérard, and Géraldine Mer
Abstract: The frequency of haplotype 5 at the Y-chromosome-specific DNA
polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study of 487 males
originating
from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa.
The
highest frequency of haplotype 5 (68.9%) was previously observed in
Berbers
from Morocco, and it has been established that this haplotype is a
characteristic Berber haplotype in North Africa. The relative
frequencies of
haplotype 5 distribution show a geographical gradient of decreasing
frequency according to latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in
Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country; such a
cline
of decreasing frequency of haplotype 5 from the south to the north in
Iberia
clearly establishes a gene flow from North Africa towards Iberia.
Key Words: DYS1,P49/TAQI, Berberian haplotype, Southwest Europe
During the 7th century A.D., Muslims coming from the Arabian Peninsula
and
the Middle East recruited Berbers on their way to invading the north.
One of
the most important population movements on both sides of the
Mediterranean
Sea was the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula by North Africans, soon
after
this first Muslim invasion. More than eight centuries (from the 8th to
the
15th century) of Muslim domination in the southern part of Iberia
created an
important cultural legacy and possible gene exchange between North
African
and Iberian populations. It has also been documented that genes from
the
Mediterranean area entered Iberia in more ancient times (Arnaiz-Villena
et
al. 1999).
Variations in DNA sequences specific to the nonrecombinant part of the
Y
chromosome are particularly interesting from a general population
genetics
point of view, because they relate to paternal ancestry. The first
published
and most informative DNA probe used in Southern blots for this
objective is
p49 (locus DYS1), which is able to identify some TaqI male-specific
fragments: the A, B, C, D, F, and I fragments are polymorphic between
individuals (Lucotte and Ngo 1985), and 16 main corresponding
haplotypes
(numbered 1-16) were identified in the first population study using the
p49
probe (Ngo et al. 1986) on DNA samples of unrelated males living in
France.
Haplotype 15 (A3, C1, D2, F1, I1) was the most widespread haplotype
(23%) in
this initial study, and elevated frequencies of [End Page 763]
haplotype 15
were later observed in French Basques (Lucotte and Hazout 1996). The
geographic distribution of haplotype 15 in Europe shows a gradient of
decreasing frequency from this Basque focus towards the southwest, but
also
towards eastern peripheral countries (Lucotte and Hazout 1996; Lucotte
and
Loirat 1999).
Haplotype 5 (A2, C0, D0, F1, I1) has a particularly high frequency
(55%) in
North Africa (Lucotte et al. 2000), and is of predominantly Berber
origin.
Accordingly, in the present study we examined the relative frequencies
of
haplotype 5 and other haplotypes in four Iberian populations, and
compared
them to those of a Berber population living in North Africa.
The 487 samples studied (Figure 1), already described for haplotype 15,
correspond to unrelated adult males whose origin is based on the birth
place
of their fathers and (at least) grandfathers. The Berber sample (group
E)
consisted of 74 Berbers, natives of Morocco and living near Marrakech
(Lucotte et al. 2000). The Basque sample (group A) consisted of 97
French
Basques, as already described (Lucotte and Hazout 1996). The Catalonia
sample (group B) consisted of 76 French Catalans from Perpignan
(Lucotte and
Loirat 1999), plus 31 Spanish Catalans from Barcelona living in France
(Lucotte and David 1992). The Portuguese sample (group C) consisted of
79
Portuguese living in France and originating from the northern part of
the
country (Lucotte and Loirat 1999), and 59 originating from the southern
part
of the country (Lucotte and David 1992; Lucotte and Loirat 1999). The
Andalusian sample (group D) consisted of 71 Spaniards originating from
the
region of Seville (Lucotte and Loirat 1999).
DNA was extracted from venous blood, according to a classical method
(Gautreau et al. 1983). At least 5 µg of genomic DNA was restricted
with
TaqI enzyme, [End Page 764] and separated by electrophoresis on a 1.5%
agarose gel. The restricted DNAs were transferred then to Hybond N+
membranes by the method of Southern, and hybridized with two probes
oligolabeled by random priming; these two probes, used consecutively,
were
the 2.8 kb p49f-EcoRI insert, and the 0.9 kb p49a-(XbaI and BamHI)
insert
(method as described in Lucotte et al. 1994). The TaqI fragments (named
alphabetically A-Q) are revealed in genomic DNA, most of which are male
specific. Among these the A, B, C, D, F, and I bands can be either
present
or absent between individuals (variants present or zero); fragments A
(variants A1A4) and D (variants D1 and D2) can also show variations in
size.
The frequencies of the 16 main haplotypes initially found in Europe
(Ngo et
al. 1986; Lucotte and Hazout 1996) in the five populations studied are
given
in Table 1. All 16 haplotypes are represented in the five groups
considered
as a whole; haplotype 15 is the most frequent (36.8%), as it was for
the
first European populations studied (Ngo et al. 1986). The highest value
obtained in our series was for Basques (72.1%), as has been found
earlier
(Lucotte and Hazout 1996), and the percentages of haplotype
distribution
show a decreasing gradient from north to south from this Basque focus
(summarized in Lucotte and Loirat 1999): 37.4% in Catalonia, 34.8% in
Portugal, and 29.6% in Andalusia; haplotype 15 is absent in Berbers
from
Morocco. Such a cline, starting from the Basque focus and extending to
peripheral regions in Europe, has been observed by several authors
(Semino
et al. 1996; Cavalli-Sforza and Minch 1997; Barbujani et al. 1998;
Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Casalotti et al. 1999). [End Page 765]
In our own present data concerning southwest European frequencies,
haplotype
15 frequencies are heterogeneous among the five populations studied (c2
=
97.15; degrees of freedom [df] = 4), a statistically significant value
(>
9.49) with p < 0.001; there is a significant (p < 0.01) positive
correlation
of haplotype 15 frequencies with northern latitude (r = 0.924), with
the
correlation equation: y = 0.08x - 2.73.
The study of variations in the frequency of haplotype 5, the second
most
frequent (31.6%) haplotype (Table 1), is the main purpose of the
present
study. The most elevated value obtained for haplotype 5 in our series
was
for Berbers (68.9%), and percentages of haplotype distributions show a
gradient of decreasing frequency north from Morocco: 40.8% in
Andalusia,
36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque region.
Haplotype 5 frequencies are heterogeneous among the five populations
tested
(c2 = 88.97); there is a significant (p < 0.001) negative correlation
of
haplotype 5 frequencies with latitude (Figure 2).
Haplotype 5, the "Berber haplotype" (Lucotte et al. 2000), therefore
allows
assessment of the patrilineal North African gene flow into Iberia. For
the
corresponding matrilineal gene flow, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analyses
have
already shown that the Iberian Peninsula is differentiated in terms of
levels of genetic diversity and presence of unique lineage groups
(Córte-Real et al. 1996). In this last study it might be considered
that the
North African Berber branch had some input into Iberia (quantified as
approximately 10% in Spanish mtDNA lineages, 7% in Portuguese, and none
in
Basque).
Initial studies on genetic markers corresponding to nuclear gene
frequencies
in human populations in the Iberian Peninsula (Bertranpetit and
Cavalli-Sforza 1991; Calafell and Bertranpetit 1993) have shown that
the
first principal component (PC) of gene frequencies (the percentage of
variation explained by this factor being 27.1%) is that between people
originally of Basque and non-Basque descent. The second PC (14.5% of
variation explained, and 41.6% cumulated) points to the genetic
divergence
between Catalonia and the central and south central parts of Iberia.
The
third PC (12.3%, and 53.9% cumulated) concerns the Mediterranean as
opposed
to the Atlantic regions. The fourth and fifth factors cover a
reasonable
portion of variance (9.6% and 9.0%, respectively), but they were more
difficult to interpret. No factor examined in these studies seems to
involve
the southern Iberian Peninsula, and the authors concluded that it was
unlikely that the North African genetic contribution would be easily
detectable by these methods of analysis.
In fact, a more recently published synthesis (Arnaiz-Villena et al.
1999),
based on genetic markers in Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and North
Africans, supports substantial gene flow from paleo-North African
populations to Iberia. Some genetic studies, in particular on the HLA
system
(Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1995; Martínez-Laso et al. 1995; Arnaiz-Villena
et
al. 1997), have shown Iberian populations to be more closely related to
North African populations than to the rest of Europe. In a recent study
(Gómez-Casado et al. 2000), Moroccan Algerians show the closest genetic
distance--based on HLA class I (A and B) and class II (DRB1)
markers--followed by Berbers, Spaniards, and Basques. North African
input
into Iberia may be close to 20%, as shown by nuclear CD4/Alu markers
(Flores
et al. 2000b). It seems that the significance of the genetic links
detected
between North Africa and Iberia reflect both an ancient common
substratum
(Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1999) and, to a lesser degree, possible contacts
between Christians and North African Muslims (A.D. 710-1492) in Iberia
(Kandil et al. 1999), who had a Berber genetic substratum.
Recent data on Y-chromosome haplotypes (Flores et al. 2000a) show that
Iberian Peninsula DNA samples provide evidence of some North African
gene
flow, as reflected by their having a comparatively higher frequency of
DYS19A (this allele having also its highest representation in North
Africa).
As for haplotype 5, a west-east gradient emerges for the frequency of
DYS19A
in North Africa. Because of the strong linkage disequilibrium between
the
two alleles in the DYS19A/YAP haplotype, this gradient could also exist
for
this later allele.
Acknowledgments We acknowledge in particular S. Berriche, P. Guérin,
and F.
David for DNA extraction and hybridization experiments. The present
research
is included as our contribution to the Genetic Diversity Program that
has
been established for European populations. We thank Professor
Arnaiz-Villena, Madrid University (Spain) for helpful comments in the
successive versions of our manuscript.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GYPSY INFLUENCE
A mistake which many observers make when visiting Spain is to presume
that
the large number of Gypsies to be found there (estimates are that there
are
now over one million in Spain alone) are Spanish. They are not, and
this can
contribute to a mistaken impression of nature of the population. The
Gypsies
are an originally Indian, but now quite mixed, population which has
spread
all over Europe, as evidence by this distribution map, dating from the
year
2000:
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