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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 405
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 11:08 pm: | 
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The past Sunday I was watching Michael Eric Dyson (http://authors.aalbc.com/michaelericdyson.htm)interview Juan Williams (http://aalbc.com/authors/juan_williams.htm) about his book:
Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America--and What We Can Do About It
I never heard Williams speak at length. I don't watch Fox News (or any network news for that matter), but I've heard Dyson speak many times.
At a minimum Dyson will entertain (Cornel West does not Rap as well, and Tavis can not speak as fast as Dyson). I like to hear Dyson speak, though his style gets on my wife's nerves...
I was very impressed by Williams and actually a little disappointed in Dyson. Williams exposed a shallowness in Dyson I was sorry to see.
But more importantly, Williams said a lot of things that rang true and I was looking forward to reading Enough.
As luck would have it, a review of Enough crossed my desk for publication the following day. I read it immediately and was very surprised by the reviewers assessment (read the review here: http://reviews.aalbc.com/enough.htm).
The reviewers reaction was the complete opposite of what I expected based upon the interview I saw the previous day.
The reviewer even shot down a strong endosement by Donna Brazile (Brazile stands by her endorsement, by the way).
What do you all think about Juan Williams? If you read the book, what do you think of it?
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6025
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 07:10 am: |
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Troy,
I've not read Williams' "Enough". I did, however, see Dyson's interview of Williams. To degree, I agree Williams did expose Dyson. I was, however, bothered by Williams' idolatry of Bill Cosby.
What also bothered me about Williams was his attempting to rebut Dyson by resorting to asserting that Dyson is mired in perpetuating the "victim mentality". That's lazy conservative Republican trick used to attempt to delegitimize someone's argument WITHOUT having to confront the merits of another's positions (akin to how conservatives will assert that aggrieved Black foks are "playing the race card").
But the biggest problem I have with Williams' (and Cosby's) basic argument is I feel the problems of the Black family and community greatly transcend the misbehavior of the Black undereducated, poor underclass.
For example, take the near 80% rate of Black single-parenting. With numbers/percentages that high, it can't just be just Ray-Ray and Shenequa of the projects who are making/raising out-of-wedlock babies. Because they only represent about a third of us.
Also, how do you explain that affluent Black teens score lower on standardize exams than poorer White and Asian kids?
Mediocrity prevails amongst the WHOLE of African Americans. The failings of our underclass are but more apparent and acute example of such.
But it’s much easier to criticize and condemn the behavior of the worst of us than it is to tell the unpleasant truth to those of us who are alleged to be the best. |
Mordee
First Time Poster
Username: Mordee
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:33 am: |
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I have not read “Enough” but I have always considered Juan Williams a conservative. I guess its’ his bias (however so slight) on news stories I have heard him do on NPR.
I also agree with you guys. Cosby and Juan can complain about what our lower income brothers and sisters are not doing but we (middle and upper income blacks) contribute the problem. We don’t live in their community. We can’t be an influence (example) in the schools nor are we providing leadership such as coaching little league or boy scouts in those communities. And it’s true, I see too many young people in my middle to upper middle income neighborhoods that express the same distain for education and have the same getover attitude that Cosby complained about.
One more comment concerning the review. After reading Mr. Williams brief opinion on the issue of reparations. He takes the same shortsighted view that conservatives always do. All black folks want is a check to buy more Nikes. My study of reparations has been one of the most positive influences on my life. The study of our history and the understanding of the impact and contribution we have had on the creation of what is now the greatest economic and military power in the world instilled a true since of pride in me. What we have survived is truly amazing. With all our self imposed problems today, (our lack of trust of each other, failure to support each other economically, and the anti -education philosophy of our young people;
I believe many of these problems are a manifestation of our own self hate. The reparations movement is not a “we are the victim movement”. It is a study of a people who have survived one of the most horrific atrocities man has committed to his fellow man; it instills a pride and appreciation of what we have been through and through introspection can provide incite to where we need to go from here.
I don’t know if this will make sense to any one but me but I used to say “ If every black person in American really understood why reparations is so important then we wouldn’t need reparations.”
Hello, I been a long time visitor to the board I finally decided to throw my two cents in.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4918
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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Conservatives had the cunning to counter-attack Liberals by injecting truth laden common-sense into the race debate. As a result Liberals, in order to mount a counter offense, have to excuse and dismiss everything that is misguided about the black struggle. But excuses don't solve problems; they just put them on hold. Blaming everything on The System doesn't accomplish anything because all of the blacks who are upwardly mobile within the confines of The System have proven that there are ways to circumvent barriers. Middle-class blacks have earned the right to chide members of the underclass, mostly because there are a few simple rules that the underclass could follow to improve their lot. But they prefer to depend on having their victimization reinforced by social agencies and political opportunists. These "do-gooders", who are spawned by the "Poverty Industry", earn their living and justifiy their positions by enabling poor blacks to perpetuate the things that hamper their progress and create a need for aid and a forum for protest. There are many areas where I strongly disagree with the conservative stance, but the truth rises above partisanship. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6042
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 12:08 pm: |
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Cynique,
If you killed off EVERY underclass Black person in the United States and and their complementary "Poverty Industry & Pimps" you'd STILL have Black people who were grossly BEHIND almost everyone else in terms of wealth, education, health, etc.
Take wealth, for example. We own only 1 2/3% of the nations wealth. Now, for sake of an argument, let's say that a full third of us, the underclass, contributes nothing to that. If you wholly REMOVE the Ray-Ray and Shenequa class from the equation, you STILL have non-Black having over FIVE TIMES the per capita wealth that Blacks have.
My point is IF our best/brightest - headed by the Cosbys - were truly as successful as they want to think they are, that disparity would not be NEARLY as big as it is.
And we all know that in America you can't effect and maintain ANY kind of social, political and culture criteria if you're broke. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6043
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 12:19 pm: |
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Mordee,
Welcome.  .
I don't know or much care whether Williams is a cardcarrying member of the GOP. Honestly, thus far, I'm more inclined to vote for Republican Sen. John McCain than I am anyone whom the Dems appear poised to proffer in 2008.
All I require is an earnest, full and fair venting of the issue.
I'm ambivalent about the reparations issue. It does concern me that Black foks might become so bogged down in it that we miss addressing the enormity of the here/now.
However, I think there would be little-2-no energy and focus upon reparations IF America had NOT waited so long AFTER Emancipation to really even acknowledge and enforce full, rightful citizenship of Blacks.
I mean, hell, there are people who are still ALIVE who've seen their kin/friends hanging by the neck from Magnolia trees. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4919
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 02:24 pm: |
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You assume that what you describe is unique to blacks, ABM. Real white wealth and power is concentrated among a select segment. There are rich millionaires all over the place and they come in all colors but their financial gain is the result of individual efforts and does not necessary represent wide spread power. Millionaires are big consumers and the money they've accumlated goes toward maintaining their life styles and toward the maintenance of the enterprise that is the source of their income. I never got the idea that Bill Cosby thought he was powerful. He seemed to be speaking from the position of a helpless citizen who wanted to prod his brethern into doing better. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6053
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 02:44 pm: |
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Cynique,
Of course wealth is wholly concentrated amongst few. My point is they're almost exclusively NON-BLACK.
So when you start asserting standards of behavior, ethics, morality and such, you must ask who CAN create and enforce such?
If you're impotent, I'm impotent and Cosby's impotent, how the heck can any real change amongst Black foks occur...ESPECIALLY when many of us so-called 'good' Black foks ain't quite as morally/culturally upright as we want to let on? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4921
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 03:09 pm: |
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I don't think Cosby or anybody else who shares his views is really dictating how people should behave. They are simply suggesting that people exercise better choices. The black savior has yet to be born. All any well-meaning person who has risen above poverty can do is to remind that if "others can do it, you can too." |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1483
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 06:56 pm: |
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but Cosby and his elk confused the civil rights movement w/ desegregation...and if u read the history, it also included issues pertaining to economic and political power, neither of which these men address, it seems to me. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4924
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 07:22 pm: |
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Well, the civil rights movmement was, indeed, about desegregation, proceeding on the idea that abolishing the separate but equal doctrine would level the playing field and blacks would benefit. Of course this didn't pan out. Blacks have gained some economic and political leverage but real power does elude them. But "old school" Bill Cosby is operating within his comfort zone and he undoubtedly feels that blacks should get "ready" so that when opportunities arise, they will be qualified to take advantage of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Juan Williams avoided the pit fall of being redundant about the time-worn economics and political argument issue because maybe it occurs to him that the white power structure does not share its power; it just pacifies those who play the capitalistic game by giving them a tiny sliver of the pie. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1485
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 07:39 pm: |
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I agree with your comments about capitalism. My point is that desegregation was only one component of the civil rights movement. Juan Williams feels, it seems, that since he produced Eyes On The Prize, he has some legitimacy. And he does among those who equate the movement with access to public accomodations and franchisement.
According to this logic, blacks are suppose to uplift themselves now that they have equal access.
It sounds as if Cosby's and Williams's bourgeois sensibilities have been offended by poor black people. This victim position is ridiculous.
After school, after you lose the fight...the fact that you caught a beatdown dont mean you didn't fight back! You are a loser not a victim....when shit is stacked in someone else's favor, of course, they're gonna win regardless of our laudable efforts.... |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2571
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:23 pm: |
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Invertebrates and lapdogs like Juan Williams (consider what kind of cockroach a black person would have to be to be welcome at Fox News) should be afraid to fall asleep at night for fear their children and wives will slit their throats in their sleep. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6069
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:34 pm: |
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Chris,
Uhhh....Nice. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4926
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 01:54 pm: |
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"Nice" my ass. What chrishayden posted is nothing but a shallow, petulant, stupid outburst of somebody who resorts to insult when he can't come up with an intelligent, viable response to anybody who rains on his little parade and dampens his myopic view of reality. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 03:05 pm: |
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Cynique:
I see I still bring out the best in you.
It's what I do. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6090
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 03:20 pm: |
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Cynique: ""Nice" my ass."
Says you... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4929
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 04:23 pm: |
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My ass is "nice", - so nice that I'll refrain from telling the rabid chrishayden to kiss it. |
Snakegirl
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 99
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 04:31 pm: |
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Am I the only person who feels that desegregation destroyed and scattered the massive Black Power block that existed in this country pre-1975?
In other words, as Zora Neale Hurston and Toni Morrison predicted---it shattered the black community and drained it.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4932
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 04:38 pm: |
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Desegregation never really came into fruition. White people found ways to circumvent it, and blacks finally got wise and moved on, realizing that they didn't need to integrate with white folks in order to feel validated. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 6106
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 05:39 pm: |
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Snake,
I think desegregation did enormous damage to us. But I think what has, by FAR, done MORE damage to us has been Black men and women having but NOT marrying and raising children together.
If the core social unit - the FAMILY - is in ruins, what the hell kinda chance you've got elsewhere in this country and world?
Cynique,
I think it depends on how you define desegregation. But I think the fact that Black foks we own so LITTLE what consume means that we're economically desegregated. And in all of the worst of ways. |
Snakegirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 101
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 06:00 pm: |
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ABM, you're totally right...and that's actually what I meant.
The "common dream" that so impassioned Black men and Women PRE-1975 (which made them put up with each other, as they were "building" something), seems to have dissipated after they were free to serve a LARGER community---and abandon their traditional posts.
The black church fell apart.
BLACK-OWNED businesses fell into the sea. (There are LESS now than there were in 1943---though the new businesses are MUCH BIGGER).
Afro Picks and "Black Power" Salutes were suddenly laughed at.
The children's new favorite soul singers were suddenly White Dominant Images imitating black culture---George Michael, New Kids on the Block, Mariah Carey, Christina Aguilerra.
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