| Author | Message | ||
     Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 101 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
By now most of you know that I believe that the purveyors of hip hop lit are brilliant marketers that we can all learn a lot from. You also know that while I am impressed with the storytelling skills of many, I am appalled by the lack of respect for the craft by some. Simple spelling mistakes, especially where homonyms such as “there” and “their” are concerned, along with punctuation, grammar and syntax errors are unconscionable when Microsoft Word can clean up most of that stuff with the push of a button. Which brings me to my point. I will be at the Harlem Book Fair this weekend. I'm reading on the main stage at 12:15 and signing at the Holtzbrinck Publishers booth at 1. The big event, however, is my participation in a panel discussion: "Urban Fiction: Creative License or Stuck on Stupid?" The panel takes place from 3:45pm-5:00pm on Saturday at Harlem Hospital. But the way I figure it, why wait for the panel? We can get it in right now ... So what do you think? Is urban fiction creative writing or stuck on stupid? | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 475 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, Solomon: Man, you don't know how I wish I could be in Harlem this weekend! The panel discussion that you will be participating in would have been the one I would have attended. Since I can't be there I can only say that Urban fiction is more Stuck on STUPID. There is nothing creative about wallowing in ignorance. It's triflin'. There is nothing creative about being damn near illiteratre and being PROUD OF IT! I went through this discussion a couple of years ago at the BEA in Chicago. One of A_womon's cousin *LOL* said that his grammatically incorrect writing was his "voice". Now I knew right then that I was looking at a stark tarnated fool! Listen, when Hughes, Hurston, Wright, and others broke with literary standards when writing dialogue (writing how people really sound when talking in everyday life) they were criticised for it. The major difference being these authors knew the rule in order to BREAK the rule. I don't anyone with a lick of sense in their head can say the same for some of today's hip hop writers. There is no knowledge or mastery of the language present in their writing. If there was, this skill would emulate from their writing the same as the smell of fried chicken hitting you in the face when you walk into the house. You did need to go, look in the skillet, and flip a couple of pieces around in the grease to tell that chicken is being fried. So, even though the words "aint", today's slang is pepperer throughout the book, the author's knowledge of the language would show in the descriptions, the structure of the story, even the dialogue of the characters. My vote is for the stuck on stupid, because a person who truly value the word, or his words, will not go out of his way NOT to know the right way. That's straight low-rent! | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 214 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, I don't buy it when authors say they purposely wrote books with grammar errors. As far as being stuck on stupid, I think I would describe the publisher this way instead of the author. If a publisher is not wise enough or too cheap to hire a good editor, it's not entirely the author's fault (unless the author IS the publisher too). If readers want to buy books with poorly-written plots and just all around bad writing, then they are the ones stuck on stupid for falling for it and excusing the errors (if they recognize them). I have no problem with Ebonics in the dialogue but if it's in the narration, then we have a problem. Ooh and don't get me started on those homonyms. "your welcome," "there over here," "she was part of it to,". Yup, it's annoying all right. I just wish people would learn how to spell definitely without an A. | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 102 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Emanuel - LOL ... I think you hit the nail on the head. To say that you purposely wrote dialogue with grammatical errors is one thing. To say that you purposely wrote narrative (unless you're using a first person narrator) with grammatical errors is just a lie. I can remember fighting the editors at Random House over a passage in Pipe Dream. The copy editor (at large houses several editors go through the work) kept changing Leroy's line to Pookie from "Lay down in the street!" to "Lie down in the street!" Although the latter was grammatically correct, the former was correct in terms of black vernacular. I won that battle. Thumper is right on, too. Many authors break the rules without knowing what the rules are. The result is mistake-ridden work that diminishes the overall value of stories that are, in many cases, compelling. The scary thing for me, as a creative writing teacher at Temple University's College of Liberal Arts, is that some of my students have tried to emulate some of that writing in the work they hand in to me. Because one of the exercises that I make my students engage in is reading aloud, the results are often embarrassing -- for them and for me. But those embarrassingly graphic passages point to the bigger issue: Our young folks are coming up believing that explicit sex, excessive profanity, and a total disregard for punctuation is good writing. And they're bringing it into the classroom. How do you think that bodes for them as they try to compete in an increasingly global and well-educated, society? | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1390 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
let me play devil's advocate... Should we say that writing novels is a elitist endeavor? Meant only for those who know not to use who when they mean whom, cite when they mean site? Could we not lose something of quality when we limit novels to the educated? The literate? Now, I am certainly not speaking of these hip hop writers who's fiction have no contribution to the improvement of life! These writers who tell interesting stories of the materialism and lust, but have very little to teach us about ourselves...who have very little lessons in their narratives! But aren't there those books that are full of grammatical errors, poor word choice, but the story is well put together and the lyric of the words...the vitality of the words signify that fried chicken that Thumper speaks of. Is this not what we hear when we listen to Sojouner Truth's 1851 Speech at the Women's Right Convention in Akron, Ohio? When Truth asks "Aint I A Woman?" do we not hear both illiteracy and triuth, intellect, and vigor...this too can be said about Fannie Lou Hamer, could it not? While it is probable that Hip Hop fic is stuck on stupid...I think we should consider that it is not just a matter of their illiteracy, it is a matter of telling a meaningful story! | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1362 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thumper, Thumper Thumper, An illiterate person could NEVER be even a distant cousin of mine, you see I am about as far from illiteracy as one can get. But check it, I've NEVER defended illiteracy in writing. The type of errors that Emanuel point out have more than irked me for a very long time. HOWEVER, there is a difference as SJ and Yukio point out, in using the language of the streets in prose, and in breaking the fine rules of spelling and grammer throughout your entire book! I certainly make no apologies for using profanity and sex in my writing. If that ain't yo' cupa tea, then by all means, DON'T drink it. But don't hate on those who enjoy endulging in a good STRONG drink on the regular, OK? You can't possibly believe that kids are going around saying things like "Oh Josh, dear boy, if you don't step back a few paces,I'm going to have to take you out back and give your backside the worst trouncing that you've had in a millinium" Now how STUPID would a sentence like that be when your character is supposed to be a young black male from the inner city... shoot, forget inner city-- a young black man is going to be considered a punk if he speaks that way ANYwhere! Isn't this character more likely to say "If you don't get the f**k out my face Imma KICK yo'azz?" Tell me, do you people want a sanitized version of real life or do you want the real thing?????? | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 215 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
It's funny you should say that Yukio because I felt a bit snobbish when I posted that. However, rules of grammar are rules of grammar. As a reader and reviewer, I can be forgiving up to a certain point but I know editors and critics in the mainstream will not be. I found errors in my own book, so I know what's it like. Some shit I just recently learned. For instance, I've been saying every since instead of ever since until 2002 'cause I just didn't know any better. The word "past" as in driving past the store would always trip me up too. I had to look that one up in 3 different dictionaries because it just didn't look right. I believe I mistakenly used pass in my current novel. The writing world can be very snobbish, which is why I think more black people have been forgiving with street fiction. Others just don't know any better. I guess we can always strive for perfection though. A little help from a professional editor should always be welcome. | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 476 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, A_womon: I was only kidding with the cousin comment. I do that to everybody. However, I do agree with you when you wrote ""Oh Josh, dear boy, if you don't step back a few paces,I'm going to have to take you out back and give your backside the worst trouncing that you've had in a millinium" Now how STUPID would a sentence like that be when your character is supposed to be a young black male from the inner city... shoot, forget inner city-- a young black man is going to be considered a punk if he speaks that way ANYwhere!" Absolutely! It would be totally false and unbelievable. And I do not see where anyone was putting down writers, at least not in this thread, about the use of profanity or sex. That's not the issue. The issue is the ability to write a story, albeit novel, novella, short story, novel, etc. Just because a person can go through the mechanics of writing a book and know that the writing is shoddy and blantanly don't care that his writing SUCKS, doesn't mean that that person gets a freaking prize or should be entitled to my money. Really, don't pee on my leg and tell me its rain. Don't say that I don't know how to write, so here's my book read it. That's like saying I don't have the legal right to drive, but I'm going to drive over and under the speed limit, flip on my right turn signal when I'm turning left, I stop at green lights, and I cause accidents all over the place, but hey I got from point A to point B! What do I need a driver license for, I can start my car with a key without one! Just because you can, does not mean that you should. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1393 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Emanuel: The meat of my post had less to do with literacy and more to do with the question: If we limit ourselves to literate and standard english users, could we possibly miss those voices that have something significant to say like Truth and Hamer? I am also suggesting that the ability to use perfectly rendered standard english does not make a good story teller, a meaning story... | ||
| Mzuri "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mzuri Post Number: 972 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
I think it's a question of how much is too much. You can pick up almost any book and find a typographical error - it is rare to find a perfectly written book. And if you have multiple editors, you will end up with multiple opinions of what is correct. There's a major difference between a couple of typos and a book that's poorly written as you describe. Do people stop reading a book because it contains too many grammatical and spelling errors? And if you're reading a book, do things like the incorrect usage of a homonym cause you to be taken aback, or do you read on? Would the average person even care? Do they return the books and request refunds? | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1397 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
hmmmm...but is a book not stuck on stupid just because it is well written? There is something that we need to address: When is a story told well? Is the writer telling a story that is so familiar, so cliche that it ends suddenly on page five and the book is 350 pages in length? ...LOL! With this in mind, are the urban fiction writers good story tellers? And who determines this...literary people who could pick a part an employment before it is completed or the average jane or joe who cans read teh same plot by five differnet authors and still be surprised about the ending? This then is about the reader, so I ask again, though in a different way, are we saying that novels should only be written for the socalled elite or literate? | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1363 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Oh my, Im gonna pass out! Thumper, did you say you agree with me?  Yes, as you said on another thread, maybe a lot of street fiction/hip hop writers should delay gratification a bit when it comes to seeing their book bound and on a shelf and save up the money for a good editor. Or maybe even try shopping their book around to publishers or agents. They will tell them in a heartbeat what is wrong with their book. Any feedback that they get in a rejection letter should be considered positive. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 1160 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Do people stop reading a book because it contains too many grammatical and spelling errors? And if you're reading a book, do things like the incorrect usage of a homonym cause you to be taken aback, or do you read on? Would the average person even care? Do they return the books and request refunds? Well, I won't speak to whether or not I am the "average" person. (LOL) But yes, these types of errors do bother me when reading books. They are a HUGE distraction--I do not care how compelling the story is. They make me feel that an author doesn't give a sh** about me as a reader. For a while I was into purchasing pre-publication and review copies of books. (I do not know if this is the correct name for these. But I do want to note that I was buying them legally!) I stopped after a while because the typos, etc were too distracting. But it is not just typos, grammatical and other errors that I can't stand. I have at two different points in my life stopped reading favorite authors and favorite series by these authors when these folks appeared to get too big for their britches. In one case it seemed like the author just stopped caring and was churning out books to meet demand. In another case it seemed like the author was going on and on and on all sorts of tangents, and either no editor would challenge this person, or they did but the author was too big to reign in. In both cases these were huge best selling authors from major publishing houses. | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 103 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
I did the panel on Saturday at the Harlem Book Fair. It was myself, Queen Pen, Danielle Santiago, and Omar Tyree ... I spoke my piece. Troy was there ... I thought me and my Philly peeps were gonna have to fight our way out of there. ... more on this later. | ||
| Mzuri "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mzuri Post Number: 1028 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
In one case it seemed like the author just stopped caring and was churning out books to meet demand. In another case it seemed like the author was going on and on and on all sorts of tangents, and either no editor would challenge this person, or they did but the author was too big to reign in. Names PLEASE!!! LOL. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 1165 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I'll give you one: Ann Rice. | ||
| Mzuri "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mzuri Post Number: 1029 Registered: 01-2006 Rating: N/A |
Thanks! | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 104 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
The panel at the Harlem Book Fair was interesting. The thing that I think bothered me the most was that everyone seemed to be content to pass the buck concerning responsibility for the grammatically incorrect, violence-and-sex-glorifying, poorly edited content of some ghetto fiction. Readers think its the authors' fault. Authors think it's the parents' fault. Teachers think no one should challenge their students to learn how to write because, apparently, they don't have spell check on some of the computers in Harlem. By the way, isn't that what teachers are there for ... to correct the kids even if the computers don't? But I digress. As I said at the panel, we are responsible for what we write. If we choose to put out books that glorify the culture that is tearing apart the very fabric of many black communities, then we have to take our share of the responsibility for perpetuating that culture. Kids' parents aren't sitting there when we write our books, the white man isn't sitting there when we write our books, teachers aren't sitting there when we write our books, corporate America isn't sitting there when we write our books. So they are NOT to blame. We are responsible for what we do. Readers are responsible for what they do. And although I truly do not care what other people write or buy, it really rankles me that we as a people seem perfectly content to blame everyone else for everything that affects us. At what point do we stand up like men and women and say, "Yes, I did that, and I'm willing to own every single consequence resulting from it?" | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1410 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
interesting... So everyone means? The audience? your co-panelists? I agree with you to some degree. Writers are responsible for what they write. BUt...and you knew it was coming, I think that we as a culture need to grab up our kids and others as well as misguided adults and show them a better way. So that it is not only a question of personal responsibility, but we having responsible and dignified parents, grandparents, teenagers who can teach our youth or their cohorts a different way. Values are taught. And what you are really talking about, in my opinion, is the value of standard english, literacy, and finally personal responsibility. The materialism and low standards that people seem to embrace is the product of our culture--not just individuals--embracing this [of course, I am not saying at all that all of us are materialist nor that our culture is solely materialists...but it is there and it aint pretty]. | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 105 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Everyone is too broad a word. Let's try ummmm .... many. And by many I mean many ... of everyone. Seriously, though, I think that charity, like everything else (and by everything I mean everything) begins at home. I think that we must first instruct our own children before we begin to instruct other people's. I think we have to monitor our own willingness to embrace materialism before we examine others. In short, I think we have to get ourselves at least halfway right before we go out trying to fix the world. My books are not perfect. My standards are not perfect. My life is not, and has never been, perfect. But I can honestly say that I am trying to leave behind a legacy that will have some redeeming social value -- that will honestly make a difference in peoples' lives. Am I asking everyone else to do that? I don't know that that's a realistic expectation. But what I am trying to do is model that before others so that if they choose to emulate that, then good for them, and good for the other people they'll influence by doing so. I'm not saying that we have to write standard English. In fact, as black authors, I think we should honor the rich tradition of black vernacular in our writing. But we should have enough respect for ourselves, for our readers, and for the generation of black writers coming up behind us, to try to do quality work. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1411 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
We agree then. My point is that better values need to be taught, and of course one must strive for dignified values herself before she can teach them to anyone else. I say that we need to write in standard english if the story requires it. But we must know standard english regardless. To me part of the purpose of reading is for enjoyment and the other education. And whether we want to believe it or not, we need to know standard english whether we want to be rappers, urban fiction writers, doctors, or a salesperson in walmart. It is fundamental, so I hear you and agree with you SJ. It is unfortunate that materialism has reared its ugly head...for all his faults, cornel west long ago said that the commodification of black culture is hurting us...and while I don't agree with all of his work, West's critique of the pricing of black intelligence, values, and culture was...right on the money! LOL! | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 216 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Are we forgetting something here? What about the people who read urban lit strictly for escapism? Are they any different from people who watch movies that glorify violence, drug usage or sex? At the Harlem Book Fair, Cathy Hughes (TV One owner) said she truly enjoyed "The Coldest Winter Ever." Does that mean she glorifies drug usage, violence and teen sex? Are we saying urban lit is bad because it usually contains poorly used English? Or are we discussing the moral implications of the lit? I think they are 2 different subjects. | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 217 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
BTW, materialism is an AMERICAN value that perpetuates itself in the African-American community. Like Cornel West, bell hooks discusses this extensively in her books too. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5263 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Emanuel, At one point do we become so caught up in styling that NOTHING we do is worth a dayam or makes ANY sense? | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1415 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Emanuel: I am not sure if they are any different. I haven't read "The Coldest Winter Ever," but I am told and have heard that the story is good and that there is a lesson to be learned... Sista Soljah [sp]is an advocate of education and literacy. The fact of the matter is, Richard Wright wrote about sex, drugs, and violence, but the book was not about these...Claude McKay did so too and Hurston, but these writings use this life as the background on which they painted a picture of black humanity...not black materialism and selfishness Are we saying urban lit is bad because it usually contains poorly used English? Or are we discussing the moral implications of the lit? I think they are 2 different subjects. When I speak of values...I am, so to speak, speaking of morals. But not in the sense of what is morally right or wrong. SJ says "As I said at the panel, we are responsible for what we write. If we choose to put out books that glorify the culture that is tearing apart the very fabric of many black communities, then we have to take our share of the responsibility for perpetuating that culture." This is a bit ambiguous. I think he is speaking of street or hip hop culture, but I do not know. My point is less about the specifics and more about his general point, which is, as I read it, about values in a very general sense, whether they are about morals or the value of literacy. And my point that what ever they be, values are taught. If you read to your children and making read fun at an early age they will read for a life time. If you read yourself...they will pick it up just because they see you doing it and they want to be like you... | ||
| Dakota Regular Poster Username: Dakota Post Number: 31 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
I have to admit, I'm torn on the whole urban fiction v. literary fiction thing. I consider my book as urban fiction and I believe it's good. But I also know that writing an urban fiction book carries some baggage, some good, some bad. I'll just have to deal with it because I believe in my writing...now I just have to get readers to believe in it too. I don't believe all urban fiction is bad, just as I'm sure we can all agree that not all literary fiction is good. Like all art, writing is open to subjective criticism. Soloman Jones said, "we are responsible for what we write. If we choose to put out books that glorify the culture that is tearing apart the very fabric of many black communities, then we have to take our share of the responsibility for perpetuating that culture." What ever happened to plain entertainment? That's why I write...to entertain my readers. I write books I want to read. I think many black writers have lost sight of the fact that black readers want to be entertained just like white readers do. I've seen things in books written by white authors such as Stephen King, Michael Connolly, John Saul, Dean Koontz, Tess Gerritsen, etc, that is much worse (in terms of graphics, not grammar), than anything I've seen in black fiction. But I still read them because I like the thrills and chills I get from reading those authors. I read tons of King and Koontz when I was little, and guess what, I didn't turn into a crazed serial killer. I think there's room for everyone at the table. I also think that the quality of black fiction will rise on all levels as new writers come on board. When our readers see more quality, that is marketed to them properly, then they will demand more quality. | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 106 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio - The culture that is destroying our communities has little to do with tradional black values and more to do with the mainstream. The culture of which I speak is pop culture -- the culture that says that anything one does is okay as long as it looks good, feels good, and/or sounds good. Dakota - I write my books to entertain, too. And based on the responses of readers, I think I succeed most of the time. I think the difference between Stephen King and the books we're discussing is this. Stephen King's books are pure fantasy. Dean R. Koontz's books are made up in his head. But many of the books I'm referring to are marketed as stories based on true experiences. They glorify drug dealing, criminal activity, and promiscuousness. I'll give you an example. After I did my reading at the Harlem Book Fair, I had a publisher come up to me and ask me to read another author's work for him. "Where's the author?" I asked. The guy said the author is in prison. So to compare Stephen King to a new crop of people who are glorifying the very things that got them into prison in the first place is like comparing apples and oranges. And then there's the other reality -- the reality that will not change anytime soon. People of other ethnicities can write about, benefit from, even pimp the violence that affects out communities. At the end of the day, they can take off the big Tshirts and hoodies and go back to being whoever they are. At the end of the day, we still have to be black. And whether we engage in those negative behaviors or not, we continue to be painted with the same broad brush. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 2488 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Solomonjones: That is so much horseshit. Look at what you are saying. It is okay for white people to read horrible tales of violence and murder but it be hurtin a po nigras head and makin him do bad stuff. I wonder what the kids in Columbine were reaing? Think they were reading hip hop lit? How about Adolph Hitler? Think he was doin' it? Last I heard all George Bush reads is the Bible. What made him invade Iraq? How about Osama? I bet he reads nothing but the Koran. Some of us learn a couple of four letter words and scribble something and we start feeling so superior to everybody else. You know what the poor beknighted black people need. Do you write in your books how they can get them some MONEY? | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1424 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Solomon Jones: I will agree with Chris Hayden but with less venom, of course. Your characterization is an exaggeration...what is destroying our communities is less about pop. culture and more about political economy and racism... Popular culture is often an exaggerated reflection of what goes on in society. If that is the case, you can not place the blame on popular culture...or what people read[this doesn't mean that there aren't cases where something someone read motivated them to do something, of course.] It does, however, demonstrate that what if often viewed in popular culture is already and has always gone on in society in the very first place. How can you claim that it has nothing to do with traditional black values when, to some degree, it is these very values that are needed to counterbalance and outweigh the mainstream values that you have criticized. In the past and the present, there are kids who watch hip hop and participate in popular culture and are good students and contribute to the community. citizens. In fact this popular culture that you criticized is nothing new, so the question is how have our communities gotten sucked into embracing this form of materialism? What is destroying our communities is poverty, lack of resources, poor parenting, etc....blues music, r&b, and all of these other black art forms all had a street side to them...this is is not new, it is just heightened. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5340 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I don't argue hip-hop/street literature is the first Sign of the Apocalypse, per se. But how do you know whether life has become art and/or art has become life? I believe BOTH occur. I believe there IS a point where we begin to become what we consume of our minds as our bodies become the food we ingest. PS: I DO think the Columbine Shootings are a natural consequence of our gleefully watching Arnold Schwarzenegger kills 100's of people in a given movie. | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 107 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Chrishayden - You wrote: "Do you write in your books how they can get them some MONEY?" I don't know whether to call you Chrishayden or Chris hatin'. But I digress ... I don't write about helping black folks get money. I work to help them get money. For six years I ran an event at my church that brought together employers, healthcare providers, social service agencies, corporate and media sponsors so that I could not only help black folks get money. I helped our folks get J-O-B-S, healthcare services, social services and even a little spiritual growth. I won't list all the other stuff I do for our folks, but trust me, it ain't got nothin' to do with no books. It's one thing to say what needs to be done in our community. It's quite another thing to go out and do it. And who knows, between calling other people's opinions "horseshit", you may actually be going out and doing something. I hope that's the case. But even if that's not the case, you missed the entire point of my post. What I said was, you can't compare fantasy stories about totally made up horrors, such as Stephen King's, to works that are written about people who are actual murderers, drug dealers and the like. Because those stories glorify the criminal activity is actually going on in our communities. Stephen King's work does not. If Stephen King, or Dean R. Koontz, or anyone else was actually writing about the planning and execution of Columbine-type massacres, then they would be accountable for perpetuating those atrocities in the same way that ghetto fiction writers are accountable for perpetuating the violence that is overtaking and destroying black communities. It goes back to what I said earlier. We are responsible for what we write, what we do, and what we say. And while it isn't necessarily because of books that people do the things they do, it is entirely possible that the glorification of criminality in ghetto fiction makes it more palatable for people to engage in that type of behavior. | ||
| Dakota Regular Poster Username: Dakota Post Number: 32 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
Solomon, I have to respectfully disagree with you. There are many white writers that glorify things happening in their communities: sex, drugs, murder, etc. Guess what, White People commit murder, do drugs, and have sex too. Just because you don't see it on TV doesn't mean it's not going on. I mean, when Tess Gerritsen or J.A. Konrath writes about a serial killer, are they to blame when someone actually starts commiting serial murders? Give me a break! Do I really have to write a thesis and break it down or what? You know what I'm talking about, but whether you choose to believe it is up to you. What do you call your fiction, by the way? From what I've seen, it contains similar elements to those you complain about. If you truly believe it's only books and hip-hop destroying black communities, that's really sad. Last I heard, no one ever killed anyone over a book in the hood. And what happened during the 1980s and early 90s, when hip-hop fiction wasn't out but the murder rate rose like crazy? I guess everyone was just reading about crack, huh? Funny thing is, I was at the Harlem Book Fair too. I helped sell a bunch of urban books. And guess what? Most of the people purchasing those books were women, and looked like they were at least middle class. Now I know kids are digging urban fiction too, but I really do think we need to step back and take a look at the whole picture. The bottom line is that we can have this argument all day long and minds are not going to change. And in the end, that's the saddest thing of all. | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 108 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dakota - First, I never said, at any point, that books make people kill people, have sex, or anything else. Second, you're trying to make this a racial issue, but it's not. It really is all about us. Of COURSE there are white writers who glorify sex and violence. And of COURSE white people commit murder, have sex, deal dope, etc. But if white writers jumped off bridges, would black writers have to jump off right behind them? No! Because this is America, and we still can't do everything that white folks do and expect to have similar results. I think, however, that you misunderstood what I wrote. I never said that white writers don't write about sex and violence. What I said, using your argument and your examples, was that Stephen King writes fantasy, and Dean R. Koontz writes horror, and neither of them take real-life misery that is killing entire communities and write about it in a way that glorifies it. To say that ghetto fiction makes people kill each other is a ridiculous argument, and one that I would not make. My argument is that we (and perhaps I'm guilty of this, too ... I don't know) glorify certain harmful aspects of ghetto culture in these books. And through that glorification, we legitimize that behavior, thus making it seem more acceptable. And as an aside, I'm well aware of how the media works. I was a journalist for 11 years. I'm also aware that middle aged black women buy ghetto fiction. They buy my books. I love them for that. And I admire people (like yourself) who care enough about black fiction to engage in the debate (fiction, by the way, to answer your question, is a story that is not true. But most good fiction is rooted in some reality). Finally, congrats on selling some books at the Harlem Book Fair. I sold a few too. But at the end of the day, I choose to go beyond selling books. I want to make a difference in our community. And while I agree that it's sad if people dig in on this issue and refuse to take responsibility for what they do, I think it's even sadder if we spend so much time twisting each other's viewpoints that we never take the time to get off these computers, get out on our streets and DO something to make things better. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1432 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM: I agree. Both do occur, but what happens in society is always first, because the writer or artist has to have something from which to pull. And to say that popular culture is the culprit is to excise economics and politics from the equation. This is why I say SJ exaggerates. I do think it glorifies but place much of the blame on pop culture [as he seems to do] is imprecise. I don't know about Columbine! I think their clothes or should I say wardrobe are one thing and WHY they did what they did another...The costumes were the form/the surface/the superficial and the violence and hatred were the content/the exegesis. The first, the wardrobe, can be found in pop. culture and the latter, the violence, alienation, could be found in their homes, at their schools, and also in popular culture. I think that the latter, that is how they related to their family, friends, church, community, etc..., has a much more initimate relationship to the individual than popular culture, which becomes an outlet...but not the substance for why we do what we do! This doesn't mean playing video games with bloodshed and violence doesn't affect your sense of the value of and the respect for life, because it does but it firstly legitimizes the hate directed at Arabs, Muslims, and yes blacks and latinos....anyways! Good Pt! | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 109 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio - I agree with your argument. And I also agree that I would be exaggerating if I tried to blame all our problems on pop culture. Fortunately, that's not what I'm doing. What I am saying is that ghetto fiction mirrors the attitude in pop culture that says whatever you do is fine as long as it feels good, looks good or sounds good. That's literally what pop culture is -- whatever is popular. The second prong of my argument is that we are all responsible for what we do. If, in our art, we glorify negative behaviors such as violence, drug dealing, drug use and illicit sex, then we are saying those behaviors are okay. Is ghetto fiction the only vehicle through which these behaviors are glorified? Of course not. As you rightfully point out, violence and illicit sex is also glorified in movies and video games. And you are absolutely right when you say that such games legitimize hate. I would go even further, though. I would say that video games and other forms of entertainment that glorify negativity legitimize those behaviors by reducing them to the level of a game. That brings me to ABM, who is dead-on when he says that not only does art imitate life. Life imitates art. Exactly! That's why it's laughable to me that anyone can say with a straight face that the glorification of negative behaviors in ghetto fiction, video games or movies has no affect on our attitudes toward those behaviors. | ||
| Dakota Regular Poster Username: Dakota Post Number: 33 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: N/A |
Like I said, we can write about this all day long and no one's mind is going to change. Next!!! | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1433 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Solomon: I thought that we agreed in the first and last place. I was thrown, however, when you stated: If we choose to put out books that glorify the culture that is tearing apart the very fabric of many black communities and: The culture that is destroying our communities has little to do with tradional black values and more to do with the mainstream. In each, you use very strong language. Anyways, I got ya point and agree. Cheers! | ||
| Emanuel "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Emanuel Post Number: 221 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
I remember reading in Stephen King's "On Writing" that some his characters and scenarios are loosely based on his real life experiences. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5430 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I think A LOT of writers - especially GREAT ones - are capable of creating and "selling" things that are NOT necessarily occurring in the community. Or are not occurring in exact the ways or to the degree that their writing suggests. I think hip-hop music and marketing as a WHOLE is a PRIME example of such. So I don't wholly concur that something must occur within a community BEFORE an author can pen it. Again, art can PRECEDE life...often to some devastating effects. I think there's much more of a "circular" effect going on between the reality of our society and culture and how such is depicted. What you have is an act, which is embellished by art, which is embellished by an act. And on and on...and on. Again. I don't think that hip-hop/street lit is by any means the primary instigator of all things evil in the Black community. That would probably be pretty LOW on my listing of the monsters we face. But I do think that it can become one of a series of bricks that are added to a wall that imprison us. PS: I'm going to assume you were being facetious when you blame the Columbine Shootings on the clothing the young killers wore. | ||
| Schakspir "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Schakspir Post Number: 353 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
The problem with so-called "urban" lit--and this is what distinguishes these scribblers from, say, James Baldwin or Richard Wright--is not that it describes sordid sex or drug usage or violence, but that it has no moral distance between itself and the material it talks about. Baldwin, Wright and Himes did; I do. I've written about much the same things in my own novels, but you can't begin to compare my stuff with, say, K'wan. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1436 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
ABM: So I don't wholly concur that something must occur within a community BEFORE an author can pen it. Again, art can PRECEDE life...often to some devastating effects. Ok. If we are speaking of sci-fiction, magical realism and such then I can roll with your point. But what is called "urban fiction" is generally an exaggerated reflection of what happens in the hood. But even when you think of X-Men or even the Wizard of Oz both reflected the social conflict in society...art following life. PS: I'm going to assume you were being facetious when you blame the Columbine Shootings on the clothing the young killers wore. Actually, I did not blame the Columbine Shootings on their clothes. The media and others did. They associated the kids' clothing with the Matrix and Marilyn Manson. Instead, my point was that their clothes do not tell us WHY they did what they did. The fact that the kids were alienated, outsiders, neglected does tell us why they murdered their school mates. In other words, it was not the music or a movie....thats poppycock! It was the problems they encountered with their family, socalled, friends, class mates, community, etc... | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5565 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I agree parental neglect and social alienation are likely the primary cause of the Columbine killings (though I might add there probably was some undiagnosed mental illiness involved as well). Still. I don't think you can wholly exclude the overall social and cultural climate - which includes our music and cinema - from the calulus of what occurred in Colorado, ESPECIALLY given the MANNER in which it occurred. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1438 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Then we are in agreement. I wouldn't exclude the overall social and cultural climate. | ||
| Libralind2 "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Libralind2 Post Number: 374 Registered: 09-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hi SolomonJones: Apooo is reading CREAM this month. I agree with all your comments as well. LiLi | ||
| Troy "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 397 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I attended the panel "Urban Fiction: Creative License or Stuck on Stupid?" The panel participants included Carl Weber (who actually did not attend and was missed), Burrel Wilks (not a nvelist but an author of a memoir that I just finished reading), Solomon Jones, Queen Pen and, Danielle Santiago (both interesting sisters). I gotta tell you King Solomon is my new hero. He came across extemely well. Informed and articlate, his responses were both respectful and deliberate. I gotta run but I`ll talk more about this later... Big up to Solomon Jones! | ||
| Solomonjones "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 110 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Troy. I appreciate that. LiLi. Let me know how the members like it. I'm looking forward to the online chat later this month. | ||
| Libralind2 "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Libralind2 Post Number: 375 Registered: 09-2004 Rating: N/A |
Will do LiLi | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 4867 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I would comply with your remarks, Yukio, because a youth who is rejected and shunned by his peers can be a very dangerous person. In resorting to violence, he has nothing to lose. |
