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Serenasailor
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Serenasailor
Post Number: 406
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 02:39 am: | 
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I think all of the non-black races descended from Satan. That is why we ppl of African descent should not be so quit to mix our blood with them.
We are the only true Isrealites! We were the first ppl on earth! We should love our race and our heritage.
The white man is the true devil. All of the non-negroid races which have physical similarities to him are his descendants. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 04:32 am: |
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Serena,
That is RACIST.
Seriously.
All human beings.....are HUMAN.
We all are capable of the same Evil and the same Goodness.
Just because one group got the GUN first--and have the most power; it doesn't make them any more evil than those who WISH they were him.
If you lived in Africa long enough, you would see first hand---that ALL MEN are capable of the same deeds.
And this is REALLY RACIST and WRONG---what you wrote.
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Roxie
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Roxie
Post Number: 774
Registered: 06-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 08:44 am: |
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Serena, my father thinks just like that and now has become the shame of Meharry, the shame of his family, has no money, no friends, and no sanity left.
We love you here too much to lose you. Don't become another casualty.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2029
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 01:48 pm: |
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I don't hold to those views myself but I know a guy who does and he is a computer professional works around white people all the time and he is making five figures and owns a home and is a family man--save for smoking too much I can't think of any ill effects he is having--
Go figure. |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 04:26 pm: |
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Seriously, Serena, what you wrote is simply not true. The same God that made us made them; they are not descendants of Satan. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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Add that to this: I number among my friends and associates a number of right wing, Bible toting Black Conservatives. I mean some of the stuff that comes out of these Negroes mouths will make you howl in frustration.
A while ago we were talking and I just asked them, "Do you think the white man is the devil?'
"Oh yes! No question!" They said.
I mean, go figure! |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 255
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 05:41 pm: |
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All people are of african desent, brainiac.Invest in a couple of anthropology books and see where your ridiculous postulate fits in.Or, you could do what Chris did.Be christian because the white man told you to.No, wait.That wouldn't work, either.That pesky Adam and Eve thing.Hmmm.Looks like no matter where you look all people are descended from a single original source.But that would make your opening line be just plain ignorant, wouldn't it?Naaah.That can't be right.Can it? |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 06:46 pm: |
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"Be christian because the white man told you to."
And you accuse Serena of being ignorant. Physician heal thyself. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 256
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 07:13 pm: |
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Christianity is the white man's religion.Black folks did not practise it until their owners set a system of punishnents and rewards in place.I view black christians in exactly the same way I that I view black republicans.Either a moron that is simply blind to what is happening around them or the worst sort of sell-out to his own people.I make no apologies for this view.If you are offended by this let me just say again that you are christian because the white man told you to be.Or maybe your mother or her mother, but at some point this was shoved down the throat of an ancestor of yours and the poison has been passed down to you.I have accused SS of being ignorant on a number of occassions because that is exactly what he his.If you think that you have chosen christianity, then you need figure out where you got that silly notion from and trace it back to it's white source and then you will not feel the gut level emotional compulsion to start quoting the bible to people when they point out the source of your religious convictions. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 07-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 07:31 pm: |
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Hey Rustang. As always, I love your posts. Pure knowledge.  |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 257
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 07:39 pm: |
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Why, thank you Tonya.I've been a little under the weather for the last couple of months,but I'm now up and about again. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4310
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 07:49 pm: |
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Angles? Devils? Depends on whose creating the myth. As they say, the only thing wrong with Christianity is Christians. Then there are the Jews who proclaim themselves to be the chosen people with a monopoly on Jehovah, while Muslims have evolved into being Allah's grim henchmen. At the root of these religions is the credo "fuck everybody but us, because God is on our side. Not. God is omni-presence in the human spirit. Forget all of the edifices of ceremony and judgment and doctrine. Me, I'll take a place in the pew of my inner sanctuary and listen to the silent enlightenment that being one with the universe makes it possible for me to contemplate. Oooooohm |
Brownbeauty123
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 09:06 pm: |
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What is everyone's religion under this thread?
I don't want to get flamed but I was raised Baptist--I'm 22 and that is all I know for now.
Like many I question the Bible and Christianity as a whole.
Rustang, I respect your opinion. But it is very very *hard* to tell African Americans your radical view on Christianity--especially the part about it being a *white man's* religion--not only will they not listen but will label you a *devil woshipper* for questioning the Bible and God.
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Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 258
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 11:10 pm: |
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I haven't found it hard at all to tell AAs, or anyone else, for that matter, my views on anything.And yes, I have been called many things by many different people.It never ceases to amaze me how black folks can embrace a book that is pro-slavery, riddled with obvious errors and promotes a social order that is as f**ked up as a football bat.Black folks never seem to question why they were handed this crock for their own religion when it was a given in the legal system that blacks had no soul.That was one of the main arguments offered for denying us the right to vote after the 13th ammendment was passed.They want us to be saved, yet they believe that we have no soul?Anybody else have a problem with that?As long as you have hope for a better time of it in the next life you won't be too thoroughly motivated to try to change this one.And now the pendulum is starting to swing back in that direction.Your vote now means nothing.Between re-districting and computerized voting machines with no paper trails, you are now officially completely disenfranchised.With the economy becoming more and more top-heavy on a daily basis, your economic opportunities are shrinking away to nothing.These baptists need to take on a more napoleanic system of divination to figure out who's side the gods are on.The guy with the biggest cannons and the best trained troops, that's whose side the gods are on.At what point do people concede that their bleeting and whining and praying for better days just ain't working and undertake a more active form of participation in their destinies?We see an idiot here whose main concern is how blacks are being portrayed in pornography?And this is a site that should be the voice of the intelligentsia.The best of the best.And his foolishness is treated almost like a serious topic of discussion.Niggah, puleeeeease.There is an awakening coming, but it will be one of hardship.But hard times make hard people and maybe then some lasting changes for the better can come about. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 923
Registered: 08-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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Rustang, you're actually a LOT more intelligent than I thought you were!
I'm happy to say that I have/have had friends who were: liberal christians, jews, muslims, hindus, and pagans; fundamentalist christians, jews, muslims, hindus, and pagans.
They were ALL hypocrites (but the liberal pagans were to a much lesser degree, interestingly). LOL |
Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 335
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 03:05 am: |
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Serenasailor --
What is this thread really about? Hmmm…
A bunch of brown-black people who will never escape their own brown-black skin and imposing insecurities while idiotically vilifying non-black races?
Or, maybe they’re just a bunch of brown-black people who simply don’t want to be who they are, and unwisely relegate themselves to bashing each other because of who they are not.
Or, maybe they’re just a bunch of hapless brown-black people who because of their Negroid phenotype, unsuccessfully attempt to un-Negroid and un-black themselves by naming their kids LaQuanda and Traquetta and pathetic bullshit like that. Hey world, there’s a black person on the phone!
Or, maybe they’re just a bunch of really black niggaz who will always be a bunch of really black niggaz and just feel cheated because everyone else on the planet is not a really black nigga or a really purple-black nigga.
Or, maybe they’re just a bunch of sorry ass dummies who are basically pissed off at the fact that their mothers didn’t abort them, thus leaving them to languish in a world thriving on the desired acceptability of that prized Euro-look. No big lips, no black lips, no flat wide noses, no peasy heads with kinka-bugs living for free on the nape of a neck, no ashy feet, no side-by-side likeness with a silverback gorilla (though apes do have straight hair), no Ebonics (whatever the fuck that is - it will only qualify your ignorant ass for a job picking up dead roaches with a pair of broken tweezers), no pressed hot-combed hairdos stiffed parallel to the ground without the wind blowing, no nostrils so big that you could drive a Mack truck through them, and we could go on and on and on.
Or, maybe these stupid muthafuckas are just upset at the fact they will never be high-yellow, light or white, or anything near it. Not even golden. Damn. Like it matters… To them, it really does. Or, doesn’t it? Maybe that’s why many brown-black and purple-black people choose to chase and marry up with one of those high-yellow ass(+) people, or more. Yup, no real rush here to marry the Buckwheats and Aunt Jemimas of the world.
Or, maybe these folks just can’t stand the fact they can’t prevent others from interracial dating and marriage and having mixed-race children. Aw, what the hell. Why not just flip the world the bird? The world doesn’t give fuck about your black ass. Oh! Your brown-black ass, that is.
Or theoretically, is this just a chat championed by a group of highly depressed and disenchanted brown-black people (and a few non-black trolls) who don’t have anything else to do but incessantly bitch about what life isn’t, and how unfair it is? Maybe they should go without oxygen for about five minutes, or maybe six, or seven, or... If they survived that, then there’s a strong likelihood that their appreciation for being who they are would go unchallenged, because they would truly appreciate themselves, without regard to who appreciates them.
Life’s a bitch! No. Life’s two bitches in the bed with Fred who is dead and covered with red. Maybe Fred should have changed his name to Ed, or maybe he should have just fled.
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Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 259
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 09:07 am: |
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So, even the silverback has better hair than I do? Damn!I just can't catch a break anywhere, it seems.I believe that you might have have hit the nail squarely on the head as far as SerenaSailor's problem goes.Extended oxygen depravation.SS, you just keep on blaming all of your life's disappointments on the machinations of the Seed of Satan.Don't worry about the quality of your decision making.I'm confident that that set of unquestioned assumptions you enter into every day with is entirely valid.It's got to be evil spirits that are holding your stupid ass down. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 07-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:19 pm: |
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Rustang:
"All people are of african desent."
Moonsigns:
Thank you, Rustang, for pointing out this truth. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1085
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
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I have always found it interesting that, in some circles, Christianity is called "the white mans religion" when Christ wasn't even white. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 926
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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"Christianity" isn't the religion that Jesus observed or promoted. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 928
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:45 pm: |
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Also, the religion was spread by white men throughout various indigenous (sp?) lands where they had no use for Chrisitianity before. Those who refused to accept it were branded "heathens" and savages. Of course, usually, accepting it also meant learning the white man's languages, way of dress, etc., and basically dropping any of their "savage" ways (ie, any of their own customs).
The Japanese seemed to be the only ones (to my knowledge) that had a clue. |
Doberman23
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Doberman23
Post Number: 298
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 02:07 pm: |
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all christian based religions are built on the business of gettin money & power... happy easter! |
Doberman23
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Doberman23
Post Number: 299
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 02:10 pm: |
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oh yeah... serensailor... your a retard. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2039
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 02:15 pm: |
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Rustang, you are proof that you can't judge a book by its cover. I would have taken you for one of them Holy Ghost prayer warriors-- |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 260
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 05:47 pm: |
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To Moonsigns I'd like to point out that Jesus must have been white.Just look at all of those paintings of him. It is called the white man's religion because that is exactly what it is.They were sure making a big deal out of how god's current vicar on earth is not an italian.How big a deal would it be if he wasn't white? Nobody knows because that's never happened.
Chris, I can't imagine what I might have said to give anyone the impression that I am one of those folks that tries to hedge his bet by sucking up to the gods.I came into this world with nothing but two strikes against me and when I leave this world folks that knew me will say that I managed to battle back and then knocked one out into the parking lot.My faith is in my brain and my back and on those rare occassions when they were insufficient I just came up short and then made another run at my objective.I have always eventually prevailed because I am a lot more warrior than prayer.I will tell this to any of the young brothers and sisters that will listen.Quit crying about that foot on your neck and start chewing on the leg it's attached to.That's when things start looking up for you. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 05:58 pm: |
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Rustang:
"Just look at all of those paintings of him."
Moonsigns:
In my opinion, the paintings of him are merely the artists desire to have a "savior" that physically reflects their person--despite the Bible clearly stating that there should be no "image" of Christ created by man. Unfortunately, such images have brainwashed many into believing a lie.
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Doberman23
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Doberman23
Post Number: 304
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:34 am: |
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rustang i'm a leg man too! i do get a taste breast alot at times though. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 262
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:38 am: |
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Moonsigns, I understand perfectly that jesus was about as white as Grace Jones.People like to have their gods look like souped-up versions of themselves, though.Except for black folks.I don't think that christianity would have nearly the drawing power that it does in the black community if the head honcho wasn't a blue-eyed white dude.I'm not sure what that says about us, but it can't be good. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 105
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 01:27 am: |
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"I think all of the non-black races descended from Satan. That is why we ppl of African descent should not be so quit to mix our blood with them.
We are the only true Isrealites! We were the first ppl on earth! We should love our race and our heritage.
The white man is the true devil. All of the non-negroid races which have physical similarities to him are his descendants."
LOLLOL...this post is so funny...they actually decended from us...lol |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 106
Registered: 02-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 01:28 am: |
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"Seriously, Serena, what you wrote is simply not true. The same God that made us made them; they are not descendants of Satan."
right...that's jsut basic common sense |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 02:20 pm: |
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"It never ceases to amaze me how black folks can embrace a book that is pro-slavery,"
Please cite passage and verse of this books pro-slavery stance.
"riddled with obvious errors " - Please name one.
"and promotes a social order that is as f**ked up as a football bat." What social order would that be?
It seems to me that you have believed everything that the "white man" has told you about the bible and have not bothered to read the book for yourself. The bible is the inspired word of God. It soundly condenms chattel slavery and all practices of white supremecy.
Noone forced me to become a Christian and no one shoved it down my throat. This is a decision that I came to. It was an act of my own free will.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2048
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 02:43 pm: |
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Rustang, you must be a bluesman. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 263
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 09:33 pm: |
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Shyfox,I have nearly memorized the bible. How many gaderene demoniacs were there?Mathew says two, Mark says one.At least one of them is wrong.There's a verse in II corinthians that says 'Let your women keep silent in the church, for it is not permited unto them to speak'.Is that something that you practise?I think not.Neither does anyone else.(social order-subservient females) Paul said outright for the slaves to be good slaves.The southern politicians used the bible to justify not freeing their slaves.If you had read the bible, or a history book, you would have come across these things also.If you like, I can go on for days on this.Nothing personal, it's just a stupid book. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 932
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 09:54 pm: |
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The only book of the bible worth reading at all is Ecclesiastes.
I've read all of the new testament twice, wasn't impressed.
I started reading through the old testament, but got bored when they started counting goats and chickens. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2256
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:45 pm: |
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Rustang said:
I understand perfectly that jesus was about as white as Grace Jones. People like to have their gods look like souped-up versions of themselves, though.Except for black folks.I don't think that christianity would have nearly the drawing power that it does in the black community if the head honcho wasn't a blue-eyed white dude.I'm not sure what that says about us, but it can't be good.
Tonya:
Amen, brotha! Preach on. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 264
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:53 pm: |
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Chris:I do enjoy listening to blues, but I also listen to a pretty odd mix of other things.There are basically two things that make or break a record for me.How thoroughly the performers have mastered their craft and how seamless the interface between what's in their heart and what's in my speaker seems to be.I just went out to take a look at the CDs sitting in the front seat of my car just to get a random, unprepared sampling of what I actually am listening to right here, right now and the stack consists of The Violent Femmes,Gladys Knight and the Pips,Perry Como, Green Day, Buddy Guy, Social Distortion and, of course, Hendrix.In the back seat is everything from Celtic ballads to Bach to System of a Down.My wife says that it looks like nine different people must be driving it and eight of them have horrible taste. |
Jackie
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 167
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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Rustang ?? The Violent Femmes?? Whaaaaaaaat ? |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 265
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:17 am: |
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The Violent Femmes is a fascinating group for a number of reasons.They come up all aces on those two things I look for.Their first alum is the only record that I've ever heard of that went triple platinum without once appearing anywhere on the Billboard top 100.Their second album is the only record I've ever heard of that the record company, after having recorded it, packaged itand was sending it out the door, did everything possible to make sure that it didn't make any money.I have a live album of theirs that has one song about a guy throwing his daughter to her death down a well,one song that has only one verse that repeats over and over that says Dance! Dance Mutha Fucka, Dance! You're such an ugly mutha fucka! Dance! One song about a kid asking his dad for the keys to the family car so he can take a girl out, get her drunk and have sex with her.And there is no parental advisory sticker on any of their records.That all sounds like a pretty odd sort of deal to me.It's like the entire industry is trying to pretend that they never happened.Except for when the critic for the Rolling Stone said that Gordon Gano's(the singer/song writer/ guitar player) voice could clear a room faster than a methane explosion. And, above all, they are just so amazingly good at what they do. |
Jackie
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 168
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:07 am: |
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You really do listen to a variety of music. So do I. : ) |
Abdi85
Newbie Poster
Username: Abdi85
Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:32 am: |
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Wow Serenasailor! Is this a joke or has this been a slow decent into madness? And Rustang your very observant and smart, I am excited to see what Shyfox's response to you will be (doesn't look good for her) as I remeber reading poritions about property rights (slaves) and handing it down from father to son, I think it was in the old testament, maybe the new, not really sure but if you know please let me know. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 266
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:43 am: |
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SerenaSailor needs to go ahead and change his user I.D. to Moe Ronic or something.He's not joking.He really is that stupid.
I'm sure that Shyfox has the best of intentions concerning her faith and I certainly do not intend to light into her as if she was an idiot like SS because I was raised better than that.I don't get into shouting matches with ladies.That is never acceptable behavior.She's just a bit on the naive side when it comes to taking a preacher's word for something.Age will straighten that little bit out for her all by itself.Had she not jumped out of left field and called me ignorant we wouldn't even be having this little exchange.I must confess that I truly enjoy arguing with ChrisHayden (couldn't really say how good it's been for him )but there is no way that I would ever unload on a young lady like I would him.I hope that she doesn't get the idea that she must muster all of her forces and defend the faith against from this godless heathen. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 933
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
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I love the Violent Femmes! They are so cool. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4314
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:16 am: |
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I'm surprised you didn't include Marily Manson in your eclectic collection of favorite musicians, Rustang. LOL. Actually, I like music from all genres also, and the skill and honesty you look for relates to my idea that all outstanding musicians are Zen masters because they have an inner metronone and a 4th dimension. This is especially true of bluesmen, and of course, Charlie Parker. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 267
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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It is my opinion that marilyn manson is completely void of creativity and skill.I do, however, enjoy listening to Alice Cooper, which would be the primary source Marilyn Manson goes to steal something.I would agree that the truly gifted musicians seem to be tuned in more clearly to the heartbeat of the universe. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2257
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 01:48 pm: |
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Cynnique, if you don't mind, could you explain a little more about your belief in the universe? It sounds interesting.
Also, I just expanded my music collection to include Nina Simone, Coltrane, Billie Holliday, Fred Astaire, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, and Thelonious Monk. Does anyone know of any other must haves to complete my collection? I'm new at this. I decided to start collecting the older stuff because the new stuff is straight garbage. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:42 pm: |
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The Violent Femmes were one of my fav bands when I was a teenager--I loooove TVF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1092
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:44 pm: |
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I still have cassette tapes of TVF--LMAO--what a blast from the past!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 268
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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It just goes to show you.Good things transcend race, gender, ethnicity and age. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 937
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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Now if you LOVE Wyclef Jean or Rage Against The Machine, raise your hand. |
Shemika
Regular Poster
Username: Shemika
Post Number: 46
Registered: 02-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 05:09 am: |
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understand where Serenasailer is coming from. People used to say that whites were descendants of Satan all the time because of their history of brutality toward blacks. I think Malcolm X even said so once in one of his speeches and that’s why it became so popular.
There is also a bible passage that states Satan will come as an angel of light, which refers to deception and falsehood. Some people have related that to how whites try to pass off their light skin as making them righteous – thus behaving like Satan. The same goes for the passage about some people being white washed tombs that have death on the inside. The bible also states not to treat, look on, or judge people by their outward appearance as whites make it the basis for everything.
I noticed that the Old Testament documents a lot of slavery but in Jeremiah 34:8 God tells them to release the slaves. In the New Testament it mainly refers to slavery metaphorically, telling them to be slaves to God and by seeking to save souls you are a (godly) slave to others. In 1 Corinthians 7:23 it says we are brought with a price and are not to become slaves of men.
A lot of people also say that the type of slavery during most biblical times was not the same as that blacks endured here, based on race/color. But it was closer to servitude and often voluntary. Remember Isaiah (?) who agreed to be a servant for seven years in exchange for his wife Rebecca? And Rebecca's father tricked him into working another 7 years. In some cases that was the way people earned a living, and it not that far from it today, most have no choice but to work for someone and we still get done in sometimes.
I also heard that the passage requiring women to be quiet in the church had to do with them often disrupting the service to ask questions because many did not read at that time. You're still not supposed to interrupt church services in most congregations. I don't see that as sexist as a lot of Muslim customs.
In any case, white people not only manipulate the bible to promote their true religion (white supremacy), but they also use the law, the education system, the media, science and biology. It's all a matter of interpretation. These others are certainly more easily used then the bible, which has to be taken out of context to serve that purpose. And that is why they didn’t want slaves to learn to read.
Every time we straighten our hair, mimic them and hate the way we and/or authentic blacks look, we are serving their religion. Because anything they touch is distorted to symbolize the worship of them.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2276
Registered: 07-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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Great post Shemika. Malcolm also spoke of the use of words like "dark" and "black" to describe bad/evil. I've noticed that news reporters and important public figures use these words liberally when referring to bad/evil. It would be interesting to know how many of us think that that is ignorant/rude/offensive.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2065
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:36 am: |
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Understand I don't harbor or condone such beliefs myself, but if a white man can believe black people are subhuman and monkeys and can rise to run giant corporations (Howard Hughes) or be President (take your pick) or Senator (take your pick) I guess one could harbor the belief, though incorrect,that white people are devils and suffer no ill effects. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 275
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
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Once more, you demonstrate an astounding lack of understanding, Chris.White people can hold all sorts of ignorant ideas and still float to the top because the entire system isn't geared towards holding them down because they are white.Their margin for error is broad.Black people are being held to a much higher standard.If any chink in the armor,no matter how small, can be shown, a black person will have a very tough time overcoming the media extravaganza that will follow.In case no one recalls, Malcolm turned his back on that ridiculous proposition and was gunned down like a dog by the proponents of that exceedingly ignorant and hateful point of view. |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 05:49 pm: |
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Rustang: "How many gaderene demoniacs were there?Mathew says two, Mark says one.At least one of them is wrong."
Shyfox: Not so. One author mentioned both men while the other chose to focus on one. Just because one got a mention and the other did not, does not mean that the other one was not there. Have you ever been out with a group of friends, and someone approached you. this someone knew all of you but only said hello to your friends, but did not speak to you. Does that mean that you were not there. I believe that the same kind of thing happened here. One of these men struck the author as being worthy of mention. the other did not.
Rustang: 'Let your women keep silent in the church, for it is not permited unto them to speak'.Is that something that you practise?I think not."
Shyfox: The passage that you are referred to is found in First Corinthians, not second specifically at 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 35. I don't know what was meant by this passage to be quite honest. I believe this passage was speaking of married women, most specifically the wives of the speakers in the church. He instructed them to ask their husbands at home the things that they did not understand and not disrupt the service. I would imagine that it would be embarrassing for any minister to have his own wife display ignorance of or a misunderstanding of what he is preaching and trying to teach others. if he can't convince a member of his own household, how is he suppose to reach strangers. This is my own take on this. It is not to be found in the bible. Also, the male dominence as practiced in this society is not spoken of in the bible. Paul wrote that men are to love their wives as they love themselves.
Rustang: "The southern politicians used the bible to justify not freeing their slaves."
Shyfox: They were lying. Why do you put so much credence in what those bigots said? The Lord forbade the children of Israel to practice the slavery that was practiced in this country. The Lord does not contridict himself. "If a man be found stealing any of his bretrhen of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandies of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you." Deuteronomy 23, 24. The children of Israel were slaves in Egypt for 400 years simply because they were Israelites (slavery based upon race). That is what happend with us; because the whites though that were inferior we were meant to be their slaves.
Rustang: Nothing personal, it's just a stupid book.
Shyfox: I'm sorry that you feel that way.
I did not jump out of left field to call you ignorant. You called Serenasailor ignorant. It was more of the pot calling the kettle black that I was responding to. Everyone is ignorant of something.
You called yourself godless heathen. I did not. I was not shouting, I don't know why you felt the need to.
Can't we reason together? |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 07:34 pm: |
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"I'm sure that Shyfox has the best of intentions concerning her faith and I certainly do not intend to light into her as if she was an idiot like SS because I was raised better than that.I don't get into shouting matches with ladies.That is never acceptable behavior. She's just a bit on the naive side when it comes to taking a preacher's word for something.Age will straighten that little bit out for her all by itself.Had she not jumped out of left field and called me ignorant we wouldn't even be having this little exchange."
I am not naive. I also do not believe that the bible condones the slavery endured by African Americans in this country - that is chattel slavery. I don't base that on what someone else said, I took the time to read the bible myself.
I am not an idiot and I don't believe that Mr. Sailor is either. As for you lighting into me, well, I would hardly call it that. You make assumptions about things that you know nothing about. You don't know me and you don't know how or why I embraced Christianity.
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Lil_ze
Regular Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 07:57 pm: |
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one point i must disagree with regarding shemika's post. when our people straighten their hair, this is not mimicing whites or hating the way we look. straightening our hair has nothing to do with trying to emulate whites. isaiah 3:2- our foremothers styled and straintened their hair with crisping pins (hot combs). our forefathers likewise curled, waved and straightened their hair and beards. there is nothing wrong with doing this (but, i don't think lard should be used). there exist natural straighteners. the whiteman started that stigma here in america of hair straightening as trying to be white. truthis our people did these things in ancient times, long before we were enslaved. our hair can be straightened, braided or worn as is. but straightening our hair is NOT trying to be white. we straightened our hair long before the whiteman created the idea that straightening our hair was trying to be white. think of all our boys and girls who have their hair in "corn rows" or "braided". the hair is combed straight before it is put in braids. now what if our people decided to just leave the hair straight and not braid it? this doesn't mean they are trying to be white or emulate whites. our hair texture gives us the freedom to do many different things with our hair. but don't be fooled-the fact that some of our people straighten there hair is NOT us trying to be white. these are more lies to confuse our people. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 122
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 09:52 pm: |
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I agree.....not all blacks who staighten their hair striaghten it to look white...i know good and well that trying to look white wasn't in any way what i was thinking about when i was putting perms on my hiar. I use to think that perms would make it more manageable (but i later learned that that wasn't true)and plus i also liked curly and wavy hair textures but i always felt that bone straight was boring. If i was actually trying to be white when i was perming my hair i would have dyed it blonde however i never really cared for blonde hair and always preferred jet black hair over other colors because coal black hair has a certain shine to it that other colors don't have (especially when it's thick). I also like red colored hair.
Anyway, i dont think we will ever be able to truely tell the reason why a black woman may perm her hair unless we know her perosnally and KNOW for a fact that she has self hatred issues. Althiough i do understand the self-hatreed argument very much because self hatred is a huge part of our community. I jsut don't think the self hated within our community is as exaggerated as many try to make it out to be though. I live in houston texas (which is in the south) and there are TONS of black women who are going natural so the straightening thing is slowly dieing out. If i had to take stats i would say that about 50% of the black women in houston are wearing their hair natural now and if they arne';t wearing it natural then they are wearing nappy hair textured weaves.
i know a lot of black women perm their hair for different reasons. some perm it in order to show the legnth of the hair while others perm it because they beleive it will be more manageable . Some perm their hair in order to be able to do certain styles. Perms actually harden the hair making it easier to roll with rollers so they feel that if they perm it then the style will hold curls longer. Others perm their hair because they like curly and wavy hair textures. Plus many perm thier hair because as they are small girls their moms put perms on thier hair and they therefore grow up without knowing any other way to take care of their hair but to perm it. They simply don't know how to care for their natural hair because they'd never worn it before and feerr it will break out if they try going natural. This was one of the anxieties that i felt when i first started going natural.
However i do think there is a certain segment of black women who perm thier hair to look white.
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Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 126
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
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our ancestors wore braids too and braids actually striaghtened nappy hair quite a bit, especially when you take the braids out. so i can see why someone would say africans weren't imitating whites when they were straightening their hair.
however, there were other tribes who tried to get their hair to stand up on top of their heads as high as they could. the higher the hair was the closer it meant you were to God. If the hair is in any way striaghtened it can;t do this. So nappy, unstraightened hair was a symbol of beauty.
I think all it is is that africans realized the versitility of their hair and celebrated it. It wasn't a matter of them trying to look like something they weren't back in those days.It was simply a matter of style. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 103
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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Lil_ze, very interesting, I didn't know black women straightened their hair in ancient times. Learn something new everyday.
I never got the 'black women who straighten their hair are trying to look white' argument anyway. To me it comes across as a way to limit Black women's appearance--our hair is the most versatile. We can straighten it, texturize it, curl it, crimp it, braid it, etc Most Black women don't just only wear their hair straight 99% of the time anyway. Several go from braids, to straight, to short, to curly etc. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 940
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:47 pm: |
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It's not the straightening that's a big deal to me. The big deal is in degrading those who don't wish to do so and teaching girls from a young age that it's not "normal" for a black girl to have nappy hair.
The big deal is in having every texture and color of hair considered normal and beautiful and even more "professional" than nappy hair. I don't care about hair straightening, as much as I'm dismayed that so many feel they MUST straighten their hair. The big deal is that it's considered more beautiful to have a relaxer or a weave or bleached hair, than it is to have an afro or locks.
So, if someone straightens their hair for a change of look, but is willing to consider natural hair if they want another look at a different time, they have their head on straight and simply like variety. On the other hand, if someone would be mortified to find their hair nappy, and really believe that black hair is "bad" hair, and only find beautiful the straightest, longest, blondest hair, they are only copying the white look.
In Mississippi, it's basically IMPOSSIBLE to have nappy hair and a boyfriend or friends. Relatives, neighbors, friends, and even strangers WILL make a big deal out of it and if they get angry at you will even use "nappy headed" as an insult. Sometimes, they have no reason to be angry at you at all, but will try to insult you by calling you "nappy headed" only because they truly find it REVOLTING and DISGUSTING and think it's a sign that you're nasty/dirty/ungroomed/don't think highly of yourself, etc. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 104
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:16 am: |
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Renata, you are so on point with the idea of young girls learning that their 'natural hair' is unacceptable.
There is this show on Vh1 called 'Can't Get A Date' (it's a really great show, very realistic and there was this very cute African American woman on there who was rocking an afro. and to my surprise in the makeover they did not STRAIGHTEN her hair or give her a weave, they simply just changed her wardrobe--very surprising on a white network)anyway
I was watching this show with my black male friend who absolutely LOATHES nappy hair on a Black woman--period. He hates it. He despises an Afro, and secondly he intensely hates short & nappy hair on a Black woman like a thousand burning suns. His view are that it's 'acceptable' for black males to wear their hair natural because they're men--and kinky hair is a masculine feature. On a black woman it's intolerable. He voiced that every Black woman in America should learn how to grow their hair long, and wear it straight.
as we were watching it, he continuously kept saying he would never in a million years look that woman's way because she had a kinky afro. She was not worth the time of day. And went on to make several comments on how she was in dire need of a 'relaxer' or 'pressing comb'. I was so pissed with him, and called him every name in the book--but just like so many small minded black males who feel that way--I got called an 'angry bitter black woman'.
So these are the reasons why so many black women are 'mortified' to be seen with their hair in it's natural state all due to black men's negative reaction to it.
The only ethnic look that black men will *tolerate* is tyzillions IMO only because the hair is half braided with long flowing weave at the ends. |
Misty
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Misty
Post Number: 130
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 09:52 am: |
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Renata, i completely agree with your post and you make a lot of sense, however i just thiknk that the obsession with straight hair for black women is starting to die out more and more.
Brownbeauty said:
"So these are the reasons why so many black women are 'mortified' to be seen with their hair in it's natural state all due to black men's negative reaction to it."
i agree with this to a certain extent but i feel like the blame can be put on both sides for the reason black women straighten their hair.
Becuase, mothers have more influence over their childrens minds than their fathers have. This may be because the mother carries the child in her womb for 9 months and i also heard that childrens hair and braisn tend to develop more like their mothers than their fathers. This is even true for when the father is in the house everyday. We have so many black mothers that reinforce the idea that nappy hair is ugly to both of their children (sons and daughters).
My mom told me that the reaosn my hiar grows like it does (longer on the right side and shorter in the middle than on both sides) is because she use to brush the sides of her hair more than the middle. So the womb has the most effect on a childs brain. Plus, the mother is always the first teacher of the baby.
anyway, alot of these mothers who teach their kids that nappy, natural hair looks bad on a woman have the nerve to get mad when their sons bring home white women...LOL...what did they expect? If they tell their kid nappy hair is so ugly their sons are going to want to get as far away from it as possible.
But i think things are different accoridng to which city you live in. I noticed that when i started wearing my hair natural i got a lot more looks from men (both black and white) and more men were trying to talk to me than when i had been perming it. I dont know why,...maybe it's the styles i wear it in or maybe it's the length it grew after i stopped perming it. When i was perming my hair it wasn't nearly as thick, long and full as it is now. Now if i pull it it goes to the center of my back and is extreemely thick. It tends to grow quicker now. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 105
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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Misty,
White people used to always seem fascinated with my hair when I wore it in curly braided tyzillions. They would compliment me on how pretty it was, and that it was amazing that a person could be able to do so many small braids in a person's head. Caucasions have a general interest in braids. And White men seem to have hit on me more with braids than when I wore it striaght. Not that I care about White men hitting on me because i'm not attracted to them at all--just that they seem to appreciate me more with an 'ethnic' look than the general 'straight hair' look. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 941
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
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Misty, maybe more men liked you when you were natural because you look better natural? Some people look better relaxed, some seriously look better natural.
It does vary according to the city. In Atlanta, no one cares one way or another. In Jackson, MS, they still make a big deal out of it even now.
I grew up as a teen in Jackson, and my entire teen years I never dated a black guy. I had crushes on a LOT of them, but they would NOT date "nappy haired" girls, and had no problems in telling whoever would listen. Two white guys liked me (I didn't like them because one was too short, and one was too thin...oh, the superficiality that is teendom LOL). My first boyfriend (when I was 17) was jewish. They weren't "fascinated" with my hair at all, they didn't care one way or the other. I can HONESTLY say that women in Jackson wear long blonde weaves because black men there PREFER it.
I didn't know anything about the "politics" of hair. I didn't relax my hair simply because I liked it better natural. Not to attract or repel anyone. I had "wild" hair and loved it because it made me look different from everybody else. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 942
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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I did find a great husband. When I met him, my hair was like Nnenna's (on America's next top model). He looked past that. I met him in Alabama. When I wore that same style in MS, I was called a lesbian. He still doesn't care what my hair looks like, as long as I don't complain about it.
My hair has been: long and natural, long and relaxed, medium and natural, medium and relaxed, short and natural, short and relaxed, medium and texturized, and now it's long and texturized. I like it texturized better because I have the versatility to wear it natural looking, or to blow dry it straight. But I would have no problems in cutting it all off if I changed my mind. I've done it often enough before. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 943
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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I've never had braids....don't have the money or the patience! $200 and 5 hours? OMG!!!!
Afros cost nothing and only take 10 minutes to comb into place. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 277
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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Shyfox, As far as the demoniacs go,I would ask myself what quality it was that made one man possessed by thousands of demons mundane and the other one noteworthy.This wasn't a casual meeting on a street corner.If one of the authors neglected to mention that 'other guy' then that is still human error in my mind.If that sort of explaination is sufficient for you, then fine, to each his own.To be perfectly honest with you, though, I think that you believe that explaination's valid about as much as I do.You are grasping for something to make your doubts disappear.Want to to know what else I think?Someone must have explained that one to you because you seem entirely too smart to have figured it out for yourself.If I was going to pick one account over the other for accuracy I'ld have to go with Matthew's.At least he was there.Mark hadn't even been born yet.He was relying on the recall of his aging uncle Peter, which would account for the way that they also give the events as being in different locations that were about 50 miles apart.But, it could have happened right between those places, so that isn't really a deal breaker.
As far as the keeping silent thing goes,what's not to understand?If you are A) a woman and B)in the church, keep your mouth shut.You aren't allowed to talk in here because you are a woman.That's why the catholic church doesn't have any women priests. Paul was a Roman and that idea is perfectly consistant with Roman thinking.Nothing mysterious or complicated about it.It's like when he says that thing about how nature teaches that it's a shame for a man to have long hair.The only example in nature that comes to mind is the lion, but that doesn't teach me that it's a shame for the male to have long hair.Nature doesn't teach that, Roman nature teaches that.Romans wore their hair short and the barbarians had their's looking all wild and crazy.So even though Jesus himself and all of the other apostles had long hair, Paul the Roman just couldn't go for looking like a Gaul.Thanks for pointing out that it's first corinthians, not second.It has been a while since I actually picked that book up, something like 40 years.Senility is more problematic on some days than others.Also, in that same section where Paul tells men to love their wives as christ loved the church, he also says for the wives to submit to their husbands.That sounds kind of male dominated to me, but I could be wrong.
As a side note,I wasn't shouting, either. I was just saying as a 'just so you know' that you and I can discuss this until the cows come home and my end of it will always be civilized.I know that I didn't light into you.I was just letting you know that I do not intend to.However, while it is true that we are all ignorant about something, Serenasailor is ignorant anout everything as far as I can tell. |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 40
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 02:39 pm: |
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Rustang:
"Shyfox, As far as the demoniacs go,I would ask myself what quality it was that made one man possessed by thousands of demons mundane and the other one noteworthy.This wasn't a casual meeting on a street corner.If one of the authors neglected to mention that 'other guy' then that is still human error in my mind.If that sort of explaination is sufficient for you, then fine, to each his own.To be perfectly honest with you, though, I think that you believe that explaination's valid about as much as I do.You are grasping for something to make your doubts disappear.Want to to know what else I think?Someone must have explained that one to you because you seem entirely too smart to have figured it out for yourself.If I was going to pick one account over the other for accuracy I'ld have to go with Matthew's.At least he was there.Mark hadn't even been born yet.He was relying on the recall of his aging uncle Peter, which would account for the way that they also give the events as being in different locations that were about 50 miles apart.But, it could have happened right between those places, so that isn't really a deal breaker."
Shyfox: I apologize if my last post in response to you was unclear. I will do my best to rectify that situation here. A shallow reading of the bible and or any book or situation would turn up any number of what seems to be contradictions, I am sure. In this case, you have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of calling this witness; what are the authors trying to prove. They are trying to prove Christ's deity, that He is God and has all power. They were not trying to prove the number of men that he cast demons out of or the location of the exorcism. Both accounts state that Jesus cast our multiple demons. This is proof to me that He has the power to do that. Now, for there to be a contradiction that would show the errancy of the bible, one account would have to state that Christ was able to cast out the demons, and the other account of the same event would have to state that he did not or could not cast out demons. To me this would be a deal breaking contradiction.
Just because you would have done things differently does not mean that the way that the authors of the bible recounted things is wrong.
I know that you insulted me in your post; you think that I am stupid and that is your perogative. I assure you that I am not. I won't respond in kind. This often happens when someone can't attack the message, they go for the messenger.
I don't believe that Mr. Sailor is ignorant of everything. I like him.
Rustang: "Also, in that same section where Paul tells men to love their wives as christ loved the church, he also says for the wives to submit to their husbands.That sounds kind of male dominated to me, but I could be wrong."
Shyfox: In Ephesians, Paul said that a man should love his wife as he loves his own body. "He that loveth his wife loveth himelf. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it; even as the Lord the Church." Ephesians 5:28 and 29. This does not sould like domination to me; more like love, care, and support.
Rustang: "As far as the keeping silent thing goes,what's not to understand?If you are A) a woman and B)in the church, keep your mouth shut.You aren't allowed to talk in here because you are a woman.That's why the catholic church doesn't have any women priests. Paul was a Roman and that idea is perfectly consistant with Roman thinking.Nothing mysterious or complicated about it."
I think that this is just another example of when a bigot seizes upon biblical passages, quotes it out of context and distorts it to justify their own bigotted behaviour. I am not referring to you, but those who use this passage to keep women out of the pulpit.
Rustang: "It's like when he says that thing about how nature teaches that it's a shame for a man to have long hair.The only example in nature that comes to mind is the lion, but that doesn't teach me that it's a shame for the male to have long hair.Nature doesn't teach that, Roman nature teaches that.Romans wore their hair short and the barbarians had their's looking all wild and crazy.So even though Jesus himself and all of the other apostles had long hair, Paul the Roman just couldn't go for looking like a Gaul."
Shyfox: Man is made in the image of God is a higher creation than a lion or any other animal. Also, how do you know that Jesus and the disciples had long hair?
Paul was a roman citizen, but he clung to the traditions of his people, that is before becoming an apostle. He did not follow roman traditions. The romans were pagans who worshipped a pantheon of pagen gods. I don't think that Paul or any other observant Jew would have emulated them.
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Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 106
Registered: 03-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 07:24 pm: |
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Renata, wow you NEVER dated a Black guy? Is your current husband white or black? And how does he view black women's hair in general?
I've never been attracted enough to a white man to date him--they all remind me of a Ted Bundy or something. This is defintely something that I need to work on because it's wrong to view white men in that category but everytime I see one I can't help but to imagine them as some lying snakeoil salesman. Everytime a white man approaches me I automatically that he's trying to sell me some shotty ass promotional product when that's never the case. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 107
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 07:29 pm: |
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How do white men differ from black men in bed? |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 945
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 06:33 am: |
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I never dated a black guy during my TEENS. Only when I left MS did I find that black men didn't make such a big deal of my nappy hair. (Even though I was relaxed the first time I dated one at 20).Most of the guys I dated during my teens were Jewish or Indian. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 946
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 06:43 am: |
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My husband isn't white. What gave you that idea? |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 280
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
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Shyfox,I think that this might be one of those situations in which I need to keep my eye on the ball.I said that the two accounts of the demons were contradictory.You offered one possible explaination of how that contradiction might have occurred,and then explained how, in your opinion,since the central doctrinal point was about Jesus' ability to cast out demons, the contradiction was irrelevant.That looks like you are agreeing that this is, in fact, a contradiction.Which it is.That one is a slam dunk.It isn't about demons or divinity, it's about arithmetic.Somebody got the story screwed up, which means the book contains human error.
On the women keeping quiet in the church, let me first say that I do not agree with that position at all.The merit of one's insights do not hinge on their gender in any way.But Paul meant just exactly what he said, and that statement is perfectly consistant with his Roman traditions.If he was not holding to his Roman traditions, it is also perfectly consistant with his jewish traditions.It is also consistant with the nearly two thousand years of christian tradition that followed, and there is nothing to suggest that he meant anything other than what he said.Why does the catholic church not have any women priests? Because the second pope, the man that wrote two thirds of the owners manual for this machine, said so.Any theories that suggest that, while it is true that he said night, but he actually meant day would have to be able to answer certain questions in a satisfactory way.Why no women priests?Did Paul himself ever set a woman in charge of one of the churches?Where, in The Acts of the Apostles, do we see Paul placing a woman in charge of a group of men? This is another slam dunk.The only problem is that you, like me, do not agree with Paul's position.
Let me just say this, and then I'll leave you alone on this. Your path is your path, not mine.Walk it the best way you know how.If you do this in a manner that is kind and honest, you and I would be friends forever and just agree to disagree on certain things.If you do not agree with Paul's position on the role of women, then be ok with not agreeing with it.If you agree with his position, be ok with that, and conduct yourself in a manner consistant with that belief. |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 42
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 01:27 pm: |
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Rustang: "That looks like you are agreeing that this is, in fact, a contradiction.Which it is.That one is a slam dunk."
Shyfox: I doubt seriously that the point of the biblical accounts was to documents the number of people Jesus casts demons out of in that region. How silly would that have been. The uncontradicted point made in both is that Jesus cast out demons.
As for Paul's roman traditions; may I remind you that Paul was an Jew. He did not follow the traditions of the pagaen romans.
It is you choice to believe or not to believe as you so choose. But to me, to risk eternity on what a perceived contradiction is the height of folly.
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Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 43
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 01:45 pm: |
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Rustang: "Let me just say this, and then I'll leave you alone on this. Your path is your path, not mine.Walk it the best way you know how.If you do this in a manner that is kind and honest, you and I would be friends forever and just agree to disagree on certain things.If you do not agree with Paul's position on the role of women, then be ok with not agreeing with it.If you agree with his position, be ok with that, and conduct yourself in a manner consistant with that belief. "
Shyfox: God gave us all the gift of eternal life if we would only accept it by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. If you don't want to do this, that is your perogative and no one is going to force you, not even God. You simply do not want to believe the bible; again that is your perogative. You have seized upon a a signle line to justify your disdain and rejection of God and His word. Again that is your perogative. The consequences of that decision are dire.
All of the posturing points, or slam dunks as you call them, you think that you gained will count for nothing when on the day that you stand at the door of eternity and give account for the choices that you have made.
We all know that is possible for two people to witness the exact same event and in relaying the event, each will give details that the other did not. Like I said, you have to look at what is trying to be proven. If the thing to be proven is spoken by both witnesses, then you have uncontradicted proof of that thing or event.
I believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God. I don't understand all of it but I don't doubt for a moment that all of it is true. Men have interpreted biblical passages for years in such a way to support their own bigotted positions and ideals.
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Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 281
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 03:29 pm: |
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And we come full circle.You have articulated my original point far more clearly than I ever could."I don't understand it, but I believe it anyway because if I don't I will be tormented throughout eternity." This is not the rational conclusion of a critical inquiry.This is reciting what was whispered in your ear as an infant.Black people are christian because white people told them to be.
It's not one or two lines that I have locked onto, there are many, many more .These are just a couple of the more obvious used as test pieces to see what sort of reception this line of inquiry receives.I am confident that the ramblings of one old man that you will never actually meet will have little, if any, impact on your world view, but, just so you know, god will not be angered by your using the brain that he gave you to examine things a little more closely to determine if you, yourself actually believe them.I'm sure that he (she? It?)would concur when I say that nothing is above question.And now,you may have the last word. |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 44
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 07:33 pm: |
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Rustang: "And now,you may have the last word"
I don't have the last word. Neither do you. God does. And He is a He. White people haven't told me to do anything. Please resist the urge to put words in my mouth, if you can. You come off so smug and condescending.
You haven't proven anything.
Rustang: "You have articulated my original point far more clearly than I ever could."I don't understand it, but I believe it anyway because if I don't I will be tormented throughout eternity."
You have even forgotten your own point, which was, that (Your words) the bible is a stupid book. Pathetic. |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 45
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 08:27 pm: |
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Where has your "critical" inquiry led you? Has it been able to determine who created the very ground that you walk on, the animals, YOU? No? Do you completely understand just how this world and the things that live thereon came to be? No? I suppose we should all just vanish because you don't understand it all.
It's called faith. We all have it in some degree in one thing or another. |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 111
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 03:39 pm: |
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Renata,
I assumed your husband was white since you mentioned you never dated black guys in your teens--sorry.
You never know these days, more and more black women are marrying white so ya never know
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 955
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 09:53 pm: |
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BB, well, sadly, if you have an Afro and live in MS, you don't have much choice but to marry a white guy. I believe that I would have married one, if I had remained there.
To Shyfox and Rustang, I've read the bible and the Christian god seems to be VERY racist (or so those who wrote the bible makes him seem so). I'm not a racist person at all. I refuse to believe that a god would have less tolerance of differences in people than I, a mere human, would have. And to have such intolerance and hatred towards his own creation and to find them savage, enemies, and basically MISTAKES....well, who made the mistake in making them? Can't be much of a god. So, if there is a real god somewhere, I refuse to INSULT him/her by assuming that he's less tolerant of different people than an average 1 year old would be.
Also, something's not right with the Christian god: he teaches us to separate from other people, pre-judge them by their nationality or skin color, and hate them if they're different. But it's a trick of the DEVIL that people should get along and live side by side. What kind of god is a bigger hate-mongerer (sp?) than the devil? Doesn't even make common sense. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 956
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 09:59 pm: |
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And if he made me African, and would now tell the rest of the world that I should be hated for what he made me.......why should I worship this god, again? I apparently am not on his priority list... |
Brownbeauty123
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Brownbeauty123
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
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I've never read the Bible entirely..I've only been taught the more *PC* good things when I attended Sunday school on occassion
but if that is true what you interpreted Renata, than why do so many Black people live and die by this religion? |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 957
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:27 pm: |
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BB, because that's what they were taught. Indians live and die by Hinduism, Jews live and die by Judaism. They've been taught it from birth by parents who were doing what they thought was best.
Did they show you the parts of the bible:
where god told the Israelites (during a war) to kill every male, and every woman who has slept with a man, and keep the virgins and girls for wives (I'm sure against their will)......
where a woman should be killed on her father's doorstep if her husband doesn't believe she's a virgin on her wedding night (never mind that he could have numerous wives and CERTAINLY isn't a virgin)....
where slaveowners can beat their slaves and not be punished if the slave is ok after a day or two...
where you must be punished for hitting a pregnant woman and she loses her child only if the father is upset by it...
where you can't eat already dead meat because it's unclean, but you can sell it to foreigners...
where the prophet Ezra rebuked Israelites because they married foreigners (in the same land where it was ok for Lot's daughters to be impregnated by their father)?
where the "punishment" for someone found guilty of rape is to marry the rape victim and pay her father...
where a woman is shameful if she speaks in church, but she should ask her husband at home if she has questions (and if she's single or her husband doesn't attend church, I guess she's just out of luck)...
I could go on and on, but I can't recall it all.
People give me a hard time because the "bible says you shouldn't eat seaweed or plants from the sea". I point out that the bible says that you shouldn't consume pork or grain alcohol, either. They then turn around and say, "well, Jesus made all foods clean in the new testament".
Well, what does that tell you about SEAWEED, dipstick? Another thing I hate is HYPOCRITES:
"God doesn't want us to drink on Sunday because it's his day".....but the other FIVE days are yours to get sloppy drunk all you want.
I'm going to stop now, because I could go on forever. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 958
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:30 pm: |
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Sorry, SIX days. |
Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 48
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
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"BB, because that's what they were taught. Indians live and die by Hinduism, Jews live and die by Judaism. They've been taught it from birth by parents who were doing what they thought was best.
Did they show you the parts of the bible:
where god told the Israelites (during a war) to kill every male, and every woman who has slept with a man, and keep the virgins and girls for wives (I'm sure against their will)......
where a woman should be killed on her father's doorstep if her husband doesn't believe she's a virgin on her wedding night (never mind that he could have numerous wives and CERTAINLY isn't a virgin)....
where slaveowners can beat their slaves and not be punished if the slave is ok after a day or two...
where you must be punished for hitting a pregnant woman and she loses her child only if the father is upset by it...
where you can't eat already dead meat because it's unclean, but you can sell it to foreigners...
where the prophet Ezra rebuked Israelites because they married foreigners (in the same land where it was ok for Lot's daughters to be impregnated by their father)?
where the "punishment" for someone found guilty of rape is to marry the rape victim and pay her father...
where a woman is shameful if she speaks in church, but she should ask her husband at home if she has questions (and if she's single or her husband doesn't attend church, I guess she's just out of luck)...
I could go on and on, but I can't recall it all.
People give me a hard time because the "bible says you shouldn't eat seaweed or plants from the sea". I point out that the bible says that you shouldn't consume pork or grain alcohol, either. They then turn around and say, "well, Jesus made all foods clean in the new testament".
Well, what does that tell you about SEAWEED, dipstick? Another thing I hate is HYPOCRITES:
"God doesn't want us to drink on Sunday because it's his day".....but the other FIVE days are yours to get sloppy drunk all you want.
I'm going to stop now, because I could go on forever."
Peace. Goodbye.
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Shemika
Regular Poster
Username: Shemika
Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 02:56 am: |
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I felt straightening the hair is like worshiping whites because a lot of blacks are ashamed and self conscious about having natural black textured hair. And many criticize and look down on those who don't conform – which is exactly what whites used to do. Whites in the US have historically insisted that blacks (females especially) straighten their hair and treated those who didn't do so worse then the conformers. Just as they treated the light skins better than those darker, because it’s a sign of white supremacy.
That's why in the 60's black revolution the greatest accomplishment to freeing black minds was the bold step of wearing the ultimate of natural hair, the afro, and being proud of it….thus the saying, ‘I’m black and I’m proud.’ This stood against all the shame and disgust they’d been taught to feel about black textured hair. And because blacks stood together in support of it black textured hair became a sign of black strength, unity, beauty, and respect worldwide – because we took matters into our own hands and refused to allow our self worth to be defined by the likeness of whites. Trying to assimilate by changing what makes us black never gained true respect, just a place in the color caste system. Unfortunately black textured hair became a fashion fad because white textured hair remains the standard look for all.
As for the history of Africans straightening their hair, that was unheard of from what I've learned until the black woman in America (forgot her name) invented the hot comb and made a fortune. Or perhaps in other racially integrated and colonized nations where white supremacy is prevalent. Michael Jackson with his straightened hair and lightened skin is a prime example. Someone did a great post on his transformation being representative of black Americans in the extreme.
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Shyfox
Regular Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 49
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 02:06 pm: |
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To Renata: I'm sorry, I can't let this go. I will respond to your posts later. I'm at the end of my lunchbreak and don't have the time right now. |
Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 73
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 09:23 pm: |
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it was madame c.j. walker that popularized the staightening comb. we all have the right to believe what we want. but i know that straightening your hair has nothing to do with trying to be white. our people did these things in ancient times and we do them now. our hair texture gives us the freedom to do many creative things with our hair, including curling,braiding, blowing out, and straightening our hair. we do and should continue to style our hair as we see fit. if our people straighten their hair, they SHOULD NOT feel in anyway that they are trying to be white. we can do many things with our hair. it doesn't mean we are trying to be white or anything else. we are being creative. |
Shemika
Regular Poster
Username: Shemika
Post Number: 48
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 09:43 pm: |
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My point is that if it hair straightening wasn't about assimilating to whiteness, blacks would not be ashamed of having black textured hair or try to make others who do feel ashamed or that something is wrong with them. And that is indeed often the case and always has been since the influence of white supremacy. Call it what you will. |
Lil_ze
Veteran Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 75
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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"blacks would not be ashamed of having black textured hair"? who said blacks are ashamed of having "black textured hair"? where is the evidence of this. have the 35 million or more black people (just in america) been asked if they are ashamed of their hair? ive never heard of any thing like 35 million people being asked if they are ashamed of their hair. so how do some people make sweeping blanket statements (of which there is absolutely zero proof) like, "blacks are ashamed of their hair". is a girl who braides her hair is she ashamed of having "black texture hair (what ever "black texture hair is)? ive seen many black people who have various hair textures. there is NO proof or evidence to say something like, "blacks are ashamed of having "black textured hair". there just is none. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 965
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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No. They just don't like "NAPPY" haired girls.
That could be ANYBODY.
(snickers)
And if you really don't believe it, listen to the girls (who may even work with or go to school with you) nearly PANIC when they "need a perm cuz my hair is getting nappy". Or BETTER, don't get a touchup for a couple of years (it won't kill you, I promise) and see what's said to you, to your face by BLACK people (and interestingly, NO ONE ELSE).
And it says a lot that MOST of us have what's considered "bad" hair. |
Shyfox
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Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 51
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 10:36 pm: |
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Renata:"To Shyfox and Rustang, I've read the bible and the Christian god seems to be VERY racist (or so those who wrote the bible makes him seem so). I'm not a racist person at all. I refuse to believe that a god would have less tolerance of differences in people than I, a mere human, would have. And to have such intolerance and hatred towards his own creation and to find them savage, enemies, and basically MISTAKES....well, who made the mistake in making them? Can't be much of a god. So, if there is a real god somewhere, I refuse to INSULT him/her by assuming that he's less tolerant of different people than an average 1 year old would be.
Also, something's not right with the Christian god: he teaches us to separate from other people, pre-judge them by their nationality or skin color, and hate them if they're different. But it's a trick of the DEVIL that people should get along and live side by side. What kind of god is a bigger hate-mongerer (sp?) than the devil? Doesn't even make common sense."
Shyfox: You are so wrong. The Lord God is not a racist. He created all people. The bible does not depict Him as a racist. He gave his one and only begotten son, to die for the sins of the entire world so that we can be saved.
Also see these passages: Exodus 22:21; Exodus 23:9; Jeremiah 22:3; Zechariah 7:10; Leviticus 19:33; Exodus 12:49; Leviticus 19:10,19:34 and 24:22; Deuteronomy 9:6; Genesis 26:4; Isaiah 11:10, 42:1, 49:6, and 66:19; Matthew 15:22-28: Mark 7:25-30; Luke 17:12-19; John 4:9; John 4:27; Acts 10:28; Matthew 13:47-49; Matthew 25:35; Luke 14:16-24; Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:1-4: Acts 8:27-38; Deutoronomy 10:17; Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 2:6; 1 Peter 1:17; Ephesians 6:9; Matthew 22:16; Mark 12:14; Luke 20:21; Exodus 23:3; Leviticus 19:1; Deuteronomy 1:17; Deuteronomy 16:19; 2 Chronicles 19:7; Job 32:21; Proverbs 18:5; Proverbs 24:23; Proverbs 28:21; 1 Timothy 5:21; James 2:9; Romans 3:22; Romans 10:12; Matthew 23:12: Matthew 18:4; 1 Peter 5:6; Mark 9:35; Revelation 7:9-10.
Renata: "where god told the Israelites (during a war) to kill every male, and every woman who has slept with a man, and keep the virgins and girls for wives (I'm sure against their will)......"
Shyfox: There were no homeless shelters or orphanages in those days. If these women had been left alone they would have either wound up as prostitutes or dead. Instead, they got to live as wives in real families. Now if God were the intolerant racist that you say that He is, why did He instruct the Israelites to marry these foreign women?
Renata: "where the prophet Ezra rebuked Israelites because they married foreigners (in the same land where it was ok for Lot's daughters to be impregnated by their father)?"
Shyfox: The Israelites were rebuked for marrying these women because these foreign wives turned the hearts of their husbands away from the one true God to the worship of pagaen gods that the wives worshipped in their native lands. The Lord did not tell Lot's daughters to sleep with their father. This was their own idea. They were afraid that the entire world had been destroyed, not just Sodom and Gomorrah. Just becaus an act is mentioned in the bible, does not mean that God condones it.
Renata: "where a woman is shameful if she speaks in church, but she should ask her husband at home if she has questions (and if she's single or her husband doesn't attend church, I guess she's just out of luck)..."
Shyfox: Like I said earlier, I don't understand this passage. I have already offered one possible explanation for it. If women are forbidden to speak in church, then why didn't Paul give all of the other churches the same instruction?
Renata: "where a woman should be killed on her father's doorstep if her husband doesn't believe she's a virgin on her wedding night (never mind that he could have numerous wives and CERTAINLY isn't a virgin).... "
The wages of sin is death. The law was given so that we can know what sin is. Jesus came to save us from our sins so that no man or woman (who accepts Him) has to die for their sins, but can have eternal life. Do you remember the passage where an woman caught in the act of adultery was brought to Jesus. The Jewish authorities wanted her to be stoned to death. Indeed, stoning was the penalty under the law for such an offense. But Jesus did not stone her and forgave her sin. Knowledge of sin comes through the law, but mercy, grace.forgiveness of sin, and eternal life come through the Lord Jesus Christ. Now that does not mean that we can stone people who don't believe in God or accept Jesus for any sins that they committ. Like the members of that angry crowd who had picked up stones to throw at the adultress, we all have sinned and fallen short. Judgement and revenge are not ours, they belong to the Lord.
Renata: "where slaveowners can beat their slaves and not be punished if the slave is ok after a day or two..." Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." Exodus 21:21.
Shyfox: I don't really know what that means. I think that it means that the loss of income because the slave is injured and cannot earn money is punishment to the offending slaveowner. Losing money hurts. That's what I think. I could be wrong.
Renata: "where you must be punished for hitting a pregnant woman and she loses her child only if the father is upset by it..."
IF men strive, and hurt a woamn with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischeif follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. and if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for buning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Exodus 21:22-25.
Shyfox: Doesn't sound like the offender gets away with anything. The passage said that the offender will surely be punished. The offender did not get away with anything.
Renata" you can't eat already dead meat because it's unclean, but you can sell it to foreigners..."
Shyfox: The foreigners did not worship or follow God. Certain foods were unclean to the Lord and He forbade the Israelites, who worhsipped and followed Him, to eat it. The foreigners had their own gods and worhsip practices.
Shyfox: Where in the bible does it state that God hates Africans? I don't recognize this god that you describe. He is not the God of the bible and Who is worshipped by Christians and Jews.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 976
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 08:39 am: |
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Shyfox: There were no homeless shelters or orphanages in those days. If these women had been left alone they would have either wound up as prostitutes or dead. Instead, they got to live as wives in real families. Now if God were the intolerant racist that you say that He is, why did He instruct the Israelites to marry these foreign women?
ME: It would have been too much to leave the women alive (who had been married before) or to adopt the girls as DAUGHTERS instead of wives. Or is your god not bright enough to instruct them to START an orphanage. And again, it's interesting that only the VIRGINS got a new start as someone's wife. I guess his followers were too good to be sullied by those non-virgins who were only so because they had been married before.
Shyfox: The Israelites were rebuked for marrying these women because these foreign wives turned the hearts of their husbands away from the one true God to the worship of pagaen gods that the wives worshipped in their native lands. The Lord did not tell Lot's daughters to sleep with their father. This was their own idea. They were afraid that the entire world had been destroyed, not just Sodom and Gomorrah. Just becaus an act is mentioned in the bible, does not mean that God condones it.
ME: Pagan, Muslim, Hindu, WHATEVER. How can we learn to be tolerant of other people, and god isn't? This is the SAME crap that's happening today where we feel we're so superior because god is on OUR SIDE and the rest of the world is nothing. Now I see where it was learned.
Renata: "where a woman is shameful if she speaks in church, but she should ask her husband at home if she has questions (and if she's single or her husband doesn't attend church, I guess she's just out of luck)..."
Shyfox: Like I said earlier, I don't understand this passage. I have already offered one possible explanation for it. If women are forbidden to speak in church, then why didn't Paul give all of the other churches the same instruction?
ME: He did give all other churches the same instructions. It's in the bible to be read by ALL christians. If he only wrote a certain letter to apply to only certain people, there's no point in any of us needing to read it. OR tell us which parts of Paul's letters he meant ONLY for certain people, because there's no reason for anyone else to read it if it doesn't apply to us.
Renata: "where a woman should be killed on her father's doorstep if her husband doesn't believe she's a virgin on her wedding night (never mind that he could have numerous wives and CERTAINLY isn't a virgin).... "
The wages of sin is death. The law was given so that we can know what sin is. Jesus came to save us from our sins so that no man or woman (who accepts Him) has to die for their sins, but can have eternal life. Do you remember the passage where an woman caught in the act of adultery was brought to Jesus. The Jewish authorities wanted her to be stoned to death. Indeed, stoning was the penalty under the law for such an offense. But Jesus did not stone her and forgave her sin. Knowledge of sin comes through the law, but mercy, grace.forgiveness of sin, and eternal life come through the Lord Jesus Christ. Now that does not mean that we can stone people who don't believe in God or accept Jesus for any sins that they committ. Like the members of that angry crowd who had picked up stones to throw at the adultress, we all have sinned and fallen short. Judgement and revenge are not ours, they belong to the Lord.
ME: So god had to wait for Jesus to come along before he could forgive women for being whores? And where is the law written for men who marry without being virgins? And that brings up another point...this "all-powerful" god of yours had to wait for his son to be killed before he could forgive anyone? He couldn't forgive us on his own? WE HUMANS can forgive UNCONDITIONALLY. When was the last time you asked for something in return for forgiving someone?
Renata: "where slaveowners can beat their slaves and not be punished if the slave is ok after a day or two..." Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." Exodus 21:21.
Shyfox: I don't really know what that means. I think that it means that the loss of income because the slave is injured and cannot earn money is punishment to the offending slaveowner. Losing money hurts. That's what I think. I could be wrong.
ME: A slave is a MAN, not income, not money. So a slave being beaten is punishment to HIM, not punishment to the owner because MONEY is lost. Never mind the money lost, what about the SLAVE/MAN and his feelings and his need for justice?
Renata: "where you must be punished for hitting a pregnant woman and she loses her child only if the father is upset by it..."
IF men strive, and hurt a woamn with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischeif follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. and if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for buning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Exodus 21:22-25.
Shyfox: Doesn't sound like the offender gets away with anything. The passage said that the offender will surely be punished. The offender did not get away with anything.
ME: as the woman's HUSBAND will lay upon him, and as a JUDGE determine. What if they don't care? Why won't he be punished just for hitting her (even if she doesn't lose her child)?
Renata" you can't eat already dead meat because it's unclean, but you can sell it to foreigners..."
Shyfox: The foreigners did not worship or follow God. Certain foods were unclean to the Lord and He forbade the Israelites, who worhsipped and followed Him, to eat it. The foreigners had their own gods and worhsip practices.
ME: Anything unclean for one man, is unclean for any other man. It's interesting that it's clean enough for "foreigners" or pagans, but not up to par for christians and jews, like they have no standards for keeping their own bodies healthy.
Shyfox: Where in the bible does it state that God hates Africans? I don't recognize this god that you describe. He is not the God of the bible and Who is worshipped by Christians and Jews.
ME: He is the one who said that some nations are beneath others. And in this modern time those considered inferior countries are usually African and Asian countries. Or can you tell me exactly which countries are the inferior ones.
I didn't answer the first one. I don't have time to read the bible right NOW. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 977
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 08:48 am: |
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And also, why ALL males? Why not just males 15 and older? 2 year old boys, 5 year old boys couldn't be ADOPTED? Or is your god not bright enough to arrange that or instruct others to do it? Just kill him...if he's male or a non-virgin female? Because who wants to screw them anyways? If they can't be screwed, they don't even deserve their life.
Just gruesome. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 978
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 09:08 am: |
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I'm sorry. I don't mean to offend anyone, but the bible really pisses me off. I love ALL people, not just the christians/jews, not just non-foreigners, not just heterosexual, not just virgins. When I look for justice and peace in the world, I love those who are PEACEFUL and humble and tolerant and loving REGARDLESS of their nationality, citizenship status, PREVIOUS sexual experience (just because a woman isn't a virign, doesn't mean she's a whore, especially if she's only a non-virgin because she's married), personal belief system, race, or sexual orientation.
It doesn't even make COMMON SENSE that the god who MADE all of these people would not only hate them, but instruct every one else to hate them as well.
I love EVERYONE. If your god (who you say MADE everyone) could love them all as well, I could probably see him as my leader. But as of now, with his beliefs and what "he's" teaching you christians (who are the MOST hateful, war mongering, "entitled" people on earth) I can't see myself following that BS. |
Shyfox
Veteran Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 57
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 09:14 am: |
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"And also, why ALL males? Why not just males 15 and older? 2 year old boys, 5 year old boys couldn't be ADOPTED? Or is your god not bright enough to arrange that or instruct others to do it? Just kill him...if he's male or a non-virgin female? Because who wants to screw them anyways? If they can't be screwed, they don't even deserve their life.
Just gruesome."
Shyfox: Because these same males would grow up to slit their throats. This was a different time altogether, with a different way of thinking.
God knows the heart of each man; and being God he can see down through time. Maybe He forsaw the consequences of letting all of the males live and the non-virgin females live. Have you ever thought of that?
Gruesome is also ambushing attacking the old, weary, sick, and young when they are leaving Egypt. Gruesome is despoiling the lands and settlements of people who are trying to make a home for themselves. Gruesome is the unprovoked attack and murder of people who have done you no harm. These same people who you accuse the Lord of showing no mercy to, did all of these things to the children of Israel. They also practice the vile ritual of child sacrifice and other abhorrent practices. They showed no mercy, so there were not shown mercy. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. Matthew 5:7 |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 979
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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You're thinking that God is so simple that he seriously believes ALL of the non-virgins will fight back and NONE of the virgins will?
I say fight those who fight you...and don't lump ALL of one type together.
When you say ALL males will fight back, ALL non-virgins will fight back, ALL virgins will not fight back, you're doing the SAME THING as those who assume ALL blacks are this, ALL whites are this, etc.
We bitch and moan about not lumping all of one group together, but will accept it in god. Now I know where supremacists and nationalists get it from. |
Shyfox
Veteran Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 58
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 01:02 pm: |
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Renata: "You're thinking that God is so simple that he seriously believes ALL of the non-virgins will fight back and NONE of the virgins will?
I say fight those who fight you...and don't lump ALL of one type together.
When you say ALL males will fight back, ALL non-virgins will fight back, ALL virgins will not fight back, you're doing the SAME THING as those who assume ALL blacks are this, ALL whites are this, etc.
We bitch and moan about not lumping all of one group together, but will accept it in god. Now I know where supremacists and nationalists get it from."
Shyfox: Neither you nor I know the hearts of men; nor can we see down through times that will be or into possible futures. God can. He knew what would happen if these people were allowed to live. So I would hardly call it lumping people together. |
Shemika
Regular Poster
Username: Shemika
Post Number: 49
Registered: 02-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 08:05 pm: |
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Lil_ze:
"who said blacks are ashamed of having "black textured hair"? where is the evidence of this. have the 35 million or more black people (just in america) been asked if they are ashamed of their hair? ive never heard of any thing like 35 million people being asked if they are ashamed of their hair. so how do some people make sweeping blanket statements (of which there is absolutely zero proof) like, "blacks are ashamed of their hair". is a girl who braides her hair is she ashamed of having "black texture hair (what ever "black texture hair is)? ive seen many black people who have various hair textures. there is NO proof or evidence to say something like, "blacks are ashamed of having "black textured hair". there just is none."
Shemika:
I'm black, and I’ve met plenty of blacks who are ashamed of having black textured hair. Some would rather go bald from a bad perm then go natural. The preference for straight Euro looking hair is one of the main reasons why weaves are so popular. No doubt a lot of black men want their women to have as close to white characteristics as possible. And I've had to deal with jerks that had a problem when I wore mine natural - many of them black. So any black person claiming otherwise must have their head in the sand. I suppose you're the same type of person that believes racism is a thing of the past along with various other fairy tales. Either that or perhaps you aren't around full blacks much or are not one your self. Maybe that’s why you don’t know what black textured hair is.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 982
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 05:13 am: |
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Christians love their god because they're very xenophobic, and your god justifies that. (No where does it say to sell meat to non-Jews in particular, but to any general foreigner.) They hate whores, your god justifies mistreatment of even non-whores, all they have to be is non-VIRGINS. They think of slaves as MERE MERCHANDISE and not even human enough to avoid being abused, and your god justifies it. They want to kill INNOCENT people during a war, and your god justifies that.
The christian god is loved not because he's all powerful, all knowing, etc., but because he JUSTIFIES all of the hatred we have for foreigners, whores, slaves, and the "enemies" in war (even if they're innocent).
No one knows the hearts of men, but it's all too convenient for MISOGYNISTS that your god AGREES WITH soldiers who go to war and kill EVERY innocent woman except untouched virgins that they can take home for themselves. They didn't kill those non-virgins because they all had inherent flaws....however, they were ALL touched by men before, hence UNCLEAN for them.
It's all too convenient for XENOPHOBES, that their god justifies their mistreatment of foreigners. Not just non-believers, but just any general foreigner.
It's all too convenient for the RACISTS, that their god doesn't find slaves human enough to warrant the same chance to not be abused as non-slaves have.
You and I will just have to agree to disagree. |
Shyfox
Veteran Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 69
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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Renata: Christians love their god because they're very xenophobic, and your god justifies that. (No where does it say to sell meat to non-Jews in particular, but to any general foreigner.)
The christian god is loved not because he's all powerful, all knowing, etc., but because he JUSTIFIES all of the hatred we have for foreigners, whores, slaves, and the "enemies" in war (even if they're innocent).
No one knows the hearts of men, but it's all too convenient for MISOGYNISTS that your god AGREES WITH soldiers who go to war and kill EVERY innocent woman except untouched virgins that they can take home for themselves. They didn't kill those non-virgins because they all had inherent flaws....however, they were ALL touched by men before, hence UNCLEAN for them.
It's all too convenient for XENOPHOBES, that their god justifies their mistreatment of foreigners. Not just non-believers, but just any general foreigner.
Shyfox: I am a Christian. I am not xenophobic and neither is God. This is an outright lie.
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord thy God. Leviticus 19:33-34.
He doth execute the judgement of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger in giving him food and raiment. Love ye therefore the strangers: for you were strangers in the land of God. Deutoeronomy 10:18-19.
There are other scriptures of course which clearly show that your charge of xenophobia against the Lord is without merit.
Furthermore, you would have to know all Christians to fairly accuse us all of being xenophobic. You don't.
The Lord does not sanction the slaughter of innoncents. You have to remember something, the people whose fate you are bemoaning showed no mercy to a people who were leaving the land of their captivity, when they were not in a position to fight back. These same people whose fate you bemoan killed innocent babies, old people, women (virgin and non-virgin), the sick and the old.
They showed no mercy and they were shown no mercy.
The Lord did not instruct the Israelites to kill all non-virgin women in every war. He told the Israelites that if one were to see a woman of the enemy during war who he desired for a wife, then he could take her for his wife. He did not specify virgin or non-virgin.
The Lord fulfilled his promise to make Israel a mighty nation and to bring them into a land that He promised them. He decimated their enemies; He is their God and He protected them. The Lord is not slack concerning His promises.
You have made abusive and false accusations against the Lord and all Christians. If you want to hate God, that is your decision. The consequences of that decision are dire. You are willful in that decision Renata because you made it based upon lies and distortion; you won't give yourself the opportunity to base it upon a true picture of God as revealed in the bible. Again, the decision is yours.
If God hates "whores" and justifies their mistreatement, then why did He give His only begotten son to die for the sins of the whole world. That means for everyone.
God never justifies the mistreatment of anyone. You cannot cite one passage of the bible which shows that it is okay to mistreat a slave. These slaves that were beaten were being punished for something. The folly of beating a slave should have been apparant, for a sick and injured slave cannot earn money for his master. The punishment therefore of beating a slave, is the improvishment of his master. Doesn't sound like this slaveowner got away with anything. I don't know to many people who actually like being broke.
I know from experience that it bites. Again, this is my own interpretation.
I have to ask, why do you let the distortions of a bunch of racists inform a decision that has eternal consequences for you?
The Lord won't force Himself onto anyone. If you hate Him, that is your decision. Let the chips fall where they may. I have to warn you that there are dire consequences for your decision. God deals with His enemies. Make no mistake about it. Don't kid yourself.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 986
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 05:35 pm: |
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I never said I hated god. I just don't believe in the christian god. And as for the virgin/non-virgin thing, who else are "those who have known men by lying with them"?
And again, losing money is NOTHING, and it's sad and SHOULD BE sinful that the slaveowner's losing money is more of a big deal than of a slave being beaten. I wou'dn't beat a person, because maybe I respect them as PEOPLE more than I'm afraid of losing money, but I won't tell your god how to run things for you guys.
I don't let anyone's opinion of the bible color my own. I've read the bible myself (the new testament I read twice all the way through) and still own one. I only like to read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs, which I still read from time to time.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. |
Shyfox
Veteran Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 72
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 05:51 pm: |
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I do not worship the god that you describe. God is sovereign.
"And again, losing money is NOTHING, and it's sad and SHOULD BE sinful that the slaveowner's losing money is more of a big deal than of a slave being beaten. I wou'dn't beat a person, because maybe I respect them as PEOPLE more than I'm afraid of losing money, but I won't tell your god how to run things for you guys."
You take my intepretation and use it to justify your venom. It was just that, my interpretation. Beating someone is not right; the bible does not say that it is. But the fool who destroys his own property is left destitute. He brought his own punishment upon himself.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 989
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 06:22 pm: |
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Destitution is punishment only for the greedy and those who are not content with their non-material possessions alone.
There are modern philosophical types who were born rich and purposely experience it only as a means of understanding the world outside of their own. I've met one myself. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 990
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 06:24 pm: |
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One would think that a follower of a true god would find more punishment in knowing that he mistreated another human being. |
Shyfox
Veteran Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 73
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 08:27 pm: |
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"One would think that a follower of a true god would find more punishment in knowing that he mistreated another human being."
The bible does not prescribe beating a slave as punishment for an offense. |
Lil_ze
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Lil_ze
Post Number: 96
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 09:33 pm: |
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shemika: "im black and ive met plenty of people who are ashamed of having black textured hair". so in other words "blacks" are ashamed of having "black textured hair", because of the people YOU have met? this is your own personal experience. this is how the people YOU have met, feel. does this make what you say a fact? absoulutely not. so anyone who disagrees with a sweeping generalization based on the experiences of ONE woman has their "head in the sand"? how does what we are talking about have to do with thinking racism is a thing of the past? who said that? and what is this nonsense about "full black"? what the HELL is a "full black"? if you have had experiences with the people YOU have met, fine. but how can you transfer your experiences, with the people YOU have met, and say that this is the case with over 35 million people? if these are the people you are around, thats their opinion about hair. but have you or anyone else been "around" 35 million people? this has nothing to do with head in the sand, just different opinion. what the HELL is a "full black"? |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 993
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 11:04 pm: |
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Huh? When did I say that?
The slaveowner As/Is a follower of god. |
Shyfox
Veteran Poster
Username: Shyfox
Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 03:34 pm: |
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Renata: "Huh? When did I say that?
The slaveowner As/Is a follower of god."
Shyfox: Just letting you know. |
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