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     Babygirl "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Babygirl Post Number: 293 Registered: 04-2005 Rating: N/A |
The Black Power of Fiction What the author of John Henry Days and the author of Bad Girlz can learn from each other by Malaika Adero -- 7/10/2006 PW Archive Issue » Columns » Article Among writers and editors of black fiction—and many others in the publishing industry—a debate rages, pitting street lit against literary fiction. Earlier this year, Nick Chiles set the tone with his now famous New York Times op-ed piece (Jan. 4), "Their Eyes Are Reading Smut," which bemoaned the popularity of self-published, poorly published, down-market books portraying African-Americans in their worst light: sex-craving, drug-dealing and gang-banging. The surge in sales of "hip-hop fiction" has clearly struck a nerve. But perhaps we should look beyond the debate for a moment and consider the writers on each side—and what they can teach each other. I happen to be one of many editors at major publishing houses who owes her success—i.e., paycheck—to bestselling authors, many who write books that Chiles would define as smut. I also publish award-winning, critically acclaimed novelists including Jewell Parker Rhodes, Maryse Conde, Carl Hancock Rux, Guillermo Arriaga, Tananarive Due and others whom Chiles and other cultural critics would like to see more of in bookstores across the country. I share their lament. Day after day, my colleagues and I labor to bring more attention to the kind of literary and up-market writing that I know significant numbers of avid book readers and buyers in the black community crave. Every time I have the opportunity to speak to the public and the media, I complain of the relative lack of media interest in books by black writers—except erotica and street lit. When I have the chance to talk with booksellers, I plead with them to give more shelf space to a wider variety of books by and about people of color, in both fiction and nonfiction. I also talk to writers, whether they're seasoned, novice or would-be, telling them no matter what kind of writer they aspire to be or career they want to have, they have a lot to learn and gain from others. So many self-described—or hopeful—"literary" writers put a lot of time into formal education and writers' workshops, earning the favor of cultural institutions that bestow awards so that those writers may achieve the status they seek. But literary writers often invest less of their time and resources in learning how to promote their work, expand on and respond to the desires of their prospective readers, and associate themselves with all kinds of other writers and artists—not just the ones who teach at the right universities and have the enviable contracts with major houses. Commercial writers model for the artsy set new ways to cultivate and expand their audience, and fashion themselves into better business people. On the other hand, so many of the commercially successful authors—once self- or small-published—are amateur writers, albeit with great storytelling and entrepreneurial instincts, and tremendous drive. They could learn from the example of their colleagues who study with and expose themselves to the criticism of their peers and academics; who discipline and challenge themselves to be more creative, rigorous and ambitious in the practice of their craft. These writers are fearless in exposing themselves to new techniques and approaches to language and imagery; and they push their readers to appreciate work that requires more thought and consideration, work that is more than titillation and entertainment. What commercial and literary writers need to remember is that, for the most part, publishing houses need a balance of big profit-makers—the commercially successful—and award-winners—the critically successful—to thrive. But both sides can and should benefit from reading (and observing the promotion behind) all kinds of fiction, especially from people who seem different from themselves. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author Information Malaika Adero, a senior editor at Atria Books, is founder of the Up South International Book Festival and Up South Inc. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5143 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
There a delicate nexus which comes first: The chicken or the egg? Does the Street Lit sell because it's highly and agressively promoted? Or is it highly and agressively promoted because it sells? I think some of BOTH occur. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 2465 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
You'll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public | ||
| Solomonjones AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 94 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
This editor's article illustrates the point that I made on an earlier post on another thread. It's one of the key lessons I've learned as the author of five books -- four of them published by major houses. Editors care about the content of their authors' books. Publishing houses care about how much money they make. They are, after all, in business to make money. And there is nothing wrong with that. If readers are offended by what the publishers provide to them, they have the power to change it. I see the debate about hip hop lit versus literary fiction constantly. But guess what? Readers can force bokstores to change the content of African American sections in bookstores all over the country (Yes, Borders has a segregated African American section and they no longer place the majority of black books in alphabetical order with the rest of the literature ... hmmmmm). You know how readers can change the content? They can change what they're buying. In other words, readers - no scratch that - book buyers (there is a difference) have to vote with their pocketbooks. If black book buyers are offended by the fact that African American shelves are filled with titles like "Whore" and "Bitch", then black bnook buyers have to stop buying them. I guarantee that if sales of hip hop lit plummet, publishers will publish something else that will make money. The question is, are the readers who are bemoaning the proliferation of substandard foiction willing to invest their money into what they're saying? Are they willing to do what the buyers of these books do? They buy two or three titles a week in some cases. Are the readers who don't like these titles willing to do the same? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5151 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Solomonjones, I'd be interested in observing the profile of a person who regularly consumes hip-hop/street lit. Because I would have falsely assumed that most those who'd be interested in reading such stuff would hardly be interested in reading at all. This, thus, begs the question: Are people who are producing and reading hip-hop/street lit NEW writers and readers; are these people who otherwise would NOT be writing and reading? And if they are NEW writers/readers, how can anyone who sincerely values writing and reading and who fears the overall diminishment of literacy as a whole decry NEW readers and writers? | ||
| Solomonjones AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 95 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: |
Abm - I'm in bookstores a lot. I'm at book clubs a lot. I talk with readers a lot. And you'd be surprised by who is reading hip hop lit. Older black women who used to read romance novels are reading it in some cases. I suspect that they want something with a little more edge and a lot more explicit sex. Young girls are reading Terri Woods in the same way that young girls would read Judy Blume when I was coming up in the seventies and eighties. I suspect they want to learn about sex, just like young girls (and boys) wanted to learn about it when I was younger. Finally, young women who came up in the MTV generation are reading hip hop lit because the books speak to the attitudes and culture that has been created by videos. I think that the purveyors of hip hop lit are brilliant. They are hungry. They are shrewd. And they will continue to kick the major publishers' butts if major publishers do not learn to effectively use some of the same guerilla marketing techniques that small presses are using to push their products. One thing I can say for my publisher (and I don't always agree with my publisher). They are trying to reposition my work - which is about the streets but written in a much more literary style - to compete directly with hip hop lit. They are doing so by offering lower prices, edgier covers, and book descriptions that focus more on the street elements of my books than the literary elements. We'll see what happens as a result. But so far, my new book, C.R.E.A.M., is doing fairly well ... without major promotion. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5162 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Solomonjones, So then the hip-hop/street reader is not necessarily a NEW, but is, instead an amalgam of those who during a different time would have read other things. And hip-hop/street books are tapping into the harder and coarser (and sleazier) edge that's been bred into the Zeitgeist over the past generation. I doubt the big publishers will be able to keep pace with younger, hungrier competition. All of the consolidation amongst big media makes them LESS likely to take the kinds of chances and make the kinds of moves that younger, smaller and hungrier cats can make. The best move they can make is to do like the record companies do: Finance the literary equivalents of Missy Elliot, P. Diddy and Jermaine Dupri and let them do their thang. I remember when I first saw your C.R.E.A.M. at a book store. I was surprised to see one of your books with that title and look. But I'm glad that it's working out for you. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1349 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Solomonjones, I am a bit surprised that you seem to be somewhat against the proliferation of hip hop/street/gangsta/ lit. Your first book, pipe dreams, was about the very subject that you know deride. Please enlighten me on your thinking, as I have supported you and bought several of your books. I think that the fact that our community has embraced these new genres shows that we are no longer afraid to acknowledge the fact that we are more than just one kind of people and that we are unafraid to express our diversity in the telling of stories in the way that we choose. Again, other cultures have written in these diverse styles since the dawn of writing so WHY do we bemoan this in our culture? Just as singing one note and calling it music would bore everyone to tears, so would writing in one style bore readers to death and show a lack of willingness to step outside of the acceptable norms invented by others and in a way, being enforced by us.--WHAT IS THE REASON???? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5163 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_womon, At the risk of incorrectly speaking for Solomonjones, I'm not sure his issue is the "proliferation" of hip-hop/street lit. Perhaps what he and others lament is the current PREEMINENCE of those books and particularly how such changes and, perhaps, distorts what other artists (such as him) are compelled to do and endure. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1350 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM, Did you know that Mario Puzo was accused by some of writing smut and trash and portraying Italians in a negative light? All I'm saying is this type of writing is getting a lot of exposure right now, and I think that one day, people will see that this is a good thing--not a bad one. Anytime something generates revenue in the pockets of African Americans, I say it should be a cause to rejoice in these difficult economic times. Instead people are calling for the money to stop rolling. Would you rather things went back to the way they were before this genre exploded? Where you had to look through mainstream bookstores with a magnifying glass to find an AA author? I understand what you and others are saying ABM--but try to see it from a different perspective. I'd still like to hear Solomon's answer. | ||
| Solomonjones AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 96 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_Womon - This is what I said: "I think that the purveyors of hip hop lit are brilliant. They are hungry. They are shrewd. And they will continue to kick the major publishers' butts if major publishers do not learn to effectively use some of the same guerilla marketing techniques that small presses are using to push their products." Please explain to me how this is deriding the genre. All my books are about the streets. I have long acknowledged that. They are also edited well, grammatically correct and spelled correctly. This is my craft. I've spent my life honing it. I respect it. And I respect my readers. There are many writers who don't approach the craft that way. But I think there is something to be learned from other writers, especially those who have learned to market their material effectively. I'm always glad to see other black people make economic inroads. But I hate to see people exploit black consumers by giving them inferior products. I don't care what people write. Just spell it correctly. Edit it. Run it through grammar check. The reality is, our children are reading our work. And they are looking at us as examples of how to write. If they grow up reading books that are not written well, they will go out into society emulating that, and that will stunt their growth. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 2475 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
A woman: To add to the Puzo story he had written two literary novels to great critical acclaim but meager sales. I read one, The Fortunate Pilgrim--good book. I can see why nobody would like it--it was about Italians in New York pre and during WWII--it was a downer. He decided to write something for the money. Frank Sinatra allegedly berated him in public and so did lots of Italians who hate to see themselves depicted as criminals (oddly, lots of real Mafia guys loved the book and the movie). Many writers and genres were considered trash when they were popular--now they are studied as literature. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1366 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
there is a serious issue that SJ, myself, and ABM have brought up: that our readers are reading poorly written books! And that there is a difference between subject matter--the streets, urban black America--and poor writting. | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 472 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, I just finished reading another "street lit" novel, Harlem Girl Lost by Treasure E. Blue (which wasn't too bad of a book, I still have a few issues with it). Although I wasn't completely bowled over by the novel, I like portions of it. While Blue and Noire can not be lumped in the same "poor writing" category as some of the others, for the most part the writing sucks. There are a couple of points from this discussion that I noticed. One, someone mentioned that the writers we consider weak and inferior today, future generations may consider them genius. I doubt that. But it bears noting that all of the AA authors we rever today was not highly though of when they were writing. Richard Wright got dogged, Chester Himes got talked about, James Baldwin, etc. The subject matter of their books were not fully embraced by the then black reading audience either. But the difference between these authors and most of the ones in today hip hop book scene is the knowledge of what makes up a complete sentence. What's wrong with running the damn spell and grammar check before shoving a book in my face? *eyebrow raised* Now as far as the folks buying the books. I am not surprised that older black women are buying the books because they are tired of reading the sister girlfriend romance books. That fact alone, in my opinion, makes this whole conversation moot. Older black women reading the hip hop books is really putting the kiss of death on the hip hop genre. Why? Because they will soon, very soon, say I want to see more romance in the story. So the hip hop writers will start listening to them, because they will all be with publishing houses by then and begin watering down their story or putting in an ill conceived romance in a story where one does not belong just to keep their "audience" and keep the money rolling in. And a little while after that the same "audience" that they broke their backs to cater to, will abandon them in droves and move some place else to get away from the violence and romance. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1351 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
If readers are offended by what the publishers provide to them, they have the power to change it. I see the debate about hip hop lit versus literary fiction constantly. But guess what? Readers can force bokstores to change the content of African American sections in bookstores all over the country (Yes, Borders has a segregated African American section and they no longer place the majority of black books in alphabetical order with the rest of the literature ... hmmmmm). You know how readers can change the content? They can change what they're buying. Solomon, I guess this is the passage that disturbed me about what you posted. It seems as though you are encouraging people not to buy these type books, but if that is not what you were doing, I stand corrected. I have said over and over that many of the writers of hiphop street lit etc, are NOT good writers, but they are excellent storytellers. Having said that, there are many many hip hop writers who ARE concerned with the craft and DO write well. So herein lies the problem---people will miss many excellent writers if they ignore the genre all together. One last thing, these days it would do the public good to distinguish between writers and book producers. ANYONE who can sit down at a computer can put together a story and produce a book. It takes a real writer to study the craft, practice the craft, learn proper spelling and grammar usage, learn how and when to use adverbs (most book producers try to compact their characters emotions into one word, usually the adverb-which produces flat cardboard characters)most instructors will tell you that to become a good writer skilled at the craft, you must learn to use adverbs very sparingly. And I agree. Anyway, Solomon, I still love you and I still think...YOU IS ONE FOINE BLACK MAN!!!! HA! | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1352 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yes,Chris, and of course the trash that Mario Puzo concocted made him millions( even though some of it was received post mortem) and Ill bet few people even remember why they thought his books were trash in the first place. His books became so popular that even after Puzo's death, they attempted to get a ghost writer to continue the Godfather series and as you can see--his writing could not be duplicated! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5168 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_womon, Is it Puzo's writing that "could not be duplicated!" or was it Francis Ford Copolla's production and direction that was (and perhaps still is) without peer? Because I think it is generally acknowledged that Copolla's Godfather I & II are amongst those RARE films that are SUPERIOR to the book(s) from which they are wrought. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 2476 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio: So what are you going to do? Stand them against the wall and shoot them? The so called "good writing" is out there and they don't want it. Maybe you should think of their lives. Maybe you should think of somebody who spends hours at a dull boring job working hard (surprise! There are people who still work hard in America) and are too damn tired to do anything but read for enjoyment. Damn! 50 years ago black people weren't reading anything! Black writers were writing for white people. The last I seen white folks weren't doing so great, either, devouring cheap romances, comic books, insipid mysteries--when they were reading at all. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1354 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM, That the movies are "superior" is a matter of perspective. I happen to have read the books some years after seeing all three godfather movies on video, and I must say--I'm not convinced the movie was better. In fact the third movie sucked and it was based not on Puzo's books, but the one the ghost writer did. In fact, ghost writer is not a good title here, as the writer got a lot of attention while he was writing the book, but not so much once he was done and everyone began the inevitable comparisons between him and Puzo. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5169 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_womon, I appreciate your point that we should be careful to avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water with respect to how we perceive the merits of hip-hop/street lit. I guess for me the question is just how FAR does one concede to the virtue of some (perhaps momentary) infusion of attention and cash. Or at what point does the cost of what we consume outweigh the remunerable benefits of such? I think a worthy parallel can be drawn to that of hip-hop music. Sure the Gangsta/Thug rap has been highly lucrative for some. But I think many would argue the cost of that subgenre of hip-hop – the glorification of crime, murder, incarceration, misogyny, unchecked materialism – outpaces the benefits it engenders. But yes, ultimately in a capitalistic society, the most dependable and consistent virtue is that of getting paid. And to the extent hip-hop/street lit makes money, it will find it backers and apologists. May GOD help what comes of us in the process. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1355 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM, Yes, there is a big problem with allowing cash to be the driving force in the search for acceptable book production and the search for all things literary. You make some good points about where to draw the line. I say that the problem will work itself out as bigger publishing companies buy the popular books and set their editors on task to repair the spelling and grammer issues. A good example of this is Vicki Stringer's LET THAT BE THE REASON. I saw the book when it was self published and felt that it was terrible grammatically--but the difference in that version and the one reprinted later on by ATRIA books, (parent company Simon/Schuster) was like night and day! See, with self publishing, you pay to get your book printed, but have to pay extra for line editing, copy editing, etcetera.. so that's why so many self published books come out unedited as they do. You'd be surprised to discover that many of the writers who are deemed literary, as well as other accomplished writers from other genres have benefitted greatly from having GOOD EDITORS and you'd be surprised if you read their books before they had gone through this process. I'd wager you'd find many of the same mistakes that you find in hip hop fiction--maybe not as many in number, but many of the same. The common misconception is that these literary books go straight from the author's hands and onto bookshelves--NOTHING could be further from the truth! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5173 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_womon, I said the Godfather I & II films are "generally acknowledged" as being better the book (Translation: Most but certainly NOT all would concur with this opinion.). And I made no prior mention of Godfather III. Hell. There are episodes of "The Jerry Springer Show" that are better than that gotdayam Godfather III. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5174 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_womon, Yes. A great editor (ala a great music producer or a great movie director) greatly define, refine and even help bring to life the talents of a writer (ala a singer or an actor). And I hope you are right about the bigger publishers correcting some of the basic editorial miscues found in hip-hop/street lit. Though the cynic in me wonders whether some of those publishers would conclude that Black foks LIKE/PREFER that our books continue to include spelling and grammar errors. Or worse: We be tu ignant tu 'no duh diff'rinse. | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 473 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, A_womon: Hey baby! How are you do-in? I luv u, but Im going to have to cut cha. *LOL* First off you wrote: "See, with self publishing, you pay to get your book printed, but have to pay extra for line editing, copy editing, etcetera.. so that's why so many self published books come out unedited as they do." OK, so a self published author has to pay editors to make sure that he/she's book is the absolute best book it can be. Sounds like a smart intelligent move, and in many of these cases, a very wise investment. To do anything less is simply triflin and shows that the author thinks of me, the reader, as a damn sap, a sucka. Besides, I know more than a few self published authors who have taken the time and expense to have their books edited by more than one editor. So, no, the folks you are championing is just plain cheap and low-rent. A_womon wrote: "You'd be surprised to discover that many of the writers who are deemed literary, as well as other accomplished writers from other genres have benefitted greatly from having GOOD EDITORS and you'd be surprised if you read their books before they had gone through this process." Actually I wouldn't be surprised and I aint surprised by the presence of good editors on the "literary" books. And neither would anyone else who has ever read the ACKNOWLEDGEMENT page that is either at the front or the back of the book. Because usually the first thing the author does besides thanking God and his/her significant others is thank his/her EDITOR! *eyebrow raised* A_womon wrote: "I'd wager you'd find many of the same mistakes that you find in hip hop fiction--maybe not as many in number, but many of the same. The common misconception is that these literary books go straight from the author's hands and onto bookshelves--NOTHING could be further from the truth!" *waving my right hand in the air* I will take that bet THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I bet you WONT find the same mistakes in a literary book that you find in any of your hip hop books. Not when you take the finished products into account. Recall you wrote that these authors don't want to take the money to get an editor. BTW, I have never heard your common misconception that literary books go straight from the author's hands and onto the bookshelves. I must have deleted that group email. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1368 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Hayden: No...I'm gonna get the writers! I'm gonna shoot em, stab em, and then blow of em up and slip the ooze and their remainings in a 40 and a tahitian treat and call it a thug passion latte! Anyways, on another thread I addessed the problem of functionally illiterate people reading poorly written prose. This, I believe, reinforces illiteracy my friend! If we are talkin about improving our lives, then we must make sure that we are at the very least literate! Cut the crap big bruh! In the past, you have even said that alot of pop literature was both popular and well written. So, I'm not askin everyone to write like Colson Whitehead [although apex hides the hurt wouldn't hurt anyone]. I am not evening talkin about those hard working souls who read a Bernice McFadden [i have read her once. It was the Warmest December. While it was as people like to say these days "a good read," it was not literary...it was a nicely told story, ok written, and a little too much emotion but this was necessary; the writing had not led me to that place where i could go with this emotion but perhaps it was because I am a man....don't know!]. These same hard working people too are generally literate and you will find that these same people at the very least read newspapers...my people--hard working people living in housing projects--read the new york times, the daily news, and the Amsterdam on the weekends! And we got Essence, Ebony, and Jet... I am talkin about our functionally illiterate teenages, twentysomethings, and thirtysomethins that read poorly written literature[whom I grew up with]...and they are often the children of those above [as I am], but they do not read the paper on the kitchen table... and do not read the magazines on the coffee table nor the books on the 3 shelved bookshelf across from the coat closet in the faux-foyer [Was it a foyer? actually the door to the apartment was 5 feet away from what was our living room]. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 1138 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
This is a great discussion! Please keep it coming. BTW, it's not just the masses of working stiffs who are less than literate: You'd be surprised how many marginally literate young people are sitting in classrooms at even elite universities. I just read study findings a while back about how few undergrads read for pleasure. And OMG, you should see their writing! Then try to correct them and they take great offense. One student told me once that since this wasn't an English comp class I should be grading based on her ideas and her research and not on her INCREDIBLY DISMAL grammar, spelling, etc. And then many profs are giving up on assigning papers altogether because of the number of folks who just buy papers off the web... And I repeat: These are high achieving students at elite public institutions. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1371 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep: I have also heard of similar stories. One problem is, what was once considered literate in the past is less so now, I suspect. Also, since people can take classes onlines, preparation courses for standardized examinations, etc...shortcuts in other words, they often miss the opportunity to read, read, and read the canon[while eurocentric as hell...it does have alot of nice words and is almost always well written]. The writing now is also a problem. Folk aren't taught grammar and punct. in elementary school and when they are they rebel...I was one of these recalcitrant youths, like your student. Although i believe my writing is almost where it should be, I have regretted my juvenile rebellion against good grammar and punction. Finally, there is also the problem across the country of the failure of English departments to stress Rhetoric! I have heard stories of graduate students in sociology and anthropology and all of the other ologies of the social scienes being required to at the very least incorporate a grammar, punctuation, and composition component in their discussion sections...and these graduate students are literate but still very inexperienced writers! Where do you teach? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5184 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, There was a time when at least the Elites of this country (and world as a whole) had to be especially literate and well-read. Books, periodicals and letters were the only source of discourse. Plus, it took a lot more TIME for media to travel from person to person. Combining those resulted in foks making much more of an INVESTMENT in what they read and wrote. We - and that INCLUDES those at Harvard and Howard - don't speak and write particularly well because the circumstances of our lives and our living does not require us to. We receive much more in the way of visual cues (e.g., movies, TV, video, internet, signs, etc.). And our young foks are in particular being deluged by such. Plus, we receive our media much more quickly and easily. And like most other things we receive with minimal effort: We tend not to be especially respectful of such. I am a person who reads and writes voraciously. So I'll likely always champion these more traditional modes of discourse. However, I am willing to consider the potential benefits of other forms of media, assuming such proves to be effective and practical. My questions and concerns about coarsening or lessening of reading and writing is NOT that such is occurring but rather does that actually result in the overall dumbing-down of people, both as individuals and as a society as a whole. Because an American populace that was pretty well-read and abreast of world history and geopolitics might NOT have voted to re-elected a President that's gotten us into the shythole we currently are in in the Middle East. Maybe it's in the vested interests of some that we DON'T spend much time reading and writing, unless of course such involves Paris Hilton and Beyonce. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 1139 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I have previously been a teaching assistant while a masters student at Purdue. Now I am a PhD student (but, if all goes well, only for another couple months!) at the University of Minnesota. Most of the undergrads I supervise now are doing independent study research projects, so thankfully are a little more serious. They each have to prepare a real research report that will be presented to the whole department (faculty, other undergrads, grad students). Maybe that is part of the key to their much better writing: They see themselves as writing for a real purpose. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1373 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
abm: good explanation for the change of standards of literacy...hmmmm....I think that the overall dumbing down of people does hurt the US, but especially those already at the very bottom... i would also add...that in the past, as you stated, there was this elite of literate people and the majority illiterate, limited to reading the bible at the most...now there is this large pop. of functionally illiterate and semi-literate people, so really these fools that have been elected is really no different than the fools that were elected [eisenhower and others] that were elected because they were killers...aka, generals and such... | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1374 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep: Well, good luck to you and your studies. I presume that the if all goes well caveat means you are completing your dissertation or, and excuse my misoygy[sp], you are quiting school because your rich beau will pay all the bills and leave you home to enjoy your work at your leisure. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1375 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
oh...yvettep: are you getting your ph.d in literature. I have a friend who is trying to decide if she wants to enter a ph.d program in English or in Education, teaching rhetoric and literacy. If so, is there any advice you have for her? | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1356 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ok, first of all let me say...WOW! Thumper talked to ME! HA! Second Ima haveta cut ya back. waving my right hand in the air* I will take that bet THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I bet you WON'T find the same mistakes in a literary book that you find in any of your hip hop books. Not when you take the finished products into account The thing about taking my bet--you would definitely lose that one as a lot of "scholarly" writers DO NOT have a clue about proper grammer! Sooo, how much you want to lose, Thump? My point was if you laid both books UNedited side by side, if not for the content--you'd be hard pressed to tell who was the scholar and who was the unskilled hip hop writer. I absolutely stand by this claim. It's been proven. My point is this--before I got my agent, I considered self publishing and let me tell you, Im no where near rich! But one editor was going to charge me $3 per page and since my MS is 375 page, that is well over $1000 that did not include line editing Plus $5000 to print and get into one online bookstore. So tell me, how many young people have 6- 10 grand in the bank to invest in a book right off the rip??? | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 1140 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: |
completing your dissertation Yup! My husband has "paid all the bills" for many a year now and is really looking forward to me working a real J.O.B. My field is family social science, an interdisciplinary field combining psychology, sociology, and a whole bunch of other social sciences. Encourage your friend to explore PhD programs in rhetoric. In my U for example the rhetoric dept is housed in the College of Biological sciences, not the English dept. There is a HUGE need in the sciences for people who can write well and translate findings in ways that the general public can digest. I know of several English majors who have made that switch and have not regretted it. Cuz if we acknowledge that too many folks are (language) illiterate, just imagine what their science and math literacy is like. ABM: Agree 100%. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5186 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I agree that literacy was mostly a skill of the privilege few, partly because schooling was less available, partly because most people did not have to be able to read and write to mete out a credible existence and lifestyle and partly because books were harder to come by. So we should celebrate the masses of today's people being able to do what MANY of their grandparents could not. I think, however, you'll find that Bush's predecessors (especially his most recent one Bill Clinton) were very literate and well-read men, ESPECIALLY the "killers" like Ike. Because most of America's war chieftains got CLASSICAL educations. And there's no way in hell you're going to get through Homer's "The Iliad", Milton's "Paradise Lost" and Shakespeare’s' "Julius Caesar" and NOT know how to friggin' read and write! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5187 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep: "ABM: Agree 100%." Thanks. I can die now. Hahahaha!!! | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 1141 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
A-woman, allow me to promote the custom writing services of a friend: http://www.thelastwordllc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemi d=26 | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1357 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Yvettep! That would have been VERY VERY helpful a year ago before I searched for and found an agent to represent my work--now once she sells it, the editor at the publishing company will handle any editing. But thanks a lot for the heads up! I will DEFINITELY refer other new writers to your friend! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 5189 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, Well. I don't know how good a President Ike was or wasn't. And if we're going to contrast the 2, I'm likely more disappointed in Clinton than I am Ike because Clinton did no better than Ike and yet he had a lot MORE than Ike to work with. And Ike Appointed Earl Warren, the Chief Justice who presided over a unanimous decision in the "Brown vs Topeka Kansas" case. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1377 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Interesting...I was going to mention Mr. Clinton the Rhode scholar too....lol! My point in mentioning Eisenhower was to suggest that valor in a war does not make a competent president...but thats my opinion. A_womon: congrats on the agent! Generally, "literary" writers are often journalists, english teachers, editors, etc... | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1378 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
abm: I'm not comparing... but i didn't like either...LOL! | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1358 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thank you, Yukio! | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 1379 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
you are welcome...and I look forward to reading your book! | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1359 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
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| Solomonjones AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Solomonjones Post Number: 97 Registered: 02-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_Womon Thanks for your compliment. I appreciate that. I am not trying to discourage anyone from buying what they want to buy. I am challenging those who find badly written hip hop lit disturbing to buy something they find entertaining and well-written. And I'm challenging them to do it in great numbers. Only by doing that will they see any change in the publishing industry. I believe in the basic economic tenet of supply and demand. If buyers show a demand for a certain product, manufacturers (publishers in this case) will supply it in greater numbers. In the very simplest terms ... if you don't like what you see in black publishing, put your money where your mouth is. | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 474 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, A_womon: That wasn't a cut. I wouldn't qualify that one as a scratch. Let's do this! A_womon wrote: "The thing about taking my bet--you would definitely lose that one as a lot of "scholarly" writers DO NOT have a clue about proper grammer! Sooo, how much you want to lose, Thump?" How much you got? *eyebrow raised* Tell me which "scholarly" writers you are talking about and where can we get our hands on one of their UNedited manuscripts at? A_womon wrote: "My point was if you laid both books UNedited side by side, if not for the content--you'd be hard pressed to tell who was the scholar and who was the unskilled hip hop writer. I absolutely stand by this claim. It's been proven." Proven with who? I have to admit that I've seen a few unedited manuscripts but I have not seen any on the par of your unedited hip hop writers, so I'm more than a little interested in the case you're putting forth here. A_womon wrote: "My point is this--before I got my agent, I considered self publishing and let me tell you, Im no where near rich!" Congratulations! You're half way there! *big smile* A_womon wrote: "But one editor was going to charge me $3 per page and since my MS is 375 page, that is well over $1000 that did not include line editing Plus $5000 to print and get into one online bookstore. So tell me, how many young people have 6- 10 grand in the bank to invest in a book right off the rip???" Many don't! That's why the old saying is "anything worth having is worth working and saving for". But we know of authors who have done just that. And lets say your hip hop writers don't go the way I believe they should, at the very least they could do is running the freaking spell/grammar check that comes with every freaking word processing program on the market. Am I right or wrong? *eyebrow raised* Let me know when you have those unedited manuscripts. | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1360 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ok Thumper! a scratch! HA! Thanks for the congrats on my agent! I don't exactly have a copy of one of the unedited manuscripts, but one of my instructors had one, I believe it was "of mice and men" by ummmm dang what was dude's name? I think it was Steinbeck- and we compared his errors to a hip hop writer who shall remain nameless. don't quote me on that book an author, it was a while ago--it may have been "catcher in the rye" Ha! I know I know- you gone tell me to get my facts straight before I step to you! HA! I'M GUILTY! HAHA! | ||
| A_womon "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 1361 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Solomonjones, You're welcome and it's the truth it is!!! ;) | ||
| Batmocop AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Batmocop Post Number: 90 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: |
You know what guys? This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time. I really enjoyed the challenges as well as the structured opinions. This is why I joined this forum!!!!! Thanks for a good read!!! Yukio, ChrisHayden,SJ,A_Woman,Thump, ABM,YvetteP. I would like to opine on this subject but I just got back and it's late. I feel like I've been treated to a seven-course discourse that has truly satisfied my pallet for the evening. But really; again, thanks for keeping it real and on topic. It was great! I really missed this forum. |
