| Author | Message | ||
     Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 130 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Any comments on this article? Their Eyes Were Reading Smut By NICK CHILES Published: January 4, 2006 Snellville, Ga. LAST month I happened to go into the Borders Books store at the Stonecrest mall in Lithonia, Ga., about a half-hour from my house here. To my surprise, it had one of the largest collections of books by black authors that I've ever seen outside an independent black bookstore, rows and rows of bookcases. This is the sort of discovery that makes the pulse quicken, evidence of a population I've spent most of my professional life seeking: African-American readers. What a thrill to have so much space in a major chain store devoted to this country's black writers. With an extra spring in my step, I walked into the "African-American Literature" section - and what I saw there thoroughly embarrassed and disgusted me. On shelf after shelf, in bookcase after bookcase, all that I could see was lurid book jackets displaying all forms of brown flesh, usually half-naked and in some erotic pose, often accompanied by guns and other symbols of criminal life. I felt as if I was walking into a pornography shop, except in this case the smut is being produced by and for my people, and it is called "literature." As a black author, I had certainly become familiar with the sexualization and degradation of black fiction. Over the last several years, I had watched the shelves of black bookstores around the country and the tables of street vendors, particularly in New York City, become overrun with novels that seemed to appeal exclusively to our most prurient natures - as if these nasty books were pairing off back in the stockrooms like little paperback rabbits and churning out even more graphic offspring that make Ralph Ellison books cringe into a dusty corner. Early last year I walked into a B. Dalton bookstore in a New Jersey mall where the manager had always proudly told me how well my books were selling. This time, I was introduced to a new manager who was just as proud to show me an enhanced black books section teeming with this new black erotica. I've also noticed much more of this oversexed genre in Barnes & Noble bookstores over the past few months, although it's harder to see there since the chain doesn't appear to have separate black fiction sections. But up until that visit to Borders in Lithonia, I had thought this mostly a phenomenon of the black retail world, where the black bookstore owners and street vendors say they have to stock what sells, and increasingly what sells are stories that glorify and glamorize black criminals. The genre has been described by different names; "ghetto fiction" and "street lit" are two I've heard most often. Apparently, what we are now seeing is the crossover of this genre to mainstream bookstores. But the placard above this section of Borders in Lithonia didn't say "Street Lit," it said "African-American Literature." We were all represented under that placard, the whole community of black authors - from me to Terry McMillan and Toni Morrison, from Yolanda Joe and Benilde Little to Edward P. Jones and Kuwana Haulsey - surrounded and swallowed whole on the shelves by an overwhelming wave of titles and jackets that I wouldn't want my 13-year-old son to see: "Hustlin' Backwards." "Legit Baller." "A Hustler's Wife." "Chocolate Flava." I've heard defenders say that the main buyers of these books, young black women, have simply found something that speaks to them, and that it's great that they're reading something. I'd agree if these books were a starting point, and that readers ultimately turned to works inspired by the best that's in us, not the worst. But we're not seeing evidence of that. On Essence magazine's list of best sellers at black bookstores, for example, authors of street lit now dominate, driving out serious writers. Under the heading "African-American Literature," what's available is almost exclusively pornography for black women. As I stood there in Borders, I had two sensations: I was ashamed and mortified to see my books sitting on the same shelves as these titles; and secondly, as someone who makes a living as a writer I felt I had no way to compete with these purveyors of crassness. That leaves me wondering where we - writers, publishers, readers, the black community - go from here. Is street fiction some passing fad, or does it represent our future? It's depressing that this noble profession, one that I aspired to as a child from the moment I first cracked open James Baldwin and Gabriel García Márquez about 30 years ago, has been reduced by the greed of the publishing industry and the ways of the American marketplace to a tasteless collection of pornography. I realize that publishing is a business, but publishers also have a responsibility to balance street lit with more quality writing. After all, how are we going to explain ourselves to the next generation of writers and readers who will wonder why they have so little to read of import and value produced in the early 21st century, why their founts of inspiration are so parched? At times, I push myself away from the computer in anger. I don't want to compete with "Legit Baller." But then I come across something like "The Known World" by Edward P. Jones and again I am inspired. But I must say that I retain very little of the hope and excitement and enthusiasm that I had when my first book was published eight years ago. I feel defeated, disrespected and troubled about the future of my community and my little subsection of this carnivorous, unforgiving industry. Nick Chiles, the editor in chief of Odyssey Couleur magazine, is the co-author, with Denene Millner, of "A Love Story." | ||
| Snakegirl Veteran Poster Username: Snakegirl Post Number: 61 Registered: 05-2005 Rating: |
Black women drive the black book market. Many black women are not getting sex. A great many in fact. I get letters all the time from upper 30's into 40's black women asking if I'm ever going to put out an "erotica" collection. And my books, although otherworldly, are literary in the very traditional sense of the word. There is a GIGANTIC group of black women readers who can't get enough of these types of books. I conversed with one woman in Detroit who told me she hasn't been fucked in 5 years. But she's Christian, so she can't do the hoochie thing. Not trying to be crass. But even Terry McMillan gets letters requesting more Sex Scenes. ZANE built a cottage industry capitalizing off it. | ||
| Snakegirl Veteran Poster Username: Snakegirl Post Number: 62 Registered: 05-2005 Rating: |
ON A DEEPER NOTE: African Americans have only just recently been able to have a "publishing industry". Before Terry McMillan.....almost everything by African American authors was LITERARY. There was no Pop Fiction or Science Fiction or Christian Fiction market.....as there has always been with WHITE publishing. In fact, when I was a kid---there were only 3 or 4 major titles per year by Black Authors and it was almost always Toni Morrison, Alice Walker or John Edgar Wideman. You had very little...but black classics...to choose from. Terry McMillan changed all that. And now...just like the WHITE and other markets....you have an over abundance of poorly written POP SINGLES cluttering up the shelves. The great literature is still being written, and even more frequently than it ever was------but you now have to DIG through the pile for it. Granted...they should put Placcards up saying POP FICTION....AA LITERATURE....EROTICA....MYSTERY yes, it should be separated. Whites have always had Jackie Collins and Harold Robbins. I tried to explain to DIANE DORCE (Sisgal) why they put a sexy running man on the cover of her mystery detective novel. It's because that's what sells in the Black community. And with a no name author, you have to get NOTICED by the book buyers. Black women DO gravitate to covers that "hint" at fullfillment. Black women read and purchase more books, by ratio----than any group of people in the United States. | ||
| Babygirl "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Babygirl Post Number: 165 Registered: 04-2005 Rating: N/A |
And "black women not getting sex" should justify why quality writing should be forsaken for the garbage that's being plied to us by the publishing industry? Personally, I refuse to believe that black women as a whole have allowed their sexuality identities, needs, and desires to be reduced to a few tittilating pages between the covers of poorly written ghetto dramas. I admire Chiles saying out loud what far too many have only been whispering. The influx of "street-lit" has only served to deepen the chasm between black authors of substance who are writing quality literature and their white counterparts. It only serves to continue to encourage the grand disparity in publishing contracts, advances and royalties, and will continue to keep many of us from ever being acknowledged for our talents in the greater literary community. And worse case scenario, it will remain as a legacy of who we are as a people and a community for our future black youth. Our kids already know far too little about their history and culture and too many have come to believe such lifestyles, as these books glamourize them, can actually be of value to them. Imagine the impression this will leave with their children and their children's children? If it's a fad, I for one, hope it passes us by in the very near future. If this is our future, then what I do is a waste of my time and maybe I should think about another career. Who was it that thought I was a stripper? Maybe I need to forego my next contract and take up exotic dancing instead. | ||
| Snakegirl Veteran Poster Username: Snakegirl Post Number: 63 Registered: 05-2005 Rating: |
To BabyGirl: First of all...CHILES.....stated in his article exactly what I did. That the success of these books is driven by BLACK FEMALES. I didn't say that "black women as a whole" were involved..... I specifically said that there's a significant GROUP of black women readers....the kind who make ZANE sell 2 million books a year....who are under-sexed and who look to these tawdry sex filled books for ....."escapism". It's a fact. And this pool did not exist 20 years ago. MANY, MANY lonely sisters buy FIRST those covers that look the most gratuitous. Visit the CHAT ROOMS and listen to them discuss the latest Eric Jerome Dickey and that ilk. The books with the most imaginative sex scenes get the most talk. NEXT UP: I don't see Jackie Collins and Harold Robbins stopping Joan Didion or Dave Eggers from being taken seriously and selling books and getting notariety. For every one Alice Munro....there's about 20 Danielle Steele's, Janet Evanichs. On the BLACK SIDE: My friend Chris Abani just won a slew of major writing awards this year and his books are selling very well. Paul Beatty...Z.Z. Packer...Colson Whitehead Percival Elliott..Bernice McFadden and quite a few other LITERARY talents are making significant breakthroughs in the world of serious arty literature. In fact, there are about 15 times MORE new literary works by AA authors being published now....than there were BEFORE the "Street Fiction" boom came into being. More Black writers are writing for MAGAZINES and newspapers than at any time in History. They're also being included in ANTHOLOGIES and asked to write for Anthology Books....500% more than they were just 20 years ago. I am a serious literary fiction writer---one whose work is praised by many of the literary writers I've mentioned. I don't feel the least bit threatened by POP FICTION or by Street Literature. MOST READERS...both black and white...want escapist trash. (Sure, I wish the trash writers were more imaginative and wrote better trash). But I know that's not my audience and I have no expectations of them. Just the fact that I'm on one of the smallest black imprints in the nation...and yet have been able to rival black authors at Major houses is proof positive that the "cream" rises to the top. I think POP FICTION is a good thing. All we need to do is ALERT the bookstores that there is a difference between BLACK LITERATURE and POP FICTION. That's a racial issue--whites not paying any attention to the books; having nothing to do with writers. And I could give a shit if whites are interested in our books or not. Just tell them to categorize them correctly. Black literature is doing better than its ever done. You're just not used to having a Black POP Fiction market is all. Of course REAL SINGERS who wear clothes in their videos like Mary J. Blige and Fantasia ...are making the same complaints about Ciara and the COUNTLESS stream of No-talent flesh model hoochies with recording contracts nowadays. But it's the GENERAL PUBLIC whose tastes have lowered. There is a drop in MORAL standard in this country. There is a lack of respect for "craftsmanship" and people want POP CULTURE INTELLIGENCE...not real true brilliance. It's a 15 second society. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1144 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
snakegirl...good points! I have seen quite a few literary writers...it has led me to read again, and perhaps, write again. I think the point that there is now a black "publishing industry" is essential, here. Profit making commodities are always marketed differently than literary/elite commodities. Barnes and Nobles is the same as Walmart...mass consumption is the goal! | ||
| Kris_broughton First Time Poster Username: Kris_broughton Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Snakegirl has some very good points. And if you have read the NEA report ( http://www.nea.gov/pub/ReadingAtRisk.pdf ) on who is reading what these days, you will find that at the literary end of the spectrum, the buyers of serious fiction tend to be middle aged white women with advanced educations whose median family incomes exceed 70K a year. If you are a literary writer, its something to think about. It has made me understand why The New Yorker prints the kind of stories that it does. It helps to explain why the editors of the "little" magazines that are often a stepping stone into book publishing for literary authors choose the kinds of stories that they do. To paraphrase a character from a Terry Southern novel: "There's two kinds of tales, you see. You got what you call them there light tales. You can rip off a few words while you're at work, you see, or on the train, or my favorite spot, the bathroom. Something that don't tax you too much, just kinda lays it all out there one two three for you, bad guy, good guy, beginning middle and the end, all lined up right where they supposed to be, all nice and easy like. "Then you got what they call your heavy tales. Can't be in a hurry for them, no sir, them fellas who thought these stories up put their backs into these. They mighta twisted up the end all the way around so it comes before the beginning. And every once in a while, they string some of them five and ten dollar words all in a row, yeah, got them all flapping in the breeze like a clothesline strung up full a silk pantaloons, and you just about think the fair's done got to town. Thems the kinda tales thats overrun with characters who might even be good and bad at the same time, characters who always seem like they is stringing you along, teasing you even, and in the end, they might not even let you know exactly what they was aiming for all that time. No sir, them heavy stories is the kind that needs a good cup of coffee and a clear mind, or at least a mind that ain't expecting very many interruptions. Yes sir, a clear mind and some time set aside in case you need to chew on some the details. Why, sometimes they got entire new ways of thinking, you know, new fangled ideas, slid right in their alongside the story. So don't you go messing with them heavy stories without you is properly prepared. Them light stories is you everyday stuff - if your mind ain't strong that heavy stuff will mess you right up. Yes sir, mess you right up." I'd like to think I'm a "heavy" writer, but then again, sometimes, when I reread my own stuff, it seems more ponderous than dense. Just thinking out loud here. | ||
| Soul_sister Regular Poster Username: Soul_sister Post Number: 43 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hey All -- Happy New Year You know, I have to chime in and agree that the basic black book section at the chain stores are smut laced places - I have been saying that for some time. Saddly enough, there is a HUGE market of Black women who drive the market - look around any train, bus or park during the weekday and these readers are transfixed - but they do not move to other types of writing. Yes, society has dumbed down - but that is not ALL of us -- I hold out hope that there will be a steady underground of great literature which will appeal to "readers" versus consumers -- which is who pop lit and general fiction target - look at Memoir of a Geisha. I was glad to see that Kuwana Hausley was mentioned in his article - she is a great sophmoric author - who no one seems to be talking about -- check out her Angel of Harlem -- Alas, you all bring the thunder and opinions that I love and I will now return to the shadows - peace | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 1725 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
All: Be's like dis some times. Nick Chiles is upset by the "smut" he sees in the African American sections (what about the smut and violence and racism that white authors purvey?) and ignores the smutty implications of a book about a black slaveholder (someone will post that there were millions and millions of them no doubt and that I should face up to history) Nick sounds like some prissy old bluenose white woman. He should just concentrate on his work. If it is so good it will crowd that other stuff right off the shelves. Snakegirl: If that erotica collection is an anthology keep me in mind. | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
When I first read this article, I first thought "Who the hell is Nick Chiles?" No disrespect or anything. In fact, I'm sure can be said about me. "Who the hell is Emanuel Carpenter?" The only legitimate argument I read in this article is that his books are categorized with street fiction. I can understand how we feels. As far as the other stuff goes, it sounds like a lot of hateration. If we should avoid street fiction because of moral implications, then we should avoid movies like "The Godfather" because of it's violence or even "love jones" because of it's fornication. Now I don't have a personal taste for street fiction myself but I'm not going to stop the next man from making a few dollars because of my preference in reading. It sounds more like Nick is more upset that the smut is selling instead of his work. If that's the case, he should test the waters, write some himself using a fake name and get paid. There's a lot of good fiction out there by black authors, and the last time I checked, street fiction wasn't winning any literary awards either. And if this is indeed smut, it's up to the adults in their households to make that decision. There is a strong demand for this stuff. You can't have the suppply without the demand. And many authors only care about making money and will therefore write for a buying market. So should they get paid or get pats on the back for a job well done in the form of a literary review? While there are many authors who only want the accolades. For the most part, they just wanna get paid. If authors are not writing to accomodate a buying market, then they'd better not quit their day jobs. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 3236 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
This man sounds like one of those purist with a Victorian mentality. He is out of step with the times, but his voice is important because it's almost like our conscience speaking. | ||
| Blklitreader Newbie Poster Username: Blklitreader Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
We all know being good often times than not has nothing to do with attracting an audience and being a 'success'. Look at the music industry, many of those who sell millions of units, can't sing. Their voices are enhanced in the studio, then they make a video, making sure all the females barely clothed, and then follow up with with a tour, all the while lip syncing their way to million of tickets sold. And, pray in the meantime, that Hollywood will come knocking. As written so many times, on the board, the real singers may not have that look, or can't get a record contract as they have decided to sing or rap about something rather than nothing, or their label won't put their money and muscle behind promoting them. Though their are no dollars shortage when promoting 'smut'. I think, the same holds for the publishing industry. They know they don't have to put a lot of money into promotions, author tours, book signings, etc. Just get a few people to post on message boards and mailing lists, on the net, and rave about how good the book is, with all it's hot the sex scenes, but oh, ignore all the misspellings and subjective and verb dis-agreements, the story is still tight. We can argue the chicken and egg question all day long -- which came first, the overabundance of books of this type or the readers demanding such stories from authors and publishers. Contrary to popular belief, everyone who voices an opposing view or opinion, isn't hatin' or a wannabe. Some do have standards, those aren't popular these days, but nevertheless, and it isn't always about the dollar. Lots of people get paid, but paid to what, is the key. We have got to jump off the fence, and stand boldly on one side, or the other. | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 132 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hey Blklitreader, If this article had been written by a neutral reporter who isn't affected financially by the success of street fiction, I could believe that this was only a moral issue. But because he mentions his own work as an author, I think there's more to it. I went to Amazon.com and read a few professional and customer reviews about his work. His work received props from literary mags but was dogged for being boring by customers. And ultimately, who do you want to please? I would want to please buyers. I agree. A lot of us have standards, which is why we make the choice to simply avoid what offends us. It doesn't, however, give us the right to tell someone what is morally right. What standard of morality are we speaking about? How many people are sitting up in church every Sunday and getting sexed up on every other day without being married just like these authors write about? What if a reader is an atheist? Should we inflict morality on her that doesn't fit into her belief system? The morality question is another subject all itself. | ||
| Snakegirl Veteran Poster Username: Snakegirl Post Number: 64 Registered: 05-2005 Rating: N/A |
Blklitreader, There is MORE black literary fiction being published today...than there every has been in history. At least 30 new titles a month by the major houses are BLACK LITERARY....even African authors are now being published (and only the literary ones) at a rate of 4 titles a month. There is plenty to invest your standards in. Patti LaBelle always had a HUGE beautiful voice. But Diana Ross knew what to do with hers and was the biggest star of her generation---with comparably the smallest (albeit gorgeous) vocals. Patti never really made it until very late in her career--she was nearly 50. You can't legislate morality. And the POP SINGLE, the "bubble gum with the great hook".....will always be QUICK CASH as the industry awaits lightning striking with a brilliant innovative Stevie Wonder OPUS. Many readers have no attention spans, no taste and still want to read a book. Whites of that ilk have ALWAYS been able to read "pulp fiction" trash---now the blacks can read their own version. At least our children are seeing people READING something, religiously. That is very good even if it's bubble gum escapism. | ||
| Renata "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Renata Post Number: 355 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
I agree with Emmanuel all the way, but as Snakegirl said, they should just learn to categorize it differently. When I go to Barnes and Noble, they don't separate ANY of the fiction: black, white, pop, erotica. It's all under fiction. So, it does speak volumes about differentiating BLACK fiction, pop and otherwise, from other literature. HOWEVER, Lithonia is perhaps one of the BLACKEST towns in the Atlanta area, more so than even Decatur and College Park, and I'm thinking the manager may have categorized them as such because many black people look specifically for books written by black writers. | ||
| Blklitreader Newbie Poster Username: Blklitreader Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
I reread the op-ed pieced to make sure I didn't miss anything. But nowhere is the author telling writers to not write smut, for publishers to not publish smut or even readers to not read smut. To say that people can read what they want, I thought was a given. I read him to ask that would be some balance and a variety of books written, published and read. The man gave his opinion, and his wasn't a foreign one, as he hasn't been the first to say this over the past couple of years, as they saw the shift coming, and won't be the last, if trend continues. Lumping all books under one label is a problem. I know you aren't judging this writer, and his work, by those people who rated his books at amazon.com. Were those readers reviews were a true representative of what readers think of his book? My opinion, I believe that half of those posters don't read the books that they rate -- another discussion for another day. And why is it an either / or proposition -- if you are pleasing the readers, then you can't also please the literary magazines? That in itself speaks volumes. The writer didn't introduce morals or morality, or lack of, into his op-ed piece, now, was it implied, I suppose, that's for each reader to decide. I mentioned standards, which doesn't necessarily equate to morals / morality. As for as the question, about the church goer, I have no idea, however, do you know the answer? There is hypocrisy exhibited by church attendees and non church attendees alike as I suspect there are some people "getting sexed up on every other day without being married" but don't attend church and also don't like reading "smut" either. And, why don't you think an atheist doesn't have a sense of morality or a belief system? Readers can criticize, all day long, about the 'high/er brow (non-"smut") writers' but when other readers complain about those writers, way on the end of the spectrum, then we get they are jealous, hatin', should be more concerned about what white folks are doing to black people, yadda, yadda, yadda ... When there is disagreement, rarely is the focus on what is said, and it's validity, but instead, who said it, how they said, and why they said it. We all have a bias, whether you're a reader or a writer or both. Let's say he is jealous, because books aren't selling or his writing sucks, but does totally negate everything he said? What about "lurid book jackets displaying all forms of brown flesh, usually half-naked and in some erotic pose, often accompanied by guns and other symbols of criminal" or "the sexualization and degradation of black fiction" or "what's available is almost exclusively pornography for black women" or "the greed of the publishing industry and the ways of the American marketplace to a tasteless collection of pornography" or "makes a living as a writer I felt I had no way to compete with these purveyors of crassness" or "list of best sellers at black bookstores, for example, authors of street lit now dominate, driving out serious writers"? And then he asks, "That leaves me wondering where we - writers, publishers, readers, the black community - go from here. Is street fiction some passing fad, or does it represent our future?" I've read people complain, on just this board alone many times, of all the poorly constructed and written books that fall in this genre. But, ultimately, it seems, as long as people are selling books and getting paid, then why should one be concerned. | ||
| Schakspir Regular Poster Username: Schakspir Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
"Readers can criticize, all day long, about the 'high/er brow (non-"smut") writers' but when other readers complain about those writers, way on the end of the spectrum, then we get they are jealous, hatin', should be more concerned about what white folks are doing to black people, yadda, yadda, yadda ... When there is disagreement, rarely is the focus on what is said, and it's validity, but instead, who said it, how they said, and why they said it. I've read people complain, on just this board alone many times, of all the poorly constructed and written books that fall in this genre. But, ultimately, it seems, as long as people are selling books and getting paid, then why should one be concerned." People complain because they are FED UP WITH THE GARBAGE, THANK YOU. They want quality writing and are tired of crap! | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 135 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well, if we're talking about smut, then it has to be based on some type of moral standard. Smut implies something dirty and wrong, and for some something to be dirty or wrong it has to be based on some standard. Since lots of moral standards come from religious doctrine, especially Judeo-Christian ethics in the West, I threw in the religious aspect. But you're right, atheists have moral standards as well as believers. While we're at it, why not complain about all smut? Should we ban the Hip-Hop and R & B CDs because of their explicit content? Say goodbye to Trina, Ludicrous, and even Jill Scott in that case. What about movies that promote promiscuity and movies that promote violence like "love jones," "Love and Basketball," and "Brown Sugar" or "Set it Off." Where does it end? What else should we categorize as smut as cast out? We are a diverse group of people just like any other race. A pile of books with guns and half-naked women on them will not make me feel like we are an oversexed or violent race no more than the cover below makes me feel Caucasians are oversexed. I know the books don't represent my lifestyle and couldn't give a damn if someone sees a book cover and is ignorant enough to believe the image represents me or all blacks. Do you honestly think people look at a street fiction cover and think "there goes the real Colin Powell, Condozeela Rice or Bishop Desmond Tutu?"  Again, I agree that Chiles is right in complaining that his book is lumped in with street fiction. Maybe there shouldn't be an African-American section of the chains at all. Now I have personally only read 2 or 3 books that would be considered street fiction because the books don't personally appeal to me. I believe there's room enough for all of the black books that are out there. It doesn't matter if you like Christian fiction, books on civil rights issue or escapism books on strippers and thugs. At least we have a choice. I know I believe there's tons of stuff out there I would can read without being offended. But based on the latest bestseller lists at African-American bookstores, the choice is street fiction. If those books are selling like hotcakes, who exactly is complaining? | ||
| Urbanreviews Newbie Poster Username: Urbanreviews Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2005 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, I'm late on this one. I just read this article last night. Nick Chiles is just upset because his books are not selling as fast as the street fiction. If you look back to 10yrs ago, we didn't even have that many choices in the Afrcian-American fiction market. Variety is the spice of life. What disturbed me about the article is that this opinion is coming from another AUTHOR and its in a major newspaper for all to see. I almost question his professionalism. I myself read street fiction and literary works. For Chiles to just make a blanket statement saying that these books are smut is crazy. Thats like me saying that all science fiction and supernatural books are horrible because those books don't appeal to me. I agree with Emanuel. I don't think you should hate on these other authors because their books are selling right now. Personally, I like that Borders has all of the African-Literature in one section because I don't like looking all over the place for a book at Barnes and Noble. The African-American book industry is large enough to include everyone. Urban fiction is here to stay. If you don't like urban fiction, then don't buy it. Its that simple. -Radiah Hubbert | ||
| Troy "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 319 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Radiah, your comment "What disturbed me about the article is that this opinion is coming from another AUTHOR"; actually concerned me as well, but perhaps for a different reason. Nick says "But I must say that I retain very little of the hope and excitement and enthusiasm that I had when my first book was published eight years ago. I feel defeated, disrespected and troubled about the future of my community and my little subsection of this carnivorous, unforgiving industry." I'm astonished that he would feel that way. On virtually every measurable indicator subjective or otherwise we are in a much better situation than we have ever been as far as Book books are concerned. More authors are entering the field. More books being published, purchased and read. Books are easier to obtain. they cost less and there is a wider variety from which to choose. We have Carl Weber and Zane are running a major imprints. We have independent publishers like Triple Crown, Black Pearl Books and Writersandpoets publishing scores of authors who would not published by a "major house" just a few years ago -- Authors who, by the way, have given hundreds of thousands of readers hours of reading pleasure. If Nick does not want to compete with "Legit Baller"; he should find another vocation as this condition shows no sign of abating. Nick says he realizes "publishing is a business", but then goes on to make statements contrary to even a fundamental understanding of the book business. Actually Nick should be pleased that a Borders in Lithonia, GA, no less, had the "largest collections of books by black authors that I've ever seen outside an independent black bookstore". Is Nick unaware that there was a time Black Independents were the only sources of a decent selection of Black books? The fact that Nick's book was even in the store is a giant step forward. Also check out "Greene Response to "Their Eyes Were Reading Smut" a response by Brenda M. Greene, Ph.D., Professor of English Executive Director, Center for Black Literature Medgar Evers College of the City University of New York. Brenda says "We must also find a way to create mechanisms for promoting literary writers whose voices are not being heard and whose literature has become marginalized. Because these writers are more concerned with writing than with promoting their books.... Dr. Greene's National Black Writer's Conference will help address the "Literary" issue, complaining about book placement about in a store in GA will not. One more thing: These so called authors of "smut" are selling books, and they also buy advertising. The revenue that these authors create for book sellers (including AALBC.com) not only helps our bottom line, but these "smut" publishers effectively subsidize the promotion of the literary authors and publishers -- who do very little self promotions on their own. p.s. Back in March 2002, Nick Chiles' Denene Millner's Love Don't Live Here Anymore was #3 on the AALBC.com best sellers list ( http://aalbc.com/books/march_2002.htm, read a review http://aalbc.com/reviews/lovedontlivehereanymore.htm ). I'm sure Nick's article and the associated controversy helped his book sales. That may not have been his intent, but it is the way things work. Emanuel, I bet you know who he is now ;-) | ||
| Schakspir "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Schakspir Post Number: 115 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, I'm late on this one. I just read this article last night. Nick Chiles is just upset because his books are not selling as fast as the street fiction. If you look back to 10yrs ago, we didn't even have that many choices in the Afrcian-American fiction market. Variety is the spice of life. What disturbed me about the article is that this opinion is coming from another AUTHOR and its in a major newspaper for all to see. I almost question his professionalism. I myself read street fiction and literary works. For Chiles to just make a blanket statement saying that these books are smut is crazy. Thats like me saying that all science fiction and supernatural books are horrible because those books don't appeal to me. I agree with Emanuel. I don't think you should hate on these other authors because their books are selling right now. Personally, I like that Borders has all of the African-Literature in one section because I don't like looking all over the place for a book at Barnes and Noble. The African-American book industry is large enough to include everyone. Urban fiction is here to stay. If you don't like urban fiction, then don't buy it. Its that simple. -Radiah Hubbert People say the same thing about Thug Rap/Crunk, etc. "If you don't like it, then don't listen to it," etc. Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. Mr. Chiles has a right to be angry. Writing like his is actively being crowded of the shelves in favor of the urban "fiction", and that's pathetic. It's also bullshit to say that we did not have many choices 10 years ago. There were plenty. It's just that the lovers of pulp fiction among us did not have much to go around. Anybody who has some decent taste in literature(and who has actually read a lot of these books)will see the shoddy editing, typos, cheap paper, lousy covers, etc. The fact that such books are selling only means that the producers of these books are far better at marketing their books than the serious writers are. My advice to the more literary writers is that they try to find a way to market their stuff more aggressively, firstly, and secondly, stop writing about arcane subjects like John Henry, etc., which frankly few of us want to read. This is the only way we serious writers will get one over on these other hacks who pump out this ridiculous garbage. The hacks promote their stuff on the street, in subways, nail salons, etc.; we need to take the same approach. As a lit writer myself I am about to do the same for my own books from now on, because this is the only way to get quality fiction to masses of people, rather than the slop crowding the shelves. Nick Chiles doesn't have to be upset; he simply has to find a way to market his stuff so that he can get a leg up on the hacks. And FYI, urbanreviews, "urban fiction" does make us look like complete shit, whether we enjoy reading this stuff or not, whether you say this is so or not. We are not an island unto ourselves. I'm not anti-porn, but when you go into a black bookstore, this slop has crowded out most other books that can not only sell AS WELL as the "urban" pulps, but sometimes EVEN BETTER. Readers appreciate a good story. But they will appreciate it even more when decent writers can tell that story better than the hacks at Triple Crown. | ||
| Metasmith First Time Poster Username: Metasmith Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: |
I've got a hell of a lot to say on this subject. Why can't we just be black writers and not tear each other down? I mean I'm not happy that a groupie with a pen is the talk of the literary world, but I'm not going to knock her hustle. There is a place for all kinds of books. What we as black authors need to do, is educate the general public and each other. We need to stick together. And we need to like someone else said, promote ourselves by any means necessary. If your work is all that, then get off your butt, and into the streets and put it into the hands of people who need it. This is a business. You better handle your own business, because no one will hype you better than you can hype yourself. Now I'm not thrilled that my latest work The Queen of Miami, due in February 07, has been dubbed a "street novel" by Warner, especially when the protagonist is from a wealthy family, has a trust fund, and a large part of the novel takes place on a luxury yacht sailing through Ibiza, St. Tropez, and Mykonos. And yes she's black, but she's one of the only one of us in the book. But nevertheless I'm glad to have a deal with a major publisher. I just know I have to work that much harder and talk that much more shit to anyone within earshot to get those who don't get it to understand that the black experience varies dramatically. One can cover so many facets of it with love and poignancy. I'll admit a vast majority of street lit is mindless drivel, but hey if you're a good writer, take the high road. Market to your demographic and don't worry about folks with a less discerning pallate. Or better still, turn the unlearned on to something new. Each one teach one. Now my first novel, due out July 11,2006 called The Rollexxx Club was dubbed street lit, but almost rightfully so. But it's still a fabulous book. It chronicles the spiritual awakening of a stripper turned model turned rapper. It was a journey through the streets to higher ground, not just about the streets. But that doesn't make it garbage and it doesn't make me a hack. I have a degree in English from Spelman. I taught English. But I used to be a stripper and a video model as well, and I wrote what I know and what I saw. But that's not all I know. I also worked in a convent and was a director at United Way in Chicago. My experience, like so much of the black experience can't be put in a box, and I'm not going to let anyone white or black tell me what I should or shouldn't write. I will write what the spirit moves me to write. My book is not your typical ball and fall novel and I'm very proud of it. I got an agent and a deal in a span of 8 weeks, with a major house. But now I'm on to something else. It's about challenging myself and constant elevation of my craft and bringing the masses with me. My problem is that I don't want to be typecast or pigeon-holed as anything from anyone else. As I grow, so does my writing and its scope. I quit my day job. I want to and I'm going to get paid. I don't want to be a starving artist, because frankly I've starved too long! But really what I'm trying to say, is that not all so called urban writers are uneducated hacks diguising porn as literature. Some of us are damn good writers, and even better salespeople. Nuff said. For now... With respect and love for ALL artists, Meta Smith A proud black writer and the self appointed "Queen of Bling Fiction" until I decide I want to be the queen of something else!And then I'll give it a category of my own making! And oh yeah...FIGHT THE POWERS THAT BE! http://www.metasmith.net http://myspace.com/metasmith http://groups.yahoo.com/group/metasmith  | ||
| Schakspir "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Schakspir Post Number: 128 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
"I quit my day job. I want to and I'm going to get paid. I don't want to be a starving artist, because frankly I've starved too long! But really what I'm trying to say, is that not all so called urban writers are uneducated hacks diguising porn as literature. Some of us are damn good writers, and even better salespeople. Writing is the worst profession to get into just to "get paid." Absolutely, the WORST. For most of us it's a labor of love. But if you're primarily interested in money you could do it quicker on eBay, and get much more in return in just a matter of days. | ||
| Metasmith Newbie Poster Username: Metasmith Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I hear ya Schakspir! But never did I say I was in this JUST to get paid. It would be really nice though. I gave up a high paying job to do this full time. And not because I wanted to get rich, it was because I wanted to be happy. And please believe that my paltry advance (though it was nice for an unknown author's debut work; I'm not complaining) does not compare to my former salary. If ALL I was concerned about was cash, I'd have chucked my self-respect, soul my soul and stuck to shimmying on a stage or kept trying to climb the corporate ladder or done anything but this. And if I were money hungry I wouldn't care what my work was called just whether or not my checks cleared. Writing is my mother's milk, it's my oxygen. I need it to exist. But let's be real, writing is also my job and I've got a family to support. Besides Michael Jordan always spoke of his love of the game but he wasn't turning down his paycheck to do it. I'll write until I take my last breath whether I get rich or die trying. All in all, I'd rather be a poor but respected writer than a rich but evil hearted corporate slave. But there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a rich writer either! As for Ebay, I know it well. It's saved my butt more than once! Matter of fact, it bought last week's groceries! All hail Ebay! Respectfully, Meta Smith | ||
| Dr_j First Time Poster Username: Dr_j Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
It should be remembered by all that at one time it was considered illegal for black folks to know how to read. Then it was believed that black folks didn't read, so why publish books by and about black folks in any genre. Now things have come full circle and black folks can choose from a number of genres on black life, be it high brow lit or hood fiction. I think the wider the choice, the better for everyone. Its like watching TV...if you don't want to see half-dressed black women in music videos, turn to another channel. If you don't want to read street lit, don't----choose another genre to read. Lots are available. But keep something in mind...as you browse the bookstores, notice how small the AA sections are compared to the offerings available to the mainstream white readership. Any black editor will tell you that when looking at the BIG picture, the overall number of AA titles pales in comparison, regardless of genre, celebrity status of its author or cost. Regards, Roland S. Jefferson, author of DAMAGED GOODS & THE SCHOOL ON 103RD STREET & ONE NIGHT STAND | ||
| Prettybabygirl "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Prettybabygirl Post Number: 146 Registered: 04-2005 Rating: N/A |
Say Jefferson, Since when do half-dressed BLACK women appear in the music videos of Black male artists? They're usually Non-Black women. Just like the WHITE WOMAN on the cover of your book "Damaged Goods", which is why I didn't support it. | ||
| Dr_j Newbie Poster Username: Dr_j Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Prettybabygirl; Your comments are right. I do indeed understand your feelings about the cover. But had you read Damaged Goods beyond the cover, you would appreciate the fact that the black male character is in fact the moral center of the story, and not the white girl. I've been to many black female bookclubs for readings and signings. They initially posed the very same question about the cover as you did. My respose has always been and remains this: Had I written about a black woman who was this dysfunctional, I would have been castigated and accused of perpetuating a negative stereotype of black women as low class, illiterate sexually driven drug addicts. And because the storyline required a woman with those characteristics, I purposefully made the character white. Hearing this rationale, they then conceded that was true, they would indeed have criticized me along those lines. Having said that, however, the new publisher undoubtedly felt the cover of the book needed changing, and so you see the new design features no women at all, but a man. Regarding the issue of women in music videos, I beg to differ with you. Many are indeed black women. And many are fair-skinned black women. So I guess we still have quite a ways to go on the issue of color. But thats another book. Regards, Roland J | ||
| Deebaby Veteran Poster Username: Deebaby Post Number: 63 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
I hear Nick loud and clear It's like Mos Def contrast with Lil John Common and Nelly There are artists who take time to create masterpieces they they can be proud of and there are hustlers who are jumping on this great big bandwagon of (what I consider) garbage that they know will sell And I'm tired of hearing Black folks talk about what white folks do or do too We ain't white and the sooner some of us get that the better There IS NO comparison if ya ask me... | ||
| Deebaby Veteran Poster Username: Deebaby Post Number: 64 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
REGARDING: "Contrary to popular belief, everyone who voices an opposing view or opinion, isn't hatin' or a wannabe. Some do have standards, those aren't popular these days, but nevertheless, and it isn't always about the dollar. Lots of people get paid, but paid to what, is the key. We have got to jump off the fence, and stand boldly on one side, or the other. ______________________________________________ Amen tuh dat! | ||
| Byquist First Time Poster Username: Byquist Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2006 Rating: |
I saw the NY Times article back in January, and now will be taking it into a Critical Thinking Jr. College class for discussion and debate. Many posters here write in a theoretical or philosophical mode, with no necessary association or attachment to the actual youth Chiles mentions who are reading it. I saw these novels when teaching Jr. High in NYC and it is graphic, and weird to see an innocent 7th grade girl taking it in as if this is how her future years should be experienced. It's great to see the child reading, but how is the content going to successfully shape the youth's long-term social and physical health, and overall viewpoint on living? Further, what would Langston Hughes think of this genre? What would Martin Luther King this of this genre? | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 156 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: |
I hear what you're saying Byquist but that's kind of a different subject...Why do children have access to books geared towards adults? Should bookstores and libraries check IDs for age before distributing the books? Aren't parents ultimately responsible for what their children have access to? What would Martin or Langston think of the genre? Since Martin was a religious leader, I think the answer is obvious. With Langston, I'm not so sure. What would Donald Goines think? What does Toni Morrison think? We could ask those types of questions over and over again. The question is, does the buying public care about what the elders think or would have thought when it comes to what they want to accept as entertainment? It kind of reminds me of how some of the newer comedians don't really care about what Bill Cosby thinks. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1313 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
A young black man gets a job driving cheuferring a rich young heiress around town. The heiress meets her boyfriend for a regular screw in the backseat as the young black man watches in the rearview mirror. Later the young black man finds himself in the white girl's bedroom who is now in a drunken stupor. Scared out of his wits when he hears a noise in the hallway, he accidentally suffocates the girl with a pillow, then takes her down in the basement and when her body won't fit in the furnace, he takes his switchblade from his pocket and saws into the flesh of her neck with it until he hits the bone, which his blade won't cut through. He then gets an ax and finishes beheading the white woman before stuffing her into a furnace and incinerating her. Later, in his flight to escape prosecution, he drags his black girlfriend with him, rapes her then bashes her head in with a rock, until the hand that he's bashing her head with feels like its landing on wet cotton instead of a bloody pulp of a head. This book is now considered a literary masterpiece, but in the 40's when it was written, it was considered violent, vicious, smut and the man who wrote it, a black man, had his life threatened numerous times because of it. I'm positive that black folks in his day were holding there heads and wondering why a black man would want to degrade his race in this fashion much the way some do now about the state of black writers. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?? Wonder if any of these folks from Richard Wright's day would see him as LITERARY now instead of the purveyor of SMUT AND VIOLENCE that they called him back in his day? | ||
| Byquist Newbie Poster Username: Byquist Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2006 Rating: N/A |
You make some fair arguments there. Actually, I've found that one student in one class had read one that Chiles mentioned, "The Hustler's Wife." She's a good student, and says she even goes to church. Go figure! She sees reading these as temporary, but she also says they really hold her interest. Her mother doesn't approve and refuses to let her 15-year old sister read them. In another class, one student, an adult, had read and enjoyed one of Chiles books. It would seem to undermine the intent of recent NYC efforts to load all classrooms with really quality books, very expansive, multi-cultural and international in scope. There's another article today in the NY Times, biography of an author who just signed a six-figure deal with a publisher. Obviously, it will continue to make Chiles shudder. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1314 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
WoW! six figures! we should all be so fortunate!. Yes, I have been saying since I arrived here on this site that many young people like reading these type books because the writers are great STORYTELLERS, but most are not good writers. there is a difference. But I think, there is room for all types of books, as there always have been! | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1315 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
i meant "always has been" of course | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 158 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
I think you're referring to the deal Relentless Aaron just signed. We've been discussing that topic here: http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/9953.html?1140119060 Quite an interesting New York Times article. | ||
| Aisha First Time Poster Username: Aisha Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2006 Rating: |
I know I'm late but I just joined. : ) Regardless of how you feel about street-lit/commercial fiction/etc versus literary fiction, the article was written by an author whom I would not consider a literary author. I read A Love Story by Mr. Chiles and his wife Denene Millner--an I enjoyed it, BUT no way in h*ll is it literary fiction. It is commercial fiction. So, I think Mr. Chiles--and others--should be careful to judge certain genres or writers, etc because I am sure they are some literary authors who would look down there nose at the work of both him and his wife--jointly and seperate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Check out this review on A LOVE STORY: From Publishers Weekly Dual narrators enliven this best-friends romance by husband/wife duo Millner and Chiles (Love Don't Live Here Anymore). Aaron Simmons and Nina Carruthers met in kindergarten and established an unwavering bond that only grew stronger over the next 25 years. Aaron, an aspiring photographer, tends bar at a strip club, while Nina works in marketing. They finally consummate their relationship, begin a passionate love affair and decide to live together, but conflict arises. Never comfortable with Aaron's job, Nina sneaks a visit to the club, curious about the only dancer Aaron once confessed he might date. In fact, before Aaron and Nina were a couple, he had a brief sexual encounter with Cocoa, but his is not the only secret in their relationship: Nina doesn't tell Aaron when she has to bail her father out of jail. Hoping for a fresh start, Nina offers to support Aaron while he pursues his photography career. Things brighten briefly, but photos of Cocoa revive Nina's insecurities just as she and Aaron must confront a critical decision. Astute readers will guess the plot twist that shapes the novel's closing pages, but the skillful and balanced rendering of his/her voices deepens the reader's insights into the characters' symbiotic relationship. This above-average summer romance should find its way to many beach blankets. Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NOW CHECK OUT THESE REVIEW ON HIS WIFE'S NEWEST BOOK, THE VOW: From Publishers Weekly Starred Review. Veteran author Millner (What Brothers Think, What Sistahs Know) has teamed with Burt-Murray and Miller (editors at Jane and Teen People, respectively) to produce an emotionally charged portrait of contemporary Hollywood with a cast of unforgettable characters. Reunited at a wedding on New Year's Eve, three 30-something sorority sisters pledge to become engaged within a year. Trista Gordon, a power hungry talent agent, will do whatever it takes to beat her politically connected colleague, Steven Banks, to a partnership. Beautiful actress Amaya Anderson, in line for her first leading role, juggles two boyfriends while focusing on toning down her flashy image. Slightly plump Vivian Evans, an entertainment journalist, remains hopelessly in love with her son's father, her ex-husband. Fortified with new skills meant to drive a man wild, the trio find their wants don't often meet those of their romantic prospects, who include a basketball star, a closeted gay attorney and a hip-hop artist. Readers will eagerly turn the pages of this edgy, sexy novel to learn what's happening next. Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. Kirkus Reviews "A warm-hearted Jackie Collins-meets-Terry McMillan ode to sisterhood, with a few surprises." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ First, let me say I enjoyed both books for the mindless escapism they brought. Nothing at all in either book made me go, "Insightful, groundbreaking, and unique." Neither projects are at all literary. Good? Yes. Entertaining. Yes? Literary? Hell to the no. Chill out, Mr. Chiles. Don't throw stones because some could be thrown at you. A. |
