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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 922
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 03:55 pm: | 
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March 2, 2006
No Cinderella Story, No Ball, No Black Debutante
By SUSAN SAULNY
NEW ORLEANS, March 1 — Just before midnight on Tuesday, the young women of this city's most prominent white families waltzed and waved in flowing gowns and tiaras at the formal galas held by the oldest and most glittering krewes of the Carnival season, Comus and Rex.
Usually, there are parallel Mardi Gras balls held by the city's large, historically black Carnival organizations.
Amanda Williams and Amirah Jackson, in fact, were supposed to be among the young women whose accomplishments and dreams for the future were announced to society at largely black cotillions here this year.
But unlike the mostly white families of Comus and Rex who were able to continue their traditions in the face of Hurricane Katrina's destruction, Ms. Williams and Ms. Jackson could only daydream about what might have been in the ball gowns they never got to wear.
They were to have been presented by the oldest black Carnival society in New Orleans, the Original Illinois Club, which has been holding a tableau ball on the Saturday night before Mardi Gras since 1895. But for the first time in two generations, there was no Original Illinois Club ball, or any other debutante soiree given by the large historically black Carnival organizations. They simply are not here anymore.
Ms. Jackson and Ms. Williams, both 18, watched the Carnival season unfold without them from Frisco, Tex., a town just north of Dallas, where they had to explain to their white friends that, yes, young black women make their debuts, too.
"It was a family tradition for me; my mom did it and my grandmother did it," said Ms. Jackson, whose home was badly damaged in the hurricane. "I was going to be the first one to do it in my generation. We were all with the Original Illinois Club. My mom has been talking about it to me since I was little. Really, I just wanted to see her smile about it."
Like so many other aspects of New Orleans, Mardi Gras has long been rigidly polarized along racial lines, with its black and white adherents celebrating equally enthusiastically but almost totally separately in krewes, which are private, nonprofit clubs.
Rather than open its membership to blacks, for instance, Comus simply stopped parading in 1991 when a city ordinance banned discrimination within organizations that hold Mardi Gras parades, which rely on public money for crowd control and sanitation, among other things.
Like other krewes that stopped parading, Comus, made up almost exclusively of white men, continued to hold balls. Other krewes, like Rex, opened their membership and have held integrated parades, but the debutantes at their balls are almost exclusively white.
In the 19th century, middle-class blacks felt so excluded from the Carnival spirit that they formed their own organizations, and several of those, like the Original Illinois Club, thrived until the storm. They not only held parties, members say, but did good works throughout their communities and gave upwardly mobile blacks a needed citywide network of professional contacts.
Now their notable absences highlight the changed demographics of this shrunken city: it is largely devoid of its black middle and upper classes, while poorer blacks have begun to return to largely undamaged neighborhoods in the inner city in significant numbers. Whether the black educators, lawyers, business executives and health care workers who mostly lived in the ravaged areas of Gentilly and New Orleans East will return remains unclear.
But for those whose lives revolved around it, the Carnival season this year was a lesser celebration as a result of the loss of a unique ethnic tradition.
"It represents a very elegant part of black society that many people don't get to see — it's something you have to be privileged to see," said Phoebe Ferguson, a documentary filmmaker who lives in Brooklyn and is completing a project that focuses on black society called "Member of the Club: A New Orleans Cinderella Story."
Unlike the white clubs that have traditionally emphasized family names and lineage, the black clubs focused on accomplishment above all else, local historians say, putting emphasis on a young woman's education and suitability for higher learning and the work force.
In a city where family roots run deep, and where formality, tradition and Carnival season theatrics are among the most enduring traits, it is hard to overstate the lingering social importance of the debutante ritual. It is a coming-of-age event as integral to a certain segment of society here as Sweet Sixteen parties or bat mitzvahs are in other places.
The local newspaper, The Times-Picayune, provides extensive coverage of the balls, and publishes a special section every year profiling the debutantes who are to be introduced throughout the season.
Ms. Williams's profile, which was published in July, before Hurricane Katrina, stated that she hoped to "attend medical school to prepare for a career as an obstetrician/gynecologist." Ms. Jackson's profile had the headline, "Athlete Also an Author."
Ms. Williams, a senior in high school, had already bought seven formal gowns for events in the weeks leading up to the actual debutante ball. She had to be dressed appropriately for black-tie parties given by the court's queen and several of her maids, in addition to teas and brunches and weekends of afternoon dance practices. The rules were strict: nothing skimpy, nothing fitted, nothing black.
"There's nothing that compares to it," Ms. Williams said. "It's the way to say, 'I'm a woman now.' Everyone gets to hear your life story, your accomplishments, what you plan for the future. None of that happens at a prom; there's no comparison. You're just hanging out with your friends. At the ball, you meet other girls and form a bond. It's a social thing that also connects you to everybody who's ever come out with the club."
Many of the black clubs are hoping to hold traditional debutante balls next year and plan to invite the young women who missed their turn. But the future is uncertain.
"A lot of the organizations are struggling financially because of the storm," said Gerard Johnson, a member of the Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club, of which he was king in 2004.
Zulu, the largest black Carnival krewe, paraded this Mardi Gras but did not hold a debutante ball.
Zulu's annual ball usually draws 16,000 people to the New Orleans convention center. In lieu of the ball, Zulu held a smaller party for its members last Friday night.
Earl Jackson, a former king of the Original Illinois Club and its financial secretary, said only one of 50 members lived in New Orleans now.
"It was probably one of the saddest moments we've ever had, canceling the ball," he said, vowing that it will be back next year. "We will not let it die."
Members say the club took the name Illinois because so many of its founding members were Pullman porters on the Illinois Central Railroad — a position of some prestige among blacks in the 1890's. Over the decades, members gradually moved into the professional class, but they still cherish their roots.
"A lot of other people I know, African-Americans who aren't from New Orleans, they laugh at us," Ms. Williams said. "They say, 'You're a debutante? I thought only white people did that.' I say: 'Not where I'm from. We make our debut, and it's a big deal.' "
Although most of the Williams family possessions were lost in the flood, the ball gowns, protected in plastic garment bags, were among the only things to survive. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 923
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 03:57 pm: |
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Above is from NYT.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/02/national/nationalspecial/02debs.html?pagewante d=2&_r=2 |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1757
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 04:05 pm: |
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Yvette,
Putting the ENTIRE ARTICLE in "italics" makes it hard to read straight through.
I got through 2 paragraphs and then I had to look away from the "slanting" letters.
Maybe it's just me.
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 924
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 04:13 pm: |
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Sorry. Tried to edit, but unable to. The link above should take you to the original source-no sub fee required. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 819
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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Somewhat off topic, but I loved the scene in "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" when the drag queen (a gay black guy) went to the Black Debutante Ball. I've always wanted to go to one myself. There's just something classy about being "introduced" to eligible high class boys in your age group, rather than taking your chances with random riff-raffs on the street.
Maybe my son can one day go to one....but we're not quite high class or snooty enough, so it's unlikely. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1767
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 05:02 pm: |
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Hi Yvette 
It's OK.
I read it girl. It was GOOOOD.
Why am I not surprised about this, though?
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2014
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 05:26 pm: |
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Aren't most Black Debutante balls colorist? If I'm wrong, please correct me. And if I'm right, why should I care about this situation? Just curious.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1771
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 05:35 pm: |
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I'm sure they used to be, Tonya---
but in the last 10 years, I've noticed some really dark pretty girls in many of the Society Pages---some of them even crowned as "Debutante Queen" or whatever.
GHANA has a very serious Debutante society--the Akan tribe.
Those Akan women can drive you batty with "Ettiquette" and "Tribal Acculturation" and "WIFERY".
It's not just the "higher class" but ALL AKAN women are raised in a strict Debutante society.
My God. I could never date an Akan man.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 827
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 05:41 pm: |
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Tonya, I've never been to a Debutante ball, so I can't say. But, from what I've heard, they're usually held for daughters of doctors, lawyers, etc......so that wouldn't include me anyways. |
Babygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 250
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 08:19 pm: |
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No, Tonya, typically Black Debutante Balls are not colorist, unless of course you consider that a family's degree of "green" weighs heavily on a daughter's coming out or not.
White debutante balls were traditionally to introduce daughters who were eligible for marriage. With respect to black cotillions, it’s not about being introduced to "boys" because in more cases than not, your escorts (and you may have more than one since there are so many events associated with your coming out) are typically older brothers, cousins, or family members. You are being introduced into "society", the prestige of your womanhood, your family, your wealth, your education, and your future potential being acknowledged to others of the same or higher caliber, I think with less emphasis on the black daughter to find a husband but instead to recognize she can do and be whatever she aspires to.
My "coming out" was held in Westchester, NY with most of the girls coming from the more prominent black families in Mt. Vernon, Port Chester, etc. Our ball was hosted by the Links.
I have my cotillion photograph framed on a wall in my office and the women run the gamut of light and bright to very dark with every shade of the spectrum in between. But what’s most captivating is how regal we all look in our traditional white gowns. I’d do it all again in a heartbeat and only regret that my daughter never had the opportunity to experience it for herself.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 828
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 08:30 pm: |
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I'm glad you cleared that up for me! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4432
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 07:15 am: |
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Babygirl,
How did you and other Black debs that you know benefit from the debutante experience? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2015
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 08:00 am: |
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Nostalgic, babygirl.... It sounds like an event we can ALLLL be proud of. |
Babygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 265
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 08:03 am: |
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ABM, I was 17 at the time and personally walked away with an overwhelming sense of community and familial pride in the sheer magnitude of my abilities and my future potential. It was a public recognition in such a manner that I felt I had no other option but to be an extraordinary, accomplished woman and I was motivated to meet the task.
As well, it's almost a full year of "preparation" where you are taught skills that at the time seem rather unnecessary and even a tad pretentious but actually came in handy in my later years. I remember one particular etiquette class and a ball room dance class that I figured I would never again have use of but which actually came in handy during my corporate years and empowered me to handle myself in situations that might have otherwise been disconcerting.
And it's event where you feel unique, and special, and incredibly beautiful, and you're allowed to embrace that, revel in, and be celebrated for it. |
Babygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 266
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 08:05 am: |
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Tonya, it's an experience I wish more young women were aware of and could participate in. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4102
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 09:37 am: |
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Hummmmmm. In my little home town a community committee has been holding cotillions for the last 45 years, and the only requirement is that you have a good grade average, and express an interest in "coming out" by submitting an application and paying a fee. Then you go through tha process similar to the one Babygirl described in regard to acquiring social skills and volunteering for community work. Scholarships are also awarded to the debs raising the most money by securing ads for the Program booklet. There will be 12 young ladies making their debut this year. And there is nothing COLORIST about it. The Chicago chapter of the LINKS, also has a cotillion every year, and you do have to be recommended by a LINK, and undergo screening, but skin color does NOT enter into the picture. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4434
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 09:53 am: |
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I think colorism have tainted some cotillions of yesteryear, though the plethora of lightskinned debs was less a function of some overt paperbag test and more that the skintones of the parents of those sponsored the events (which could, indeed, be born from colorbias).
My wife used to own/operate a small etiquette school which featured a debut (of sorts). It was gratifying witnessing how girls from fairly rough environments can so quickly and naturally become very graceful young ladies. Sadly, maintaining the school became time/expense prohibitive. But it is something we'd like to do again.
The more we do the celebrate facets of womanhood OTHER than that which is featured in Hip-Hop videos the better off we'll all be as a community and society. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4104
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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I wouldn't discount classism being a factor where the LINKS cotillions are concerned. Most of the debs who come out are the daughters of doctors and lawyers and professional folk and the "entry fee" is quite high. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4436
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 10:31 am: |
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Cynique,
I would agree the participants of cotillions were likely more a function of classism than overt colorism. But colorism might have effected WHO could and could not ascend the socio-economic class hierarchy that culminates in, amongst other things, a debut.
I attended college in the DEEP SOUTH decades ago. Almost ALL of the Black coeds from the wealthiest families who'd been featured in debuts were VERY lightskinned. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2024
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 10:42 am: |
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Abm,
Dr. Fran Welsing's theory is that there is no such thing as middle and upper class in black America because she believes class=power and since blacks do not have any real power, regardless of some of our wealthier folks, we can't call it class. (I hope I worded it correctly). How do you feel about that? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4438
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
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Tonya,
I would agree with Welsing's theory to the extent that you judge Black people place in the overall American society/culture.
Black people are 13% of the nation's population yet own LESS than TWO PERCENT of All American wealth (Saudi Arabia owns SEVEN PERCENT of American Wealth).
So, yes, as a whole ALL of Black America is in the Lower Class. (And THAT'S why I take great umbrage with what Bill Cosby ranting against "the lower classes of Blacks" a couple springs ago.)
But I do think there exist some class distinctions amongst Black people that influence where we go, what we do and who we do (and don't) become. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4108
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 11:41 am: |
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I don't think that anybody has any real power in this country except the very upper echelon of privileged white people. Black people with money have affluence not power and the average white person is less bad off than the average black person, but that doesn't add up to having power. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 926
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 11:58 am: |
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Wow, just catching up here...
Re: the colorism issue: I know that in my grandmother's day in Louisiana, this was HUGE. But from what I have heard from women who went through the process, it is not so big now. In fact, if you link to the article you will see a photo of a gorgeous young lady wearing the heck outova red ball gown--and she is not light-skinned.
Re: the benefits--I agree that there are too few opportunities for young Black women to feel like "princesses" and too few opportunities for young Black men to feel like "princes." As much of a feminist/womanist as I am, I still see some value in that.
Plus, Black deb processes are generally a LOT different from the White ones, as the article and others here have said, in that the focus is often on community service, academic achievement, etc.
Also, I think you cannot underestimate the value of simply learning basic etiquette. Yes, it is true that young people should learn these things at home, but many (for many reasons) do not. Just simple things like how to shake hands (I can't STAND folks who cannot shake hands well!), how to make introductions, which utensils to use at a formal dinner, how to behave in a restaurant... One thing I hear a lot from employers (even "low level" ones, like McDOnalds managers) is how ill-equiped many young people are just to interact with others and present themselves in a professional setting.
Re: the class issues. I have to say that the "charge" that many of today's debs and escorts are the sons and daughters of "doctors and lawyers" confusing. My daughters are the children of professional folks in this category. Many Black parents who fit this mold are the first generation to be in this "status." They themselves are the sons and daughters of high school only grads, civil service workers, etc... I agree with those of you who note the nuance in "class" classifications in Black communities.
Finally, I think one thing Black communities need more of is coming-of-age rituals. If we do not provide meaningful, significant, and appropriate venues to recognize young peoples' move from "child" to "adult" then they will find and create their own.
ANd we may not be too happy with those. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2027
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
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Abm:
But I do think there exist some class distinctions amongst Black people that influence where we go, what we do and who we do (and don't) become.
Tonya:
That is where I believe colorism comes in which is why I think it's so wrong. It does the same thing to people that racism does--it functions the same exact way--and it effects the ones who's been effected the most for so many years. |
Enchanted
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 09:16 pm: |
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In the name of god, is there anything you do Tonya that doesn't revolve around whining that you have dark skin? I am dark chocolate and I lived my whole life barely noticing it until I ran into you and kooky Kola. Give us a damn break some days!
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2033
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:19 am: |
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Eat dick you fuckin self-centered tarbaby.... Just because you lived your whole life not noticing "it", you think nobody else should??? You think that's the right thing to do??? Man!!! I try not to hate people but it's selfish heartless fuckers like you that this world could seriously do without. You said YOU was never discriminated against--YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN!!! You are exactly the person who should be kept out of the mix! Why on earth should you get to live care-free.. off the sweat of the very people you care nothing about!?!?!?!?
"I am dark chocolate and I lived my whole life barely noticing it."
And you say that proudly... as if you have no responsibility to those who HAVE noticed it. The fact that you have it easier makes you even more responsible. And the fact that you are "dark chocolate" yet still don't give a fuck, may the rest of your life bring a special kind of rat infested hell for you. Don't post me no more bitch.. Cuz I hate your fuckin ass and I don't give a FUCK about you! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4124
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 10:50 am: |
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When you compare the posts of Enchanted and Tonya, who comes across as the more rational person? Enchanted lives up to her screen name because she has managed to navigate her way through life, maintaining her identity and her stability, doing so because she is apparently an individual secure in the knowledge that the place she has carved for herself in the world has brought her satisfaction. And, no, Enchanted is not an alter ego of Cynique but she does always seem to have my back and I want to return the favor. Now go berserk, Tonya and Renata and Kola because this strong woman thinks for herself, which is probably why she comes across as well-adjusted. |
Babygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 268
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
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Tonya, why should Enchanted be responsible for how others chose to live and exist in this world? If she is content not blaming every negative aspect of her life on her skin color, why should that be bothersome to those who do?
I'm trying to understand what you believe her responsibility should be and why? If she is content with her life thinking as she does, why does that enrage you so much? You chose to make your skin color an issue for every aspect of your existence, why should anyone else? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1834
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 01:03 pm: |
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I'd bet any amount of money that ENCHANTED is more lily light than Cynique's white ass.
Naturally, she comes here to claim she's not just dark skinned---but "dark chocolate" and female, and that she's never noticed or heard of colorism until she ran into Kola Boof.
You need to read my new magazine, ENCHANTED. The article called "What Is Authentic Black?"
http://proofmagazine.i8.com
The internet makes it possible for high yellow women like you to pretend to be black, so you can dispute the truth.
But don't look back...the past is gaining on you.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2040
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 01:49 pm: |
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Babygirl:
If she is content not blaming every negative aspect of her life on her skin color, why should that be bothersome to those who do? ....You chose to make your skin color an issue for every aspect of your existence, why should anyone else?
Tonya:
You act as if you know me (Or Enchanted, for that matter).
I would have actually sworn you were smarter than that.
Perhaps I'm guilty of the same mistake--acting like I know you. Tsk-Tsk.
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Babygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 272
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 02:01 pm: |
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I asked the question based on your comment and not because I know anything about you. But your ire was evident with the name-calling and the "I hate you" babble. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that you have very passionate feelings about color. You expose such in every post you make i.e., an earlier comment I once made to you about the weather, that it could just be a discussion about rain and you'd turn it into a rant about who'd get wet first - white women or black.
I genuinely want to know what you feel her responsibility is, or mine, or anyone who doesn't go through each day focused so narrowly on dark vs. light. Why do you feel these people who don't care as you care, actually have a responsibility to those people who are most bothered by it?
Now, stop pouting, put the lollipop down, and help me to understand where you're coming from. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4126
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 02:06 pm: |
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Yea, Kola, accusing them of lying about their color is the only sorry retort you can ever muster up when somebody brown says they don't share your obsession with color. And the past is where you dwell and what you have to tout because you can't face the reality that America of the future will not be your playground. I hope the realistic goal of your fascistic publication is to drum up enthusiasm for relocating to an island where you and your sect can sit around all day convincing yourselves that you made the right choice. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 937
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 02:23 pm: |
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GHANA has a very serious Debutante society--the Akan tribe
What are some possible options for African AMerican "coming of age" rituals? Ones that included youth of all backgrounds, since that is one objection (and a valid one, I think) to some Black cottilions? What would such a thing have to entail in order to make them meaningful for the young people--in other words, not a source of ridicule that only "undesirables" attend?
In another on-line forum some people were talking about bar/bat mitzvahs, confirmations, and the like. Could these be one model (albeit, without the religious grounding)?
One rite of passage that we must look at is the US prison system. It might seem at first glance that there is NOTHING to be gained from looking at crime and punishment. But I'm starting to believe that there is something that underground cultures are able to do (tho with outcomes we do not want) that mainstream culture is missing. So, maybe we ought to take a closer look.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4127
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:00 pm: |
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From what I have heard, in the culture of the "underclass" young black males do tend to think that accepting a plea bargain for committing an offense and serving a little time in the joint is comparable to a baptismal of fire - or an anointing for their manhood. And I've always felt that getting pregnant was like a rite of passage for "inner-city" teen-aged girls. These entrenched rituals just perpetuate a dead end lifestyle that bogs down black progress. And, yes, I know similiar conditions exist in the rural ghettos populated by poor whites. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2042
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:09 pm: |
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Babygirl:
I genuinely want to know what you feel her responsibility is, or mine, or anyone who doesn't go through each day focused so narrowly on dark vs. light.
Now, stop pouting, put the lollipop down, and help me to understand where you're coming from.
Tonya:
O.k. I'll be nice....
You said you read my "I hate you" babble, right? Well you should have read the WHOLE LINE because I also said "and I don't give a FUCK about you!"
...and that's your answer.
Not trying to be smart.. that really is your answer.... Please don't whip me!
Babygirl:
Why do you feel these people who don't care as you care, actually have a responsibility to those people who are most bothered by it?
Tonya:
I was raised to fully accept that human beings have a general responsibility to each other--Whether it's people who are socially oppressed, or are incapable of doing for themselves because of hard times or medical disabilities--I was taught that if I am lucky enough to be able to do what others cannot for themselves.. that it is my duty.. indeed my responsibility.. to do whatever I can to help. And I was trained by parents, teachers, Community leaders, and other experienced mentors to, yes, expect that kind of behavior from others.
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 940
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:10 pm: |
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Yes, I agree, Cynique. But what (if anything) can we learn from these?
For example, one possibility is that for a ritual to be meaningful for young people, it has to be recognized as such by their peers (in other words, NOT just something adults think up to do). Another possibility is that there has to be some recognizable "product" that comes out of it (e.g., a baby)...
Or maybe there has to be an element of danger or on-the-edgedness about it. I know there are folks who study the latter thing, but I am not familiar with this work. For example, one reason why hazing (in frats/sororities, gangs, military, etc) seems to endure is that as humans we tend to suspect and not value as highly group membership that comes about too easily and without some personal sacrifice.
Whatever. I don't know. It just seems like we should be able to figure out some rituals/rites of passage that can work with young people. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1845
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:27 pm: |
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What are some possible options for African AMerican "coming of age" rituals? Ones that included youth of all backgrounds, since that is one objection (and a valid one, I think) to some Black cottilions? What would such a thing have to entail in order to make them meaningful for the young people--in other words, not a source of ridicule that only "undesirables" attend?
In another on-line forum some people were talking about bar/bat mitzvahs, confirmations, and the like. Could these be one model (albeit, without the religious grounding)?
Though "Kwanzaa" is an American made "African" holiday......one that is now spreading TO AFRICA
(thank goodness)
...I think it's important for AAs, YVETTE, to acknowledge that their HISTORY and their CULTURE....pre-ceeds their experiences on the American continent.
They are Africans. Lobotomized yes, but still Africans.
The WORST that was done----was when this was denied and disallowed by the SLAVE MASTER and his RULES ....rules that removed the "aesthetic" of the Black Human and replaced it with the word "nigger"----an automatic control button that says, "You are nothing..until I make you something."
That's why we get excited over an OSCAR----but not nearly as much over the NAACP Award.
The White man's HAND is "prestige". The Black man's HAND is a "copycat".
DO YOU SEE?
So you, as Blacks, you have EVERY RIGHT....it's your birthright....to SEEK OUT and EMBRACE the cultural rituals of your African ancestry---the ones that you like.
AND YOU NEED TO.
I do that every day. I swim and pray naked (with my sons) in the river. I have my own religion "The Womb" that is based on MY cultural spiritual beliefs. I eat lots of fruits and vegetables and I don't worry about SIN. Because without experience--you can't learn and become wise.
All this to say----THE WOMAN has the most power in the community.
And Black American women have been so beat down, lied upon, demonized and "disallowed" from public discourse---that they rarely infuse their own power into their children. EVEN AS SINGLE MOTHERS......the children are being raised by BET, Young and the Restless and the Black thuggish men on the corner.
The DOMINANT CULTURE dictates to the Black Man and he then dumps their rules on the Black woman.
The Blacks have no aesthetic of their own.
The WOMEN, Yvette, are the ones who are supposed to create SONS ......"sons" are warriors, weapons of POWER for a woman. They do her bidding.
But not in America.
Over here---the women's self-hate is passed into the son...a message saying: "I'm am nothing...HATE ME, son."
One single example of this is the dark skinned nappy haired black woman telling her sons---"Don't you bring no black girl home." BECAUSE these "type" of black women....are desperate to infuse LIGHTNESS, Mixed blood into their IMAGE, to be more "accepted" by society.
SO HENCE...these DARK sons go out and disrespect every image that is similar to their dark mother's.
This is how you LOSE the opportunity to have POSITIVE standards, customs and rituals in the Black Community.
No "value" is placed on the people's blackness BY ITSELF.
The only RELIGION you have---is one that serves White Supremacy (the European version of the BIBLE speaking of "fair skin" and "walk in the light" and a WHITE JESUS).
This makes it impossible for Blacks to create "SOCIETY".
SO I greatly appreciate KWANZAA....because it creates an ETHIC rooted in "Black Aesthetics" and thereby provides the BASIS for a....SOCIETY....but one inclusive of Blackness BY ITSELF.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 2043
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:30 pm: |
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Also, Babygirl, don't twist her words.... She said she lived her whole life barely noticing that there's a problem. That's different from not going through each day "focused so narrowly on dark vs. light." Vastly different. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1846
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:33 pm: |
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YVETTE---to sum up and answer your question:
Before we can have a "cotillion"...we must first have a SOCIETY (a society comprises mores and folkways--read my previous post).
And the Akan Tribe has a society inwhich ALL FEMALES---not males----but ALL FEMALES must be debutantes. Even their prostitutes.
There is no Black American "society". We COPY and BORROW the White Dominant Culture's Society....and that society dictates.....that PRISON is a "warrior mark" for minority males.
I broke it down for you.
Everything we have is "flawed", because we only COPY the standard of our oppressor.
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 942
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:42 pm: |
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Kola, I do not see this as uni-directional, but a classic chicken-egg dilemma. Do rituals make a society or society make rituals? I think it is likely both. At any rate, I think it is probably possible to go at it from both directions--the more folk working on it from many direction, the better.
I agree about Kwanzaa. You probably know I'm a huge Kwanzaa supporter. And I suspect we are right to protect and further Kwanzaa because of the backlashes against it in recent years from so many fronts. If other folks fear it enough to attack it, then it's probably something that is on the right track! LOL |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4129
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:48 pm: |
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Well, Yvette, it must be a regional thing because as I say, around Chicago and its suburbs any number of black organizations sponsor cotillions and they are not all high society affairs. And they also have what are called Beautillions for young black boys who reach 18. Ideally, of course, the family circle should be where young people are welcomed into adulthood and taught manners and social consciousness. But the family breakdown is the bane of black folk. The only other possibilities for a traditional celebration of a rite of passasge for black youth lie in the Church or the School. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 944
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 03:54 pm: |
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Beautillions for young black boys
Cynique, I've never heard of these. Which organizations started these? What kinds of young men, generally, go? What do they do?
(Sorry for the question barrage, but this is fascinating to me!) |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1847
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 04:22 pm: |
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Yvette---
People attack KWANZA for the exact reasons I posted in my long winded post above.
ALL OF US...acculturated in and BY White Supremacist Belief Systems.....have FEAR of a "black aesthetic" (Kwanza, African hairdos).
Of course...it's the ROCK FOUNDATION of "JEWS", for instance, to have a separate Jewish aesthetic.
An aesthetic is different than "culture".
Do you see?
This is why our men are in PRISON.
It's why Mary J. has flowing blond hair.
It's why Michael Jackson is WHITE.
It's why people prefer to think that Lauryn Hill is just a "nutjob" babbling about nothing.
My point remains...you cannot create the cultural rituals and rites until you embrace the Black aesthetic as the BASE, the soil to plant it in.
Be honest...even you must have some fear of becoming "too black".
You can't be Average American 364 days of the year and then pull out a ritual for one day or a week. For it to THRIVE, there must be an aesthetic at the ROOT.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1848
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 04:25 pm: |
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Cynique said:
But the family breakdown is the bane of black folk.
KOLA:
Exactly. Which takes us BACK to my original point.
A nation (a tribe, a family)...cannot rise above its woman.
Therefore, there has to be an established aesthetic that keeps the family together.
This begins with the female and her womb.
What comes out of her mind and her mouth...is what will come into being--will come true.
Is anybody getting me?
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1849
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 04:26 pm: |
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THIS IS ALL CONNECTED.
How an egg in a womb....ends up in PRISON rather than in charge of a prosperous family.
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Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 201
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 05:29 pm: |
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"People attack KWANZA for the exact reasons I posted in my long winded post above.
ALL OF US...acculturated in and BY White Supremacist Belief Systems.....have FEAR of a "black aesthetic" (Kwanza, African hairdos).
Of course...it's the ROCK FOUNDATION of "JEWS", for instance, to have a separate Jewish aesthetic.
An aesthetic is different than "culture".
Do you see?
This is why our men are in PRISON.
It's why Mary J. has flowing blond hair.
It's why Michael Jackson is WHITE.
It's why people prefer to think that Lauryn Hill is just a "nutjob" babbling about nothing."
Good point.
It's also why you take a perverse pride in having supposedly been Osama's bitch. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:05 pm: |
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My PRIDE....is that I survived to tell my truth.
And to honor myself.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:06 pm: |
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And I should be proud. I'm a helluva woman.
More than you are man.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4132
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:15 pm: |
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I think, Yvette, this beautillion ceremony in Chicago originated with the ALPHAs and the practice has started to spread to the suburbs. I've never been to one of these events but I am told they consist of each set of parents welcoming their son into manhood and then each guy giving his response. It is a black tie affair and the boys bring escorts. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 945
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:46 pm: |
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Thanks, Cynique. This is very interesting. I googled the name and found that this is spreading to other places besides Chicago as well. I think this is from Hartford, CT:
A Beautillion is an event in which African-American young men are showcased in a "Rite of Passage" Ceremony. Having been engaged in workshops designed to develop them intellectually, spiritually, socially and emotionally, this Afro-Centric culminating event introduces them to society. The featured participants are the Beautants (Beaus), high school juniors and seniors; Marshals, ages 11-15; and Pages, ages 7-10, who play a lesser role in the Beautillion, however, they are an important component of the program. The Beau's escorts are called Nubian Princesses. This event takes place in April of alternating years.
Educational Statistics:
By 1999, 55 Beaus have pursued further education past high school and have enrolled in the following colleges and universities:
Alcorn State University
Brown University
Coppin State College
Central Connecticut State University
Eastern Connecticut State University
Howard University
Hampton University
Johnson and Wales University
Morgan State University
New York Institute of Technology
Old Dominion University
St. Paul's College
Talladega University
Tuskegee University
University of Connecticut
University of Hartford
University of Rhode Island
Virginia State University
Wake Forest University
William and Mary University
Winston-Salem University
Greater Hartford Community-Technical College
Manchester Community-Technical College
Tunxis Community Technical College
(from http://tni_inc.tripod.com/about.html)
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4134
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 09:42 pm: |
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Thank you, Yvette! I didn't know this practice had become that widespread. |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 202
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
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"My PRIDE....is that I survived to tell my truth.
And to honor myself."
Yeah. Surviving paranoid schizophrenia requires a lot of intestinal fortitude. So--hats off to Kola for actually still being here among the un-institutionalized. Most other psychos of your stripe are usually sent to rubber rooms.
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