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Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 303
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 07:49 pm: | 
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REPRINTED FROM BLOGGING IN BLACK http://blogginginblack.com
BLACK AUTHOR TAKES PENGUIN TO COURT By Opinion
Author, Millennia Black has stepped out in a bold way and deserves support.
Her story in short: Penguin bought her first book. The story had nothing to do with race and the character’s race wasn’t even defined. However, they marketed to the AA commercial fiction niche because Millennia is black.
Her second book she wrote with white characters. The publisher demanded that Millenia Black change the race of the characters to match her own skin. Her story, told in her own words can be found on her blog http://milleniablack.blogspot.com. Her final recourse for equal treatment by the publisher is the court system. Nonblack authors can write white characters if they choose with little notice or censure by the publishing industry. For example, bestselling Asian author Tess Garritsen writes white characters in her thrillers. She isn’t forced to change her character’s race to Asian because she is, and market her books in some special Asian fiction niche. This is what Millenia says about her decision to sue:
Many people say the “nigger treatment” is virtually the only way an author’s allowed to participate in the industry if they’re not white. If the racist practices are challenged, they’ll be dumped before the ink dries on their last print run. And, of course, being blackballed in a racist system would just be the end of the author’s world. Time to make funeral arrangements…you’re as good as lynched.
But, as far as I’m concerned, there’s no value in playing the game when the rules support white supremacy. Should an employee be forced to endure discrimination (or harassment) just so he can stay employed? Should an author be forced to endure racist classification just so he can stay published?
Justice will always elude those who are insidiously subdued by fear.
Career or no career, the genre of a book should not be determined by its author’s color. An author should not have to lie about his or her skin color in order to obtain equitable handling by a publisher. An author’s skin color should not determine where his or her books will likely be shelved by a bookseller, or whether or not some booksellers will even order said book. The color of an author should be of no interest in any acquisition. If they want a book about black people, that’s what should be acquired - a book about black people.
I don’t know if she will prevail in her suit, but she prevailed by taking a stand. We should support the huge personal sacrifice she’s giving that we couldn’t make.
What could this do to the black niche? If Millennia wins, white publishers could refuse to publish commercial and genre black-authored books if they can no longer discriminate by race and market black genre authors solely to black people. The incomes, hopes and dreams of many black authors could be destroyed. White people aren’t going to start reading our books overnight.
But don’t lose sight of what we’ve learned. We read. We buy books. Black readers will support us. There is a market. Authors can sell directly to the market, thus not passing the profit on to the white stockholders as is done now, but putting the profits back into our pockets. If the publisher flow of black books dry up, the demand will remain.
Black authors would be immeasurably better off financially meeting the reading demands of our community as individuals instead of replaceable and lowly cogs in the corporate wheel.
A lot of black writers resent Millenia for not representing the so-called “black experience” in her work, but the bottom line is this: your skin color doesn’t automatically mean you’ll have a certain outlook on life. It doesn’t automatically mean you will share the same “experience” as everyone else of that race.
Every writer should have the right to their own artistic expressions. If Millenia decides that she wants her work to be free of racial barriers so it can be commercially marketable, that decision should be supported, because too much has been lost in the name of attaining that type of freedom. Who are we to try and take it from her? To condemn her, openly or not, for her artistic choices? That makes us just as guilty as the publishers who see no problem with keeping black writers suppressed because we’re AA, boxed into writing and selling to other AA’s, and not good for much else.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6649
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 01:38 pm: |
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I think a persons talents, like experiences, education and interests should MOST infor her-his writing. Not her-his race. Now, it's understandable why a Black novelist might more frequently write about Black characters and situations. Because that's largely what they will know and feel. But they shouldn't be FORCED to do such. Moreover, I should think that it would NOT be in the best interests of publishers to attempt extort an author to write something that she-he does NOT really want to write.
I wonder how much of this has to do with the publishers thinking that it will be difficult to market (especially via visual media, book touring and signings, etc.) a Black author writing about White foks. They're probably assuming that neither White nor Black readers would be moved by such. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5540
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 02:31 pm: |
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I agree, Babygirl. Your concise observation says it all. Has anybody ever said that a male couldn't write about females, - or vice-versa? |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 3739
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 05:41 pm: |
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ABM,
Isn't this the same woman who got outrageously upset when a Black bookstore owner mentioned her "race" while promoting her upcoming appearance at his store?
And haven't there been more than a few black authors to write WHITE driven novels (Zora Hurston, for instance, wrote an entire novel with all white characters) back in 1938.
There were two black male novelists in the late 60's/early 70's who wrote predominately WHITE novels and made a very good living at it.
I can't help but be "irked" by a certain something in this woman's constant bickering about being identified as "black"----and of course she could have always been far more successful at having people see her as "raceless" if she'd simply self-published and marketed herself as "raceless".
I find this very bizarre as I do believe I could submit an all-white book to a major house and get that published easier than I could a book whose protagonist is a blue black woman. Several black women authors have noted the same thing.
But whatever's going on...I wish Millenia Black all the best in her struggle and I support her right to define herself and her work. She should be allowed to do that no matter what anyone thinks of her.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6657
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 05:48 pm: |
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Kola,
So if I read you correctly, you think this woman's REAL issue is that of being Black in itself. |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 3741
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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I started a new thread called "DISCUSS" that I think proves that assertion ABM.
I used a very telling patch from her blog. I'm sure there are more.
But I still support her right to create and BE Millenia Black as she so wishes.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6660
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 05:57 pm: |
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Kola,
Sorry. I meant to say "...this woman's REAL issue is that of being ASIAN", not "Black". |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 3744
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 06:13 pm: |
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Well Millenia Black's issue is being "Black"---and Tess Gerritsen's issue is being "Asian". That's what I believe.
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Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 722
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 08:31 pm: |
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Frank Yerby wrote tons of novels featuring almost exclusively white characters; Chester Himes wrote "Cast the first stone" or "Yesterday Will Make You Cry," which was about a white kid in prison, and Baldwin of course wrote "Giovanni's Room," about a white bisexual. All of this was decades ago.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5547
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
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I forgot about Frank Yerby! He was a contemporary of another black author who was from Chicago, - Willard Motley, who also wrote books about whites, his most noteworthy one being "Knock On Any Door," a riveting bestseller when it came out waaay back in the day. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2845
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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I think this woman is full of it. |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 252
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 01:18 pm: |
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Since this is the author's 2nd complaint being classified by race, it brings to mind 2 things:
1. She despised being classified as an African-American author because we are only a small percentage of Americans and have less buying power than the mainstream. Of course, this can also mean she has self-hatred and may not be proud to be a black person, much like Kola said, she sees it as some sort of deficiency.
2. She knows how to stir up attention and cause controversy. And we all know, controversy sells. Before her 2 claims about being mistreated because of her race, I had never heard of her. Now because of these claims, I know (and everyone who is posting or reading these posts) knows too. I might not run out and buy her book to see what the controversy is all about but I'll bet a lot of people will. On this subject, I will have to admit the girl is working the media to her advantage. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5557
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 02:25 pm: |
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True dat. |
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 304
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 06:05 pm: |
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Actually, I don't know that I would necessarily agree that she is working the media to her advantage because up until this point she's been very quiet on the subject. When she was told to change the characters for book 2 she balked, threatened to sue and they subsequently changed their mind. Now as I am made to understand it, book 3 of her contract has now been cancelled since it's become evident she will not be writing black and thus the lawsuit.
Nor do I agree that her problem is about her being black. Authors, most especially black females who are writing women's fiction / chicklit/ romance are all experiencing what Millenia is complaining about. Publishers have deemed their work unworthy of the whole public and will only barely market such to a black readership. These authors aren't being afforded an opportunity to reach the masses if reaching the masses was their goal because it's the thought that white dollars won't buy the material so why bother to even try to sell to them.
And bottom line what Millenia is saying is that she should be allowed to write what she wants to write and not be told that she can only write what her publishers deems her worthy or capable of writing.
On a personal note, I didn't much like her book. The writing wasn't that great but to each his/her own. |
Msprissy
Regular Poster
Username: Msprissy
Post Number: 53
Registered: 03-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 07:48 pm: |
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Ms. Millenia Black, the author of Betrayal, and Penguin Publishing.
Ms. Millenia Black, a black author, is taking Penguin to court. She wrote that Penguin bought her first book. The story had nothing to do with race and the character’s race wasn’t even defined. However, they marketed to the AA commercial fiction niche because she is black. “Her second book, ‘Betrayal,’ was written with white characters. The publisher demanded that she [Ms. Black] change the race of the characters to match her own skin.”
Ms. Black says “Her final recourse for equal treatment by the publisher is the court system. Nonblack authors can write white characters if they choose with little notice or censure by the publishing industry.” She feels that “the genre of a book should not be determined by its author’s color.”
My opinion
African American authors fought for recognition of their work and their own section in bookstores, and finally received them. They were satisfied, for a while. Then some were delegated to a Black niche at a book fair, and were upset that that niche was back in a corner somewhere. Now we are at another milestone in the book industry. Now that the publishers recognize us as a Black niche, to our chagrin, they are making millions off our depiction of our community, good or bad, refusing to mix us in with all books.
I don't want my worked nitched. I write commercial/mainstream/fiction and paranormal. Often, I have to go back over my manuscript to see if I've identified the race of my characters. When I wrote my vampire stories a friend said I had to rewrite it giving them a color. What matter, I said, they are vampires!
I agree with Ms. Black that every author should have a right to their own artistic expressions.
I believe her case has been filed with the court. Win or lose, the legal decision will influence writers working through agents and publishing houses, thereafter.
We have to go where the wild flowers grow: sign with publishers who won’t pigeonhole us. On the other hand, let’s be real, very few authors will walk away from a chance to be picked up by a publisher.
Either way, Ms. Black is in a precarious position: the possibility of being blacklisted by the industry. Whether we agree with her decision to sue or not, I feel we should support her. One way is to keep her name and her book before the public. Some writers have agreed to put the issue on their blogs. Perhaps we can help her win in the “court of public opinion;” a bit of reverse marketing. This conversation is still raging in Bloging in Black.
Minnie E Miller
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Nolanfane
Regular Poster
Username: Nolanfane
Post Number: 344
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 03:00 pm: |
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Minnie Miller answer this.
Since she's not priority of selling to the black community why does she have to bring all this to us? Why we supposed to rally up and picket for sister girl? Can't her white supporters carry this one?
There is something so O.J. about this sister's bullshit.
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Msprissy
Regular Poster
Username: Msprissy
Post Number: 54
Registered: 03-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 07:48 pm: |
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Nolanfane, you missed the point.
Win or lose, the legal decision will influence writers working through agents and publishing houses, thereafter. If you are a writer you are part of the literary market and will be affected.
minnie e
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2848
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 05:02 pm: |
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It reminds me of Clarence Thomas whining about a Hi Tek lynching. |
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 305
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 05:27 pm: |
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And the other point you missed Nolan is that this isn't happening to other writers, just black writers. White writers can write about black folk, blue folk, green folk, and their editors and publishers don't tell them they have to change the race of their characters to match their own skin tones.
White writers can write a mystery or a romance or a self-help book and have it shelved in mystery, romance, and self-help. Black writers are the only ones who are shelved black simply because they are black, whether their material is ethnicentric or not. Many have no problems with it, it makes it easier for their readers to find them, but it also restricts their ability to reach the larger masses and possibly garner a larger share of that royalty pie.
If it was wrong to put black folks on the back of the bus simply because they weren't white, then why suddenly is it okay to shelf us in the back of the store because we are black?
If Millenia loses this case, then certain writers who want to write scifi or vampire stories because that's what they want to write will suddenly have to change their vampires to whatever the publishers says they want them to be, thus controlling that author's creative expression for the sake of having that book deal.
The point that's being missed is that this isn't about a black woman just wanting to write white because she's got a problem with being black. That's hardly her problem no matter how the peanut gallery tries to twist her words against her.
This is about an author just wanting to write what she wants to write and being told that because she's black, she can't. For this reason, and this reason alone, everyone should support her. |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 149
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Babygirl I might be inclined to side with Ms. Black if it weren't for the fact that so many black authors have written and published all-white character novels at major publishing houses going all the way back to the depression when Zora did it. This sounds like an isolated dispute between a writer and editor. Perhaps the editor was pressured to go for sales and pressured Black wrongly? Obviously this is not an industry wide practice as Msprissy claims. This is Ms. Black's fight rather than a problem in general for black authors. St. Martin's Press has a black author who writes white mysteries as a "white man" and I'm told there are others.
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Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 306
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 07:37 pm: |
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There are others, but the numbers are actually quite minimal, Enchanted and interestingly, those black authors writing non-black character's successfully were and are able to do so because it was well after they were published that most were discovered to be black. After they'd already garnered an audience interested in their work. And isn't it even more telling that you could probably count on one hand the number of black authors writing somthing other than black fiction with any success? And why should a black author who wants to write white mysteries have to write such as a "white man" to garner any acceptance and respect from the market?
The publishing market is steadily changing and self-publishing and urban literature have helped to redefine many of those changes, some for the good, and some not.
Ultimately, Ms. Black has been one of the only black authors who has been willing to risk her entire writing career for what she believes to be an injustice. Far too many others who have experienced just what she has experienced book after book choose to remain silent because making the changes and saying nothing keeps them in contract and keeps them paid. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1370
Registered: 05-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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I might be inclined to side with Ms. Black if it weren't for the fact that so many black authors have written and published all-white character novels at major publishing houses going all the way back to the depression when Zora did it. This sounds like an isolated dispute between a writer and editor. Perhaps the editor was pressured to go for sales and pressured Black wrongly? Obviously this is not an industry wide practice as Msprissy claims. This is Ms. Black's fight rather than a problem in general for black authors.....
I TOTALLY agree! And aint that many white people, asians, or any other race writing about white people that much and white people aint writing about black people or other races that much either... I think the problem is about MS Black vs her publisher and nothing more...
And lets not forget about Richard Wright's first book NATIVE SON also it was more about white society and white people than anything else. |
Msprissy
Regular Poster
Username: Msprissy
Post Number: 56
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 08:38 pm: |
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>>>>Obviously this is not an industry wide practice as Msprissy claims.<<<<<
I don't recall claiming this. I rarely make generalities. I have no evidence that this issue is industry wide. In fact, if you read my original post, my remarks were taken from Ms. Black.
I did warn to watch out for the blacklash if this law suit goes forward.
Minnie E Miller |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 07:19 pm: |
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I meant to write "aint that many PEOPLE, asian or any other race..." |
Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 12 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 11:52 pm: |
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I could write an entire book on this alone but will keep it brief. When Millenia first published The Great Pretender, she attended the grand opening of my bookstore in Baltimore so I knew that she was black right off the break. She was trying to get a publishing deal with a traditional house at the time and ended up with my agent because of my recommendation. She is still her agent. All of this law suit stuff has taken flight without everyone knowing the majority of the facts. Someone from the Wall Street Journal even called me to discuss it.
The bottom line is that publishers have a right to refuse a manuscript and they can refuse it for any reason. I know this for a fact because I am a publisher and I refuse many manuscripts for books already under contract if I feel the book is not publishable. I have done it at least four times in the last six months and insisted that the authors go back to the drawing board. Why do I have that right? Because I am the one taking on all the expenses. Millenia could have stayed self-published but she wanted to be with a house and personally sent her book out to many AA imprints that were clearly AA imprints.
She ended up with a regular imprint of Penguin-NAL-but the fact remains that she knowingly was willing to get picked up by an AA imprint or she would not have submitted her book to them. If it was such an issue, why was that okay? Was she willing to be signed to an AA imprint and then demand to write a white book? I honestly don't believe that she has a leg to stand on in court but you never know. Often times companies will settle just to get people out of their hair and to save legal expenses.
As for the comments about AA authors having to be pigeonholded with only AA readers, that is nonsense. I am published in several different languages including Danish, Thai, Greek and I have two titles in Japanese. How many AA people do you know that live in Japan and read fluent Japanese? Other well known authors are published in many different languages and, unless I am crazy, Millenia herself is published in at least one other one. To sell millions of books, which is pretty much what it takes to be a NY Times Bestselling Author, you have to have readers of other races. My readers come from all races and show up at my booksignings to prove it.
With regard to the AA sections in bookstores, they sell more books PERIOD and I have the sales figures to back that up. In fact, I can also tell you that one major chain is considering going back to AA sections in their stores because after test marketing in select stores, sales for AA titles have gone up more than 60%. In a perfect world, books would be shelved in more than one place but in the real world, shelf space is limited in stores and bookstores make that decision where they place books; not the publisher. Authors need to consider themselves lucky to be in the store because due to the large number of AA titles being published, a lot of the chains are beginning to only stock some of them in their warehouses and ship only as special orders when someone calls or comes in to ask for them.
Ironically I recently did a signing and speech at the Los Angeles Latino Family and Book Festival (even further proof that all my readers are not AA) and the Latino authors were all envious of AA authors for having specialized sections in stores. They feel like needles in the haystacks mixed in with other people. One reason why the books sell better in an AA section is because based on focus groups, more than 60% of consumers make a point of purchase decision. They have no idea what they plan to buy when they come in the store. The remaining people are usually in there to buy because of word of mouth advertising, which means that where the book is shelved makes zero difference.
It is okay to fight battles but we need to fight them wisely. I am the last person who is afraid of standing up for something that I believe is wrong, especially racist, but I do not think that is the case here. Now if you really want to do something positive, I am starting a fundraising campaign tomorrow to help out Black Images Book Bazaar in Dallas. They are closing at the end of the month but myself and many other authors are going to try to help Emma Rodgers and her partner pay off their debt. After supporting AA authors for more than 30 years, they deserve to at least walk away in the clear.
Lastly let me say that a lot of authors can find something to complain about. I told the reporter at the Wall Street Journal that maybe I should start a protest because my books are usually not shelved at all because of the high theft rate. I asked him, "How am I supposed to get new readers if my books are not on the floor at all and people have to ask for them at the desk?" He said that he noticed that my books were behind the counter at a store and agreed that I had a valid point. Will I start some drama over it? No, not at all. I am grateful to be in the store.
For those in touch with Millenia, ask her did she start a protest about both of her books being Black Expressions selections. I would be curious to know the answer. That means more than 450,00 subscribers will know that she is an AA author. Heaven forbid that.
Blessings,
Zane |
Sisg
Regular Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 269
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 09:29 am: |
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Well i wouldn't know what all the fuss is about...some of us are just trying to get published, get into bookstores, and get paid by those who publish us....that's the flip side of things, sometimes people just don't know when they are blessed! THanks Zane for the information and background! |
Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2004
Rating:
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Here is a link to the article written in the Wall Street Journal. I think he did a great job and it further begs the question why the author would choose the pen name Millenia Black if being subjected exclusively to the AA book market was such an issue for Nadine Aldred (her real name), a name that could have easily had people wondering what her race was or assuming that she was white.
Wall Street Journal Article
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB116537479351441964-lMyQjAxMDE2NjA1NjMwNzY0 Wj.html |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 11:48 am: |
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Zane said:
"I could write an entire book on this alone but will keep it brief. When Millenia first published The Great Pretender, she attended the grand opening of my bookstore in Baltimore so I knew that she was black right off the break. She was trying to get a publishing deal with a traditional house at the time and ended up with my agent because of my recommendation. She is still her agent. All of this law suit stuff has taken flight without everyone knowing the majority of the facts. Someone from the Wall Street Journal even called me to discuss it".
=======
This is unbelievable representation by a renown publisher/author as Zane.
You're ill-advised to make such disclosures of unsubstantiated remarks concerning author Millenia Black. The whole posit you've made has merely revealed that though you're successful in a literary esoteric field, are still naive to the realities of racial discrimination in America. Insensitive to efforts all are to make in eradicating the practice completely.
Really, only an uncritical thinker would find it necessary to attract someone else in such a context as you've done here. It would be wiser if you'd kept your mouth shut, and not unwittingly damaging your own image by the things you expressed attracting Ms. Nadine Aldred (if I spell her name correctly). Wrong and unnecessary.
Hey, it's alright that you got lucky on the plantation, how many others have? Most will have to get off of it you know? Open your eyes!
You have proof of giving Millenia Black, (Ms. Aldred) your agent, proof that she had self-published first novel, TGP... but do you have proof that she personally submitted her work to black-imprint/s? If so, where's the proof? How can you allow yourself to bite into others skin like that, without the facts or good cause?
Ultimately, Ms. Zane. You have come across like author Black has hurt you, if so, why don't you first tell us about that. We'll then understand the reason for your umbrage.
Why don't you address the real issue? I observed that it's about whether or not publishers treat white authors differently than they do minorities, on the count of genre and classification. |
Tuliploverly
First Time Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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Wait...I'm a little bit fuzzy on Zane's position. You're upset with MB because you say she's being ungrateful? Why would that upset you so much? You're not the one she's suing for race discrimination. Are we missing a piece of the puzzle here? As a publisher (a black one at that), you reserve the right to discriminate in the way you handle your authors based on their race ? WHAT?? Assuming you deal with writers of various races that is....would hate to think your business was racist....
Then I don't get the idea that the name 'Millenia Black' has a 'black person' implication. 'Millenia' is unusual for a person's name, but it's a car so it's generic and could be anyone's name, and the last name 'Black' speaks for itself. There are tons of Caucasians (and other ethnicities) with that surname.
Zane's post is very bizarre. Perhaps she and Ms. Black have a "beefy" history? Zane seems to be foaming at the mouth here, like she has an ax to grind. Bizarre.
J. Hanks |
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 309
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 08:48 pm: |
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The publishing business being what it is, I would expect nothing more from any "publisher" since, for them, the bottom line is always about the bottom line, no matter what indignities one must inflict on others to get there. The way that commercial fiction authored by black writers is distributed brings in lots of money for publishers just as Zane noted. It sells better when it's segregated out so why should they screw with what's making the publishers money. Hell, plantation owners had the same idea when they deemed black labor more cost effective. We know they didn't give a rat's ass if it was wrong or not. To hell with principle. Why should black authors question the blatant differences in treatment of their work from that of non-black authors just because they happen to be black and for no other reason? It's obvious most publishers will sooner condone their racist behaviors and attitudes before they will ever condone fucking with the bottom line.
As Zane noted, she is one of the fortunate few to have her work translated into multiple languages with her distribution crossing the racial barriers, but lets be real. Not only will the majority of new and current authors never reach that level of success, it's highly unlikely they will ever be able to do so when they have to start in a seemingly smaller playing field than non-blacks and heaven forbid they attempt to reach such a goal doing something others are skeptical about, and most especially if they choose to write under a pseudonym or heaven forbid, a one-name moniker that might be construed to be one race and not another. Seems only a select few are allowed such a priviledge.
And with respect to Ms. Black, I don't think she gives a care one way or another whether readers know her race or not. Her battle is about being able to write the characters she chooses to write and still have her publishing agreements honored. If she's talented enough to be given a contract, if the story is deemed acceptable, then why would the color or her character's skin be of issue? Why should she be accepting of anyone telling her that her story and all its idiosyncrasies are loved but since she's black her characters must be as well? I would imagine that if her publisher felt they had every right to refuse her story they would have, rather than change their minds so abruptly, most especially since publishers have the right to refuse for any reason. According to Zane publishers have carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want to. Millenia's publisher wanted to change their minds since they did publish her story as written once their actions were called into question.
But really, change your characters because you're black and they aren't? What if Millenia had been writing SciFi and her characters were green? Would telling her to make them black have been okay then? I don't see publishers telling James Patterson he can't have a black male character because he's not a black male. What next? A female erotica author being told that she can only write sex if she's having it? Must she be a slut to write about sluts?
Those who want to be grateful for the scraps their being served should be. For those who know they deserve a full piece of the pie and are willing to say so, I say fight a good fight. You surely have more to gain than you will ever have to lose.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6861
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 07:23 am: |
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I am ambivalent on the issue of segregating books written by African Americans. Because although I share some of the reservations expressed by polemics of literary segregation, I suspect that segregation helps aid the sale of lesser-known Black authors.
Books authored by AA's are amongst the very FEW sections of the book business whose sales have INCREASED over the last 5 years. You gotta figure the recent proliferation of AA book sales is partly a product of how AA books are marketed, which includes where and how they are placed & displayed. |
Tuliploverly
First Time Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
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I agree with Babygirl's comments. And I would say too that it looks like Millenia Black's gripe has nothing to do with AA sections making money. I think Zane missed that point big time. Obviously the niche does make money and is thriving when book sales overall are slipping...But if MB's books are not AA fiction, there's no need to even go that far. The racism occurred long before a bookstore even HEARD about her books, just as Babygirl points out.
To note that books by BLACK authors sell better when they're segregated out, is proof positive that the industry is racist and needs to be reformed. Aren't we supposed to work from what the book is ABOUT? Not the color of the person that wrote it? What if MB doesn't write with HER skin color in mind and just wants to tell a story that can reach millions, not for the most part, ONLY black people?
Zane's success in foreign languages is the exception, not the rule, attracting those publishers because she is a NY Times bestseller in the US. ANY author that lands on that list will attract foreign publishers, that's a given. Even if they write total crap. If a market exists, buying it enough to hit the LIST, foreign publishers will see potential $$ signs in their markets too. It says a lot about Millenia Black's appeal that she got foreign deals from self-publishing alone, without having hit the LIST.
Speaking of that, the Wall Street Journal article mentioned Jennifer Weiner. Now....let's compare. How many foreign countries is JW published in? Many, many, MANY more than Zane. And she hasn't published HALF as many books as Zane!
I would love to get Zane's position on that point since she says it's nonsense that AA authors are pigeonholed, and effectively ghetto-ized.
I'd say the above JW v. Zane example is why this lawsuit is needed. Like the article says, if an author is definied as black, it's MUCH harder for them to hit the national bestseller lists. We can go on forever about how much success there is to be had in the AA marketplace, but it will NEVER equal the opportunities available in the non-race defined mainstream, which happens to be mostly non-black. More competition there, but more OPPORTUNITY too.
Every author should have the same opportunity not to be defined by their race if that's not what they're writing. |
Tuliploverly
First Time Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:37 am: |
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I forgot to add this on Zane's question about Millenia Black's books at Black Expressions. I read a posting on her blog entitled THE BOOK CLUBS and there's an answer to that question. She says she's honored/happy about it. Further proof that MB seems to stay away from being racially discriminatory. I admire that. If she's trying to reach the LARGEST POSSIBLE AUDIENCE, it would be foolish and contradicting to object to sales of ANY kind. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6870
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:15 am: |
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Tuliploverly,
If fewer books authored by Blacks are bought, fewer Black books will be sold, published and written. So if democracizing the placement of books lead to FEWER Book books sales, then it seems you may have won a battle that, ironically, leads to your losing a WAR.
And, ultimately, the mutually-signed CONTRACT between the author and publisher should dictate whether and how the author's work can/should be writted, edited/modified, distributed and marketed. If the CONTRACT allows the publisher to do what it chooses to do to sell the book, the author really has little legal and moral recourse to the contrary. |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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"" GENRE... CLASSIFICATION... VS. BLACK & WHITE
AUTHORS
HOW ARE THEY TREATED DIFFERENTLY"
**** -----**** --------- ****
Babygirl:
Wherever you're I love you for your thoughts.
Abm:
Reconsider the accuracy of your ambivalence, because it tilts towards receiving small meals on the "plantation" while waiting for a break to happen.
White folks will not give up on their business-as-usual discriminating practices that enriched them ever so much over the years, to slow-witted plantation-minded, idiots... so dull, diminutive in distinguishing between right and wrong...their very own justice they can't digest. But.
Whites will change overnight when blacks and other minorities, speaks with an enlightened tongue. It would be like a miracle. Yes they wouldn't even desired an attempt to act in a discriminatory manner, because they do understand that they'd feel hotly disdain by superior intellect.
***-------------*** -------------*** -----------
"AN AVERAGE INTELLECTUAL DISTINCTION"
Here's Ms. Jennifer Weiner
SHE SAYS:
((( Anyhow. I'm quoted in the story more or less agreeing with author Millenia Black that if my books were marketed as Jewish-American fiction and plopped into the Jewish section of your local Book-plex, they might not sell as well as they have.
Of course, in a quote that didn't make the story, I pointed out that there is no Jewish section of the bookstore -- at least not for fiction (that would be....the bookstore.) I also think that non-Jewish readers have an easier time picking up a book with Jewish characters than non-black readers might have picking up a book with black characters, particularly if, in order to find those books, you have to go to a section of the bookstore that practically screams, "NOT FOR YOU."
Interesting issues. No easy answers. Discuss amongst yourself. )))
----------- *********** ---------------------
What I have found wrong with Ms. Weiner's perspective on the subject matter is illustrative of what she has said in the following:
"Anyhow. I'm quoted in the story "more or less" agreeing with author Millenia Black that if my books were marketed as Jewish-American fiction and plopped into the Jewish section of your local Book-plex, they might not sell as well as they have."
"QUESTION"
Would she volunteered to initiate such a statement if she weren't confronted with officially and openly, where it would seems more embarrassing not to admit it? I thank not, what's your guess?
Though she has agreed to the obvious fact more or less, she really didn't help the story mush at all. She wouldn't or Couldn't give anyone a decisive commanding and universal logic on the point of view.
Se wobbles around into saying this:
""Interesting issues. No easy answers. Discuss amongst yourself.""
Folks who always jumped to giving everybody the "have it your own way" style doesn't really help our society to climb out the dark cognitive dungeon we so desperately need help to do. Famous people should at least try to buy some needed, above average enlightenment because they do bring along with them that gravity of populace influence. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2266
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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What is this lawsuit supposedly going to change? I get the part about discriminatory practices within the publishing industry, but the courts cannot force publishing houses to take on manuscripts which they deem unmarketable (if the publishing houses were subsidized with federal funds that would be a different matter). The publishers have a right to specify what types of stories, themes and characters they want their writers to focus on. And the courts can't force white ppl to buy/read black authors' books. Is it Ms. Black's intent to desegregate the bookstores? She expects the courts to dictate to the bookstores how they group their wares? What exactly does she hope to accomplish? Has anyone seen the actual court filings? |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 12:45 pm: |
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MZURI:
This is what you represent below:
"If the publishing houses were subsidized with federal funds that would be a different matter)."
You sound twisted on what the lawsuit can or can't do, and on another page you're then ambiguous. You smashed our focus and understanding in the quote above. Have you been reading the comments on this blog at all? Why not address the bottom line? Rather than meander to questioning a lawsuit you've not seen?
You've got to be out of your mind when you implicated that by having Fed funds, it could be used to do, in your own words...
"...force publishing houses to take on manuscripts which they deem unmarketable."
To help you out though, my understanding is that Ms. Black's gripe involves genre and classification. Contesting that her publisher, over her objection had AA'd her general-fiction work by plastering Black people on the cover art and, niching into minority sales attraction, when they would not have done that had she been a white author.
I hope that has brought a little sunshine to your before dawn darkness.
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Tuliploverly
First Time Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 01:23 pm: |
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Abm said:
----------
If fewer books authored by Blacks are bought, fewer Black books will be sold, published and written. So if democracizing the placement of books lead to FEWER Book books sales, then it seems you may have won a battle that, ironically, leads to your losing a WAR.
----------
Abm,
From what Millenia Black expressed on the matter in the Wall Street Journal and elsewhere, this discrimination case has nothing to do with fewer black books being bought, written, etc. Why can't everybody see that? Why must we bring up irrelevant points? This is about why a book that has no black characters was handled as if does. Why a book with WHITE characters was threatened with not being published unless the characters were made BLACK.
Are white authors ever put through this?
Abm said:
----------
And, ultimately, the mutually-signed CONTRACT between the author and publisher should dictate whether and how the author's work can/should be writted, edited/modified, distributed and marketed. If the CONTRACT allows the publisher to do what it chooses to do to sell the book, the author really has little legal and moral recourse to the contrary.
----------
I agree that the contract dictates the terms of the agreement, BUT, the civil rights laws dictate the terms of all contracts. Unless an author signs an agreement that clearly waives certain rights, a contract cannot give anyone the right to break the law. In this case, handle work differently based on the race of the party to the contract.
It is fairly clear to me that unless Penguin/NAL can prove they force white authors in the AA niche as they did MB, they're in deep do-do. Babygirl pointed out that they did ultimately back off and publish the book with the white characters once a lawyer got involved, but that's basically an admission they probably should never have made such a racist demand to begin with, don't you think?
Should publishers have the right to make such a demand? I say no way. Not unless they do it across the board to all races, not just blacks. Force James Patterson to right only about white people who look like him, middle-aged white men. Force Tess Gerritsen to write only about Asians. Force Sue Monk Kidd to write only about middle-aged white people. Same for Suzanne Brockman, etc, etc.
J. Hanks |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2268
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
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AncientReader - I'm not in the dark at all, except that I'm not familiar with the lawsuit and apparently you're not familiar with it either. If you would have bothered to read my post, instead of focusing your limited attention to hurling insults against me, you would have noticed that my post consists mostly of questions. Can you address any of those? Or not?
A lawsuit can't do anything except bring attention to an entity/issue. The court rulings would be the ultimate authority, if in fact those rulings are even implemented and observed. I'm sure we're all witness to the fact that some court rulings mean diddly-squat.
I repeat - the courts CANNOT FORCE a publishing house to expend its own funds on a project it deems unmarketable unless the publishing house is being subsidized with federal funds. What part of that don't you comprehend?
If you can expound upon any of this with some facts, I'd be interested in reading your response. Thank you. |
Tuliploverly
First Time Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 01:45 pm: |
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Mzuri,
But who said anything about the court trying to "force a publishing house to expend its own funds on a project it deems unmarketable"? The Journal article says she sued for 'race discrimination'. If it goes to trial, they will either be found liable for that, or not liable. This has nothing to do with FORCING the publisher to do anything but fork over damages if a judge/jury finds them liable for hurting the plaintiff.
J. Hanks |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2270
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 02:03 pm: |
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Tuliploverly - The reason I posted was to see if anyone here had any further details regarding the lawsuit. The WSJ article doesn't go into any specifics, it only mentions one complaint. Is that all there is to it? Typically lawsuits consist of more than one charge and demand multiple forms of relief (e.g. change of behavior, public apology, monetary compensation, etc). If the publishing industry is so pervasive in its discriminatory practices, one would think that the lawsuit contained additional allegations. |
Tuliploverly
Newbie Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 02:45 pm: |
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Mzuri,
Yes I'm sure it does. But I think it's best to stick with the confirmed facts, rather than speculate and alude to negative judgment based on that speculation as you comments came across. I apologize if I misunderstood your position.
Right now, we know she's alleging 'race descrimination', let's stick with that and not speculate about what else she may or may not be demanding. We know what she's alleged, if it's true, has she been racially discriminated against or not?
J. Hanks |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2272
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 03:32 pm: |
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Is it a confirmed fact that "MB" hasn't even bothered to hire an attorney for this matter and that she has filed this lawsuit pro se? If so, then she can't possibly be demanding very much. And she probably won't be taken seriously by the courts. I'm really curious to see this "lawsuit" now. |
Tuliploverly
Newbie Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 03:38 pm: |
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Hmm...
Mzuri,
Here we go again. Do YOU have an ax to grind with MB? Sure sounds like it. Sounds like you're really PO'd with her. Why?
I'd love to know what the suit says too and the publisher's response to it. They'll likely move to have it dismissed and if it's not, the court will take her just as seriously as if she had a cut throat lawyer repping her. I wish the best. Whether she wins or loses, the principle at stake is a worthy one.
J. Hanks |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2273
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 04:06 pm: |
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I have no axe to grind and I haven't said anything to indicate otherwise. I'm simply asking questions and have made no derogatory comments against MB. It seems that you have some personal involvement - do you?
I will say this though - if I had an important lawsuit, I'd hire an attorney. Unfortunately, the courts do NOT take you seriously when you represent yourself. You have heard the saying that only a fool represents himself, right? |
Tuliploverly
Newbie Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 04:23 pm: |
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Mzuri,
Others can chime in, but everything you've said indicates an intent to discredit Millenia Black and paint her position in a very negative light, as opposed to just sharing an opposing point of view.
The only personal leg I have is that I'm black and I want to have the equal freedom I am entitled to as this situation is calling for. Even if I choose to write black fiction, I would like the freedom to write in other genres if I so choose, without a publisher having the right to treat me differently because I am not white.
Again, your venom is leaking. A plaintiff can be pro se for a number of reasons. Who knows, she may even be an attorney herself. Do you know that she isn't? I've read her statements. Millenia Black is clearly not a fool. She may be fighting a losing battle with this lawsuit, but a fool she is not. Many in the past lost battles for freedom, she wouldn't be the first.
J. Hank |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2275
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 04:32 pm: |
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I'm not venomous nor do I have any untoward intentions at all. To be honest I don't really give a sh!t. I only even bothered to read this thread because Ms. Zane posted in it. Otherwise I couldn't care less. If Ms. Aldred is an attorney, then she should have hired an attorney. Only fools represent themselves in court. And other than that last comment, you cannot attribute one derogatory statement made by me against MB. |
Tuliploverly
Newbie Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 04:52 pm: |
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Mzuri,
So we still have to ask why you should be urged to make even ONE derogatory statement against Millenia Black, or any author like her? Does her insistence that she be treated non-racially offend you in some way?
I do care, and it's obvious you do too otherwise you would not've been going back and forth with me for the better part of this lovely Sunday. So you may as well admit it and not try to play non-chalant now. :0)
I would wait for the court outcome before calling anybody a fool. That's really mean.
I'm closing off on this thread too at this point. Carry on with your talk, but I hope you'll re-read what's been said above and think more about the implications of your position.
Enough said by me, it's dinnertime.
J. Hanks |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 5980
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 05:36 pm: |
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Well, a precedent could be set if a black publishing company unconditionally accepted a book of fiction about black people that was written by a white author. Has this happened? Is it likely that it will happen?? If the black publishing company balked at this idea, would this be a case of it exercising its right to practice equal opportunity discrimination? Would it be influenced by the idea that black readers might frown on such a book, thus reducing sales? Will Jay-Z and Beyonce get married. Will America find a way to get out of Iraq?? Will global warming incinerate us all???? |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2276
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 06:48 pm: |
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Can U read??? I didn't call anyone a fool. I wrote that only a fool represents himself in court. That's a proverb from within the legal system.
I'm starting to wonder if you are MB. Are you? |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 160
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 06:49 pm: |
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Yep. She is MB. Ding-ding-ding.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2277
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 06:53 pm: |
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Figures. |
Tuliploverly
Newbie Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 06:56 pm: |
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No, sorry if it disappoints you folks, but I am not Millenia Black. I'm Justine Hanks. But it's interesting that from all being discussed here, that would be the only place you had left to go with this. Very interesting.
J. Hanks
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2278
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 7 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 08:07 pm: |
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The only place to go? Don't think so. Some of us could sit up here and discuss this all night long, but it's really not that interesting. If you were going to divulge your true identity, then why didn't you register with that instead of TL? And BTW, everyday is Sunday for me - I'm self-employed. I told the whiteman to KMA a long time ago. |
Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2004
Rating:
Votes: 8 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 08:33 pm: |
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All I can do is be amused. I did not say that "SHE PROBABLY submitted her books to more than one AA imprint." I said that SHE DID and I am very careful about what I say and how I say it. I stand by every single word of my original commentary. Every last one. If I am lying, then have Millenia make a public statement that she never did send her book to an AA imprint. Ask her if she is willing to testify to that under oath in a courtroom or in a legal deposition. Better yet, tell her to call me a flat out liar. I don't have to present any proof here on this board but for the "smart ones," think on this. If she never sent her books to an AA imprint, they how come I run an AA imprint and still have 5-6 copies of the self-published version of her book. No, I am not the only one she sent it to either. You all have a good day.
Zane
Peace,
Zane |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 161
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 08:58 pm: |
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It took me a while but I finally got my take on this typed up so here it is. When I go to buy my music like Isley Brothers and Nancy Wilson I want it in the Soul and Jazz section where I can find what I want and be on my way. I notice that plenty of white people have no problem finding all their favorite black singers in the BLACK sections either. Motown Records was exlusively in the black section of the store but they sold more music to white teenagers than anybody same goes for the current rap craze. I notice the same with black books. We have certain authors in the black section like Zane, Terry McMillan, Eric Jerome Dickey, the biggies James Baldwin, Maya Angelou, Edward P. Jones that white customers seek out and purchase in droves. That is because the the very best of anything will always rise to the top just like cream. Just because you put a bunch of crappy black books all over the store does not mean they will sell MORE I don't believe they will. Whites make their book choices by magazine reviews, word of mouth and other publicity. A lot of whites buy black books if the author was on a radio program they listened to during rush hour. Walter Mosley sells huge sums of books to white buyers because he writes extremely well. Barak Obama sold more books to whites than black readers. Even the authors who write pro-black books like Toni Morrison sell millions to white readers. In every case we can see that the quality of the writing attracts huge numbers no matter where your book is placed am I correct? I have read two books by Millenia Black. They were OK but nothing to write home about. She is not a "gifted" writer like Maya Angelou or Zadie Smith and she is not the type of writer who has her hand on the pulse of the community like Zane and Terry McMillan do. Those writers are not all that great with technique or depth but they are like Beyonce and Whitney Houston, good POP music for the crowds and that is why Zane and Terry sell in the millions to all races. Millenia Black gets on my nerves with all her bullshit. She should be happy she's published at all and I am sure that there are publishing houses that will let black people write white characters. Several people named a list of black authors from years ago who have done this already. Why is she whining? Just start her own publishing company like Zane, call it WONDER BREAD and publish white charactered books. Then see if her white stories are any different from the black stories. Except for a few adjectives describing race she would be writing the same books which is why I don't care for her boring ass books. Yawn. I am done.
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Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 166
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:04 am: |
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Enchanted wrote:
I notice that plenty of white people have no problem finding all their favorite black singers in the BLACK sections either. Motown Records was exlusively in the black section of the store but they sold more music to white teenagers than anybody same goes for the current rap craze. I notice the same with black books. We have certain authors in the blacksection like Zane, Terry McMillan, Eric Jerome Dickey, the biggiesJames Baldwin, Maya Angelou, Edward P. Jones that white customers seekout and purchase in droves. That is because the the very best of anything will always rise to the top just like cream. Just because you put a bunch of crappy black books all over the store does not mean they will sell MORE I don't believe they will.
This is my thinking. There is only so much square footage in a store, and I doubt a store will obtain, at least two copies of every black book, and shelved them in two different places in the store. And, if white readers REALLY wanted to find, buy and read books by black authors, all they need to wonder over a few feet while in the bookstore. As you cite, with the black music section, white folks will have no problem finding the black books, in the black/AA section, in a bookstore, if they really wanted them.
On the other hand, I don't doubt that product placement matters, many vendors are paying big bucks for specific locations in a store, but it's not the be all, end all of this issue.
Wonder how long it will be before this post will get a three star rating.  |
Tuliploverly
Newbie Poster
Username: Tuliploverly
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 9 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 08:35 am: |
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I think it's obvious there's more to this with Zane. She definitely has an ax to grind and it appears she is determined to link herself with Millenia Black by making it known that she got her an agent and then trying to sully the woman's credibility and declaring a public challenge, getting people riled up to go attack her as well. Everything's on her sleeve. There's beef there. No doubt about it.
Beyond all that, my opinion remains that this is a worthy lawsuit and I'd like to see the court dispel the idea that a publisher can treat one author one way because they're black and another another way because they are white. Under all the debate, that's the bottom line.
I enjoyed the discussion folks.
J. Hanks
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Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 01:32 pm: |
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"SHOULD BLACK AUTHORS WORK BE CLASSIFIED BY GENRE, LIKE WHITE AUTHORS HAVE... IF YES, HAS MILLENIA BLACK'S PUBLISHER GIVEN HER THAT TREATMENT-- IF NOT, WHY?"
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Zane & Enchanted.
There're many people just like the two of you I regret to say, that for all possible purposes, would never lift one finger in a cause to get off the racist plantation controlled by the supremacist white folks,
your verbiage has said it all.
Clearly from your all mouths the evidence has gushed out that both of you're lost souls, really unsophisticated, unobservant, uncritical, devoid of the sense of racial discrimination in the US for centuries now. You guys are too much estranged from what's important to the racial cause. I feel like calling you guys some names but I'll refrain from that. I'll still give you some dignity though it may not well deserved by any of you.
I hope both of you will realize the wrong road you're treading down.
I'm very sure, that it's the both of you white people reading all of this blog are looking down on as damn black idiots who are self-defeating and not Millenia Black or the rest of us supporting the proper genre and classification issues, with regard to whites and black authors differential treatment.
How can the both of you gang upon a virtually unknown, a debut author as Millenia Black with just two books on the market, of which one has release just days ago if I'm not mistaken? Comparing her to aged authors in the business of long ago? Is this crazy in some kind of displaced judgment, or not? Where're you guys going with this?
Really, what could have happened to draw out such venom from the tongues of you guys in such force? Something has to be wrong... "Zane,
Enchanted"... tell us what that is please-- I don't think that any of us readers have yet perceive what Millenia Black has done to cause all of this foaming at the mouth by you guys.
But Zane, Millenia has not alleged anything here, so that it's imperative to put her on trial here.
You're playing the game of the "Wicked Witch Scanlon" when she called out for Millenia to display her complaint on her blog to that she has really filed a lawsuit. How absurd can you people be... and where is all your commonsense flew off to?
Why are you asking that she produce some kind of proof to the contrary of anything you're said in any place. Wake up Zane, the courtroom of Millenia's complaint is in New York, isn't that so? Is Millenia Black even aware that you're here making all these accusation against her and slaughtering her in this kind of way?
We have to acknowledge, however that Ms. Millenia Black as far as we know is a minority of high integrity, she has not to our understanding attack anybody here, at least not the two of you. So who is the elite elite here? Can it the both of you?
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2285
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 02:14 pm: |
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Ancient DUMBASS - HTF is Zane on any plantation when she runs her own publishing house and is probably helping other Black writers to get published? You need to get a grip on reality and stop coming with the lame rants about other people's mindset! |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 03:26 pm: |
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"Classification & Genre... Black/White Authours Treatement"
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MZURI:
You got to have some appreciable level of civility and rational, some savvy to interact intelligently with others who're so enlightened, otherwise the meanings of things will just pass you by.
If you don't want others to find out the degrees of your ignorance, then you're to just kindly keep mouth shut. (some people just don't mind letting it out, it matters nothing to them.) When one speaks, they leave no doubt of who they are, including me. The thing is, can we deal in good faith with the characterization of ourselves that we disclosed to others? So we do have the luxury of hiding ignorance by staying silent. Let people judge the muteness.
Some of the most silly, backward and ridiculous people are really those with wealth, FYI. You're very much mistaken if to think that all rich people are sage. Oh no. That because Zane aspire to owning her publishing company she must be astute in emotional discipline and psychological and philosophical delivery, no that's not true at all.
Let me give a little analysis of what you've now exposed about yourself to us. Well you don't know me, never have spoken to me before, right? Yet you came and call called me, "Ancient DUMBASS" over something that to reasonable minds just seems justifiable. Or does it?
If you really understood what the contextual "Plantation" concept meant and my application of it, then you'd never addressed me as such. Go and learn what it means then address me-- put you issue in the form of a question to resolve it equitably, right now you're not connecting with me, dear heart.
Let me tell you this, any race I'd be particularly a minority, being globally free, would dictate that I own a publishing business that accommodates all human authors, not just to serve my own race. That would not make me a resident who is subjected to the "white plantation mentality. One who still shy away from claming all of the civil rights and liberties that belong to all, would it?
So blacks folks who concentrate narrowly and caters to their own skin color or either a racist or still affected by residual effects from a slavery past.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2286
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 04:11 pm: |
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Ancient DUMBASS - Here's a NEWSFLASH - All AAs suffer from some level of the after-effects of slavery. That's what this thread is all about. Black author sues white publisher. Discriminatory treatment. Hellooooow!
WTF is this:
Let me tell you this, any race I'd be particularly a minority, being globally free, would dictate that I own a publishing business that accommodates all human authors, not just to serve my own race. That would not make me a resident who is subjected to the "white plantation mentality. One who still shy away from claming all of the civil rights and liberties that belong to all, would it?
You need to proofread your posts. Your sh!t doesn't even make sense. Run a spellcheck and practice constructing a friggin sentence before you try to tell me that I lack intelligence.
And if the point you're trying to make is that race doesn't matter, then why are you here on this forum? |
Urbanreviews
Newbie Poster
Username: Urbanreviews
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 04:32 pm: |
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Wow. What a heated debate! I know that MIllenia Black's publisher did contact us because on our book review site we had the original book cover for The Great Betrayal still posted in our book releases section. The original cover has a black couple on it with a bed below them while the new cover just has a bed. They even provided the jpeg of the new cover for us to post. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this lawsuit will be. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6876
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 05:38 pm: |
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Wonder how well Penguin did on the sales of the first book of Millenia's they published. Because if Penguin did buku business on that book, I can't see why they'd coerce her into going the high-profile kneegrow route. |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 06:11 pm: |
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Mzuri:
Let me try to say this right. I'd rather to be well disciplined, have good judgment and accurate distinction with poor grammar, than to be one who's raw, heedless, incoherent and intractable.
Good for you, I'll give you the point that I need to write better, and I'll take that home. So have you used that attack on me so has to distract from the essence of what I represented, about genre and classification, and about what contextual "Plantation" concept meant?
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Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 171
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 06:40 pm: |
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Ancient_reader, I read that Zane sold her publishing house to Simon and Shuster for $30 million but she still runs the company. According to some news items that anybody can look up, she has a five picture movie deal with Lionsgates Films and her first movie "Addicted" is co-produced by Suzanne DePasse. She's not a slave and neither am I. I own a business my own house, bought my mama a house, pay my taxes on time and I get a brnd neew car every year. I go on vacation outside the country every two summers. Millenia Black does not have support from black people because she never cared about us in the first place. Her goal was always white people and the people know it. That is why you are wasting your time here. Go drum up support from her white readers.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2288
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 06:52 pm: |
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I don't need any points, I do however require people who are attempting to communicate with me to be articulate. If you were as disciplined as you claim, you would refer to your pictionary a little more often and strive to enhance your vocabulary, instead of torturing people with incomprehensible gibberish.
And BTW, the term plantation mentality is complex and can mean a number of things. Who knows what you thought it meant or in what context you were trying to convey it. But I would venture to guess you are referring to Black "victims" who require massa's approval to cut a fart. Am I right?
I'll be standing by with bated breath whilst awaiting your reply.
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Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 06:29 am: |
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Enchanted:
You lack good reasoning. Millenia Black decided not to write black characters and that equates to not caring about black people in the first place?? Come on, Enchanted, even you can see the fault in that reasoning.
It's clear you're just offended that a black person would choose not to write about other blacks and get upset and sue when anybody would try to tell her she's not the right color to do it.
Babygirl said before, we have to fight the good fight for your rights because we have more to gain that we will ever have to lose.....true wisdom for all to see, even for Zane no matter how many millions she may have at present, it will never be as many as if she were a white person, for the reality is this: Zane is a big fish in a small pond on the plantation with mainly blacks to fatten herself from, enough to make New York Times List but not enough to stay there any time at all, for that can only happen off the little inferior US plantation.
Mzuri:
I hope you will find me articulate enough here. It makes no sense whatever that articulate people as yourself and Zane find it cool to bad mouth your peers with such nasty tongue. Two more points to note. When you clearly understood what I say about something challenging to your point of view, you bluntly ignore it. And you find no fault with the low-down mentally of rich publisher, Zane.
You have seen the nasty stuff she has written about Millenia Black, haven't you? Some hypocrite! How can intelligent people like you, so grammatically perfect allow for such bad minded uncalled for attacked on the innocent? Have you no taste for the right issues at hand... but for smut and mucous spewing out of a sour heart? That's what you black folks feed on and then hate others who have soared above that level of indecency? Beware of the seeds you sow.
Next time if the opportunity allows I'll explain the two "plantation mentality" that are out there. One affects blacks and the other affects whites.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2289
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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AR - Here you are on day three and all you've done is put words in other people's mouths. Stop reading between the nonexistent lines, I never even stated any "point of view." My original post questioned the lawsuit - has anyone seen it - could anyone provide details. And you misinterpreted my post to have some other hidden meaning, as if I was besmirching Ms. Black, making derogatory comments, and on and on. There is not one comment that you can attribute to me that is negative against MB. Again - the proverb that "Only a fool represents himself in a court of law" comes from within the legal profession. Can we please move on?
Here's another NEWSFLASH for you - I do not write fiction and therefore Ms. Black is not my professional peer. She's is not my competition and so therefore I couldn't care less about any of this. I was simply curious about the contents of the lawsuit and with the details of her beef. The reason for my curiosity is that I previously worked within the labor/management relations and EO realm. That's all.
As to your insults against Zane ONLY being on the NYT list for BRIEF periods, or your insinuation thereof - little darlin, you need to check yo'self before you wreck yo'self! Unless you're doing something on a grander scale, you have no room to belittle anyone else's accomplishments.
Just because people seemingly do not agree with you or see things from your point of view, that does not mean that they are unintelligent "plantation niggers." Some people may simply have the capacity to see the big picture more clearly than you. And perhaps not. That's the beauty of it - we don't all have to agree on things.
And WTF is "you black folks?" What's up with that? Are you frontin' or what??? |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 04:02 pm: |
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Mzuri:
You know what Mzuri? Lets bury hatchet right here. I believe that we've said enough on this issue. We all can do some soul searching, I think.
Judge for yourself if your heart is right towards others. If indeed you're treating other people of whatever ethnicities the way that you would have them treat you.
To be in good faith though, please examine your paragraph below. See if you've made a well intended representation or does it implies a latent besmirch of Ms. MB. Examine the fact that you have no critique for the nasty attack millionaire/publisher,Zane has launched on MB. Examine the fact that you're in a defensive posture trying to shade comments you've made. See your paragraph below:
"And you misinterpreted my post to have some other hidden meaning, as if I was besmirching Ms. Black, making derogatory comments, and on and on. There is not one comment that you can attribute to me that is negative against MB. Again - the proverb that "Only a fool represents himself in a court of law" comes from within the legal profession."
Beside that Mzuri, it's the month of December now. Enjoy your holidays.
Lets hope my grammar and spellings have improved a bit.
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Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 37
Registered: 11-2004
Rating:
Votes: 8 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 08:45 am: |
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Let me make one thing clear. Ancient Reader, whomever he or she might be, has alleged that I have "launched an attack" on Millenia Black. I stated that she sent her book to AA imprints and that as a publisher, I do not feel that her lawsuit has merit. I have not spoken to Millenia in ages and am certainly not jealous of her in any way. Let's keep it real. I do not have any beef with her and I hope that her new book does extremely well. It should because people will probably buy it out of curiosity. Controversy always sells.
If making the NY Times list, even for a week (I have been on there much longer than that), is seen as a bad thing, I will take that but I have had eight NY Times bestsellers so I doubt that is a fluke. He or she can downplay my writing all day long and it will only increase my book sales, not hurt them. Again, controversy sells so keep saying that I cannot write. I am sure the members of the NAACP took your opinion into account when they gave me the 2006 NAACP Award for Outstanding Fiction. The 450,000+ members of Black Expressions surely took your opinion into account when they voted for me to win book of the year for the past three years in a row also. Let me guess, I paid all 450,000+ of them off to vote for me. LOL
Back to Millenia, I will not be made out to be something that I am not. Anyone who knows me is well aware that I am more supportive of other AA authors than most. I will continue to be that way and I am publishing 15 additional first-time authors in 2007 as well as NY Times Bestselling author JL King and Essence Bestselling Authors Van Whitfield and Franklin White.
So while Ancient Reader continues to be the so-called expert on everything and makes himself or herself look stupid, all the rest of us will keep doing what we do.
Lastly a lot of editors and other publishers read this board and don't comment because they don't want to be put under attack. Many have emailed me and said that they were glad that I finally spoke up on the situation. So you are incorrect when you said that people are probably laughing at me. You need to look in the mirror and get amused yourself.
I am not "bad-mouthing" anyone. I am giving my opinion of the facts and I am quite sure that I know a lot more about this than you do. You were the first one to ask me for proof; then you said that Millenia didn't need to prove anything. You are sure a hypocrite and very ignorant. This is my last comment on this topic. People will see it like they see it and like the name of my next book, "It is what it is!" I have a meeting at Simon and Schuster in an hour so that I can continue to help other authors get their books on shelves. Ancient, have fun in the playpen and have a wonderful life.
Zane
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6885
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
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Zane,
Your informed, experienced insights into the book business are greatly appreciated. And far be it from me to presume myself capable of advising someone of your background on the finer points of communication.
But you MUST know your FREQUENT proclamations of your (albeit commendable) successes will mostly incite the rancor and envy of your detractors and haters.
Btw: I pretty much agree with everything you've asserted on THIS particular subject. If Millenia wanted to be marketed a certain way, she should have gotten it in WRITING or published her book her OWNDAYAMSELF. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6042
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 02:59 pm: |
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Gee, Zane, I thought you said you were taking a hiatus from this board inasmuch as you preferred a more "adult" venue. |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Hello, Zane:
Some folks just don't know what's inappropriate conduct. Neither do they have the slightest idea about their inner components that drive emotions and thoughts. Hence a lack of good distinction, judgment and discretion, they'll use profane language rather than speak sound wounds. Not that I think the latter is your style.
It's very difficult to maneuver in reciprocations with people of such deficiency. They have a tongue in their head alright but it's one that says any unregulated things that come to their minds.
I'm an expert on human thought and emotional operations. I do understand derivative of people's expressions, adept in sorting out intents, whether things are spoken in pretence or in reality.
Let's make this distinction. A person is a different entity from an object, and what you're is really your true identity. Therefore, possessing intelligence and virtues can't be achieved by just being wealthy, by putting on some expensive jewelry and clothing's. It has to be learnt and practiced.
I know of a federal appellate court judge out there in Florida, who walked into a Target department store and stole an electric gadget that cost four dollars and change.
Money just don't buy wisdom and stuff like that. One must learn the ways of good discipline in order to display virtuous attractiveness.
I'm proud of your achievements of course, and I do hope that you'll continue to increase as much wealth as possible.
What has troubled many of us your readers, is the manner in which you've chosen to make your comments about Millenia Black initially. The date of the WSJ was the designated time you've chosen to sound off your stuff that gave an impression something was wrong between you and MB.
No one accepts the broadcasting of your kindness done to MB in such an unprovoked way. Do you have an explanation for that? Please tell us.
It stands to reason though through my prisms, that even if Millenia Black had sent queries to one thousand AA imprints, none of that would contradicts her opposition to a publisher treating her differently because she's a person of color.
So Zane, tell me this. If you were to accept a white author's work and the protagonists are black people, would you have them change the Black folks to Caucasians first before you'd publish it?
Then here's the next point. Why couldn't you have contacted MB and tell her how you felt? Instead of coming out like someone lying in wait for an opportunity to wound their adversary. What were you trying to convey by telling the world that you've given MB, who just got featured in the WSJ, her first break?
I thought you did well for helping MB but to be very honest with you Z, I have to ask you. What all that has to do with MB suing a publisher over genre and classification, as it pertains to race?
She doesn't have that right? Shouldn't every human being have that right? You don't have to answer any of our questions but you have put your image on the line, something cash can't pay for.
Love you.
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Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 167
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 08:25 pm: |
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Ancient_reader wrote:
The date of the WSJ was the designated time you've chosen to sound off your stuff that gave an impression something was wrong between you and MB.
I am curious, when would have been a better time for Zane to have made a comment about the article? Before it was published? Or a month after it was published? Everyone has commented on the article AFTER it was published, so why should Zane have not?
Ancient_reader wrote:
So Zane, tell me this. If you were to accept a white author's work and the protagonists are black people, would you have them change the Black folks to Caucasians first before you'd publish it?
Based on what I've heard and read from some other authors, they have been asked to change things in their book, by their publishers, so why should the race of the characters be an exemption? What if a writer is asked to change the gender of a character, is that grounds for a lawsuit, with a charge of sexism?
Ancient_reader wrote:
Then here's the next point. Why couldn't you have contacted MB and tell her how you felt?
Why are you assuming that she hasn't? And, why can't/shouldn't she post her opinion on this board, just every other posters, including yourself? |
Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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To Cynique, my response is whatever.
To ABM, you are absolutely right. My track record speaks for itself.
To Jmho, if a person does not agree with the masses, their posts are not welcome. Everyone else can post a thousand posts but let someone be of a different opinion and it is like the sky has fallen.
To Ancient Reader, I have published two books by a white author--now deceased--whose characters were a mixture of all races. I have also published books with non-specified races and have one coming out under Strebor next year. No, I have never asked my authors to change the race of their characters. However, I have rejected manuscripts for other various reasons and refused to publish them until I deemed them acceptable. I cannot honestly say if I would ever make that demand regarding race because I have not come across a submission where I felt it was that big of an issue.
I agree that money does not mean intelligence but I do nothing motivated by money. I am challenge driven and will invest my last dime into making something work if I believe in it. If I were money-motivated, I would just write my own books and say forget everyone else. I could get up in the morning, write for 5-6 hours a day and then live la vida loca, instead of spending 12 hours a day at the office and field calls from 70 authors and shuffle through thousands of submissions. Publishing serves a much deeper purpose for me than writing. It is an opportunity to get diversity on the shelves and that is a beautiful thing.
I am treating the film industry the same exact way. I am entering it with not only self in mind but making sure that I can get as many AA books turned into films as possible.
I can guarantee you one thing. I am far from a dummy but everyone is entitled to their opinion of everyone else so feel free to call me that if it makes you feel better. There are many on this board who like to take pot shots at me. It must make them feel better about themselves as well. If they like it, I love it.
Now this is my final post for a while because I am on deadline for a book so everyone stay blessed and have a great holiday. This debate has been very informative and it reaffirms my motivation to always mind my own business-LOL
Zane |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6054
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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Famous last words. LOL But don't get on the defensive, Zane. You are in a class with Oprah. The higher you ascend, the more detractors you inspire. So just keep on "doing what you do" while laughing all the way to the bank. |
Ancient_reader
First Time Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 07:26 am: |
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My friend Zane:
Spare me just one minute that I may exclude Jmho for lack of substance.
Jmbo, there're very intelligent people on this board. They know representation that carries a system of logic. To overcome one thought by using another, requires distinct and relevant elements to actually do. In all sincerity I find your attempt to override the points that I've made, to be off track and ineffective with nothing posing a challenging to what I've posted. I'm open to be corrected if someone is able to explain and expose the weakness in my sayings
Now, back to my pal Ms. Zane.
Look, I like you Z. And I really believe that you're a nice person, that you even love to help other people. I also believe that you are telling us the truth about your publishing philosophy. I do mean that in the name of, in God we trust.
I feel so good about you beyond your faults, we all have them. Some may even have noticed the softness in my expression to you have late. Since it's my conviction that you're of appreciable value I want to reach out to you in a positive mode.
Out of that respect for you Z, the Ancient Reader is asking you not to confide in the foolish efforts made by Jmho, to justify your attack on MB the day of the WSJ.
Here's why you should not listen to Jmho. It's true that many people made comments about the WSJ article on December 6, 2006 or subsequently to it. But your input wasn't an objective comment compared to the rest. To the contrary, you were really attacking Millenia Black in a, adamant pursuable, vicious and venomous manner. You now seem to be ashamed of what you did. Because you've taken leave of hear and come back, as if attempting to do some damage control yet has failed to address the key thing everyone wants to be explained.
Oh, who would be talking about you today Z, were you just making comments with similar effects to that of many others, Ms. Z? No one. But mercy mercy, mercy me as the song goes. What's unresolved now Z, is the fact you're not able to respond to the nuclei question of why. Why did you slam and expose MB like that? As long as you refuse to tell your readers the reason/s for your action on that day, your rating will continue to ebb. I believe that some of your own supporters are beginning to feel embarrass for the beating you're experiencing on this issue.
Well confession is good for the soul, the right thing to do is confess to men and God will surely forgive your trespasses. The blind can see that you were wrong on that account, so try to restore your honor Z.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6063
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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Well, Ancient Reader, the subject in question isn't really one that I have a lot of conviction about one way or another, but I do commend you for your civility. There are 2 sides to every question and you and Tuliplover are entitled to voice your opinion. What transcends this debate is the sincerity you two exude. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 168
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
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Ancient_reader wrote:
Spare me just one minute that I may exclude Jmho for lack of substance.
And, you think what you've been typing is full substance?
Ancient_reader wrote:
Jmbo, there're very intelligent people on this board. They know representation that carries a system of logic. To overcome one thought by using another, requires distinct and relevant elements to actually do.
What in the world does this mean? You're typing words but there is no meaning. I asked a few questions to understand what exactly is your problem with what Zane has said on this board. You are calling her to task for voicing her opinion, and I just asked why? Just because her opinion differs from yours, then she shouldn't post? C'mon now.
And, what point are you trying to make? All you have done is asked her what's her problem with Millenia Black, as if they have some personal feud going on, then asked why did she post her comment on the same date the WSJ article was published, just like the rest of us and suggested she shouldn't have posted her opinoin, and then you keep saying she's attacking another author but haven't offered any proof of such.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Here's why you should not listen to Jmho. It's true that many people made comments about the WSJ article on December 6, 2006 or subsequently to it. But your input wasn't an objective comment compared to the rest.
And, your comments have been objective? So, again, now why shouldn't she have posted her opinion? And Zane wasn't the only person whose comments may not be seen as objective. So maybe it's you with the personal gripe against Zane. You came on here claiming Zane was attacking Millenia Blback, so then you, in turn, attacked Zane.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Oh, who would be talking about you today Z, were you just making comments with similar effects to that of many others, Ms. Z? No one.
Now, that's funny. But I know, you read bout Zane's comments on another site's blog, and then rushed over here typing a lot, but not making too much sense. You've made a lot of accusations, with no supporting proof -- and then have the gall to ask Zane for proof supporting her opinion. You talk like you know more than you do, and when asked questions, you come back with no answers but more rhetoric.
Ancient_reader wrote:
But mercy mercy, mercy me as the song goes. What's unresolved now Z, is the fact you're not able to respond to the nuclei question of why. Why did you slam and expose MB like that?
And, why are you attempting to slam Zane? And, why do you think she shouldn't have commented on the article? Are you not able "to respond to the nuclei question of why?"
I've been reading about this issue with Millenia Black for months now. And, it reads like she's trying to straddle the fence but isn't balancing herself very well.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2319
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 09:11 am: |
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JMHO - I believe that some of what AR has written is referred to as baffling them with BS. LOL. Although I may have seemed facetious when I told AR that they had written gibberish, I honestly couldn't understand what was being conveyed. I'm beginning to wonder if this could be an ESL (English is their second language) issue. |
Ancient_reader
Newbie Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 02:12 pm: |
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JMHO:
First, Mzuri's commented on my innocuous written flaws that needed some edits for better clarity, that is a well placed critique. It's my responsibility to write properly so that folks will have no head-aches understanding instantly what I'm saying. To that I give my apology.
Now JMHO, if I say anything that you don't understand I'll be more than willing to clarify it. The problem here is not about what you don't understand though, I've noticed. But clearly it's over the translucent. (Does it matter whether English is my 2nd language or not?) I believe that so long as you understand what I'm saying, then nothing shall be waived.
Shoveling aside the parts of objections that you've made, I'll react to my most equitable judgments that elevates the key and most relevant point/s should be resolved here.
Since you're so willing to embarrass Zane to much greater measure than she already has been, let me reiterate and accentuate the aberrational elements of Zane's conduct as it pertains the WSJ article and MB.
If I'm not mistaken the WSJ article centered it focus around why black authors are classified and marketed differently than whites. Correct?
MB made some comments as I recalled, none of which attacked Zane or anyone writing on this board. Now if you were in MB's shoes, having to see anyone coming out simultaneously on the very day of the WSJ article, and telling the world as it were:...
See!... "I'm the one who gave MB her first break. I don't know why she's out there without my permission fighting to wreck our AA niche that we've worked so damn hard to build". Who she thinks she is? Out there filing a lawsuit without first telling me the facts of her intentions before she does.
Would you in all honesty say that Zane was really making a comment about the substance of the WSJ article? Or was Zane out to put MB down for whatever reason? Yes, I want you to be candid and honest to me and the rest of your readers on this board. Please tell us why Ancient Reader and others are wrong in saying Zane attacked Millenia Black, rather than giving expected opines.
Anyone else who takes Zane's position on this issue is no less than a partner in crime with Zane. Zane's action towards MB, is similar to an occasion where your friend who gave you lunch yesterday when you had no money, a few months later told your entire neighborhood as they gathered together about it. Would you appreciate that?
Was Zane's comment about the WSJ article something that she intended to enhance a healthy debate of the relevant issues of Black and White authors, or was it a calculated vomit she purposefully spewed out that was designed to make MB sick? I'm close to believing that because Zane isn't able to give us the true explanation of why she did it, and because she has diminished her statute in readers eyes, you're here to fogged-up our ideas that Zane had a right to make her comments just like the rest of us did. Well none of the rest of us have claimed to helped out Millenia Black, only Zane does, and she did focus what she had to say around the break she had given to MB. So is that a comment like those others gave? Are we so foolish to accept that? Not me.
Come with something else to debilitate Zane. What you've given us so far we can see through it that it's worthless for a good explanation.
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Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 169
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 10 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 02:52 pm: |
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Ancient_reader wrote:
The problem here is not about what you don't understand though, I've noticed. But clearly it's over the translucent. (Does it matter whether English is my 2nd language or not?)
Maybe ...
Ancient_reader wrote:
Since you're so willing to embarrass Zane to much greater measure than she already has been,
I can no more be willing to embarrass Zane than you can be so willing to embarrass Zane.
Ancient_reader wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the WSJ article centered it focus around why black authors are classified and marketed differently than whites. Correct?
Well, kinda. But, also quoted in the WSJ article:
In October, Ms. Aldred (Nadine Aldred, who writes as Millenia Black) filed a lawsuit against her publisher, the American arm of Pearson PLC's Penguin Group, in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York. In the suit, she alleges that her editor asked her to change the characters in her newly published second novel, "The Great Betrayal," from white to black or race-neutral. In an attempt to lure black readers, the proposed cover art featured an African-American couple, the suit adds.
Ms. Aldred says she objected because she thought the suggestions would deprive her of the opportunity to attract white readers. In her filing, Ms. Aldred says the publisher eventually backed down -- the final cover features an unmade bed -- but she still sued, alleging racial discrimination.
"In commercial fiction I'm finding that there is a huge expectation that because you are black, you should know the climate and the boundaries, and adhere to them," says Ms. Aldred.
Penguin says it is contesting the allegations, saying in a written statement that "our commitment to writers from all backgrounds is evident in the quality and diversity of our (publishing) list." The company declines to make further comment.
And the first post in this thread is about her Millenia's suit again her publisher. It's entitled, "BLACK BLACK AUTHOR TAKES PENGUIN TO COURT" Now if you see all of this as being disconnected or unrelated, then try rereading the article and then the board again.
Ancient_reader wrote:
MB made some comments as I recalled, none of which attacked Zane or anyone writing on this board.
To my knowledge, Millenia Black hasn't posted on this board, especially under that moniker. I searched the archives and don't see her name as being a poster. Now, if she's posted under an another name, then I didn't know it. Are you suggesting that she has? And, if so, please provide the name and I'll search the archives.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Now if you were in MB's shoes, having to see anyone coming out simultaneously on the very day of the WSJ article, and telling the world as it were:... See!... "I'm the one who gave MB her first break. I don't know why she's out there without my permission fighting to wreck our AA niche that we've worked so damn hard to build". Who she thinks she is? Out there filing a lawsuit without first telling me the facts of her intentions before she does.
If that's how you read or interpreted Zane's initial post in this thread, then that's on you. As you suggested above, it might due to English being your second language.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Would you in all honesty say that Zane was really making a comment about the substance of the WSJ article? Or was Zane out to put MB down for whatever reason? Yes, I want you to be candid and honest to me and the rest of your readers on this board. Please tell us why Ancient Reader and others are wrong in saying Zane attacked Millenia Black, rather than giving expected opines.
I didn't read Zane's opinion as a put down against Millenia Black. Maybe this is about reading comprehension and interpretation. So, I can just agree do disagree with you.
But I also think it's a bit disingenuous to come and accuse someone of attacking another, all the while, attacking as well. So you think it's okay for you to attack Zane but Zane can't attack Millenia Black? Now you can come back and say, that I'm not attacking but know that Zane can make a similar statement and say that she wasn't attacking Millenia.
As I read it, she gave her opinion. And, as a publisher, she definitely knows more about how things work at a publisher company than I do. That's not to say that Millenia doesn't have a case and won't win her suit, but also doesn't totally discount what Zane has added to the discussion.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Anyone else who takes Zane's position on this issue is no less than a partner in crime with Zane.
What's up with all the dramatics? And selectiveness righteous? So if anyone agrees with Zane then they somehow are committing a crime.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Zane's action towards MB, is similar to an occasion where your friend who gave you lunch yesterday when you had no money, a few months later told your entire neighborhood as they gathered together about it. Would you appreciate that?
But was it true? Hell, I might be the one, telling my entire neighborhood how my friend gave me lunch when I didn't have any money. That might be how I would show my appreciation.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Was Zane's comment about the WSJ article something that she intended to enhance a healthy debate of the relevant issues of Black and White authors, or was it a calculated vomit she purposefully spewed out that was designed to make MB sick?
If you get your emotions out of the discussion then you might be able to at least accept that someone else's opinion differs from yours. To have a debate or discussion then you got listen to others. Which you aren't doing. You haven't addressed or discussed any points that Zane has raised. Only that you think Zane is attacking Millenia Black and on and on. People like to throw out and about recklessly the R word (racism) and then it's like they can't reasonably discuss (both side of) the issue.
Ancient_reader wrote:
I'm close to believing that because Zane isn't able to give us the true explanation of why she did it,
Why she did what? Assist Millenia? Post her opinion? And, so what if she never tells us, whatever you're talking about? Truth be told, I think no matter what she says, you're still be singing that same tune. And, how do you know whatever she says, will be the true explanation? Do you have a personal gripe against Zane? If so, then that would explain a lot.
Ancient_reader wrote:
and because she has diminished her statute in readers eyes, you're here to fogged-up our ideas that Zane had a right to make her comments just like the rest of us did. Well none of the rest of us have claimed to helped out Millenia Black, only Zane does, and she did focus what she had to say around the break she had given to MB.
She said more than that. But, if that's all you're focusing on, again, that's on you.
Ancient_reader wrote:
Come with something else to debilitate Zane. What you've given us so far we can see through it that it's worthless for a good explanation.
I can't give you an explanation for Zane wrote or certainly not for what you've written either. LOL
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Ancient_reader
Newbie Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 05:01 pm: |
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JHMO:
I'm convinced that I should leave this talk right here. To me it becomes incoherent, non-responsive, and unintelligible. In my opinion you're not serious JHMO.
I wanted for us to come to some reasonable consensus on this but it's far from happening.
Most importantly, in all sincerity I do like Ms. Zane as I've mentioned before, and have absolutely nothing personal against her. But what's fair for one goes for all.
At the end of the day Zane is the one that really looks bad and not MB, she purportedly have help out at a needed time. If anything she may have inadvertently made MB much more famous by those inappropriate comments.
JHMO, no hard feelings. That's the way life goes sometimes. May God Bless you all, best wishes on the holidays and good by. I've no more comments on this. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 170
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 20 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 01:49 am: |
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Ancient_reader wrote:
I'm convinced that I should leave this talk right here. To me it becomes incoherent, non-responsive, and unintelligible. In my opinion you're not serious JHMO.
You know, Ancient Reader, I am not in the least bit surprised by this response. But we finally agree on something. I feel the same way about you -- your responses have "incoherent, non-responisve and unintelligible" and you were never serious, yet I tried to engage you in a dialogue to understand why. You had no intentions of responding to any questions posed to you or to have a sincere exchange regarding this subject, yet you continually asked questions of others. You jumped into the discussion making accusations against others, in your zeal to 'defend' Millenia Black. Instead of dealing with others opinions, you've just rambled on with these nonsensical diatribes and personal jabs. We get these cyber drive-bys all the time on this board. And, true to form, you've done no different. |
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