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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 368
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 01:39 pm: | 
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I attended a panel discussion entitled Their Eyes Were Reading Smut: The Impact of Ghetto Fiction on African American Literature which featured the following panelists (pictured above): Nick Chiles, author, and journalist, Nikki Turner, author of “Project Chick”, and “Riding Dirty on I 95” http://authors.aalbc.com/nikki_turner.htm, Benilde Little author of "Who Does She Think She Is?", and Malaika Adero, senior editor of Atria Books
It was an interesting panel; probably far better attended and more interesting than any panel I’ve attended in the last 6 years, at the African American Book Sellers conference, held during BEA.
Generally during the Q&A after a panel discussion people, when left unrestricted, will launch into diatribes or extended commercials. This panel was no exception. However in rare cases this actually works to the audience’s benefit; as it did with this panel. In this case, the audience was full of industry professionals who had a lot to offer. One glaring example was the perspective of the bookseller. The panel would have been much better with a bookseller present. At least a couple of booksellers present made this point – including yours truly.
During the Q&A I mentioned the fact that the so called “Ghetto Fiction” author actually facilitates the sale of their books. The authors actually buy advertising, the publishers offer favorable terms, provide give-a-ways and barter services. I even mentioned that the sales of Nikki Turner’s books alone would make AALBC.com profitable. Zane is another example.
I mentioned that most literary publishers, in general, do none of the above. We already know that book sales for authors at the major houses are down – across the board. This is part of the reason. The so called “Ghetto Fiction” are crowding out other authors in both the physical space and cyberspace. I mentioned that I had a desire to promote more literary work but the publishers need to help me. My question was; “How do I get publishers to help me help them?” (admittedly, in the back of my mind I was thinking buying some advertising on AALBC.com would significantly help, but that is a topic of another post).
Another bookseller from Karibu, mentioned that I should review the materials sent to me from the publishing houses and look for these titles. This is a good idea if you are sufficiently motivated and have the time. When I started AALBC.com this is what I did, because books by Black authors were not nearly as plentiful as they are today. In the 90’s I mined the net, books stores, the pages of QBR, Mosaic and Essence, this discussion board, and reviews looking for literary titles to promote. However times have changed.
Malaika Adero in response to my question mentioned the author Eisa Nefertari Ulen the author of Crystelle Mourning A Novel http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743277589/aalbccom-20 Malaika then followed up and introduced me to this author the following day. I then ran into Eisa at book launch party for Lyah Beth Leflore, in Harlem, a few days later. So of course now I feel it was meant for me to spread the word about this author (though Adero's reccomendation alone was sufficent).
Malaika has a tremendous amount of my respect and the respect of many others in the industry, so if she says this is an author you should read… trust me, check Eisa Ulen out. Eisa’s book will be released in August. Crystelle Mourning A Novel has been described to me as a quality literary work that is an urban tale. Hopefully Simon and Schuster will buy some advertising and help me promote this book. I also hope if you choose to buy the book you will use the link above.
Bottom line, if we want more literary work we have to buy literary work and publishers are going to have to be more agressive on the adverting and promotion front.
Peace,
Troy
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2219
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 02:09 pm: |
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Troy:
I have been trying to make this point for years.
The Ghetto fiction is paying the bills so that the publishers can put out the literary fic.
That's the bottom line. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 369
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 05:09 pm: |
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I hear you Chris, but I believe literary fiction can be commercially viable. Besides it does not make sense for a publisher to publish a book simply because they think another book will cover the cost. Each book is published on its own merits (commercial viability). The risk is mitigated across the whole portfolio of books. Consider; some urban books fail to make a profit and some literary works are wildly successful. Also consider there are houses that only publish literary work.
Chris, tell me why someone who spent the better part of the last decade behind bars can come out and make more on of an impact on the book scene than an author with the resources of a major house behind them?
The major houses will get pummeled (for both their literary and commercial books) unless they take a page or two from the so called "Ghetto" author/publishers promotions playbook.
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Batmocop
Regular Poster
Username: Batmocop
Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 06:56 pm: |
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"Chris, tell me why someone who spent the better part of the last decade behind bars can come out and make more on of an impact on the book scene than an author with the resources of a major house behind them "
Troy I would venture to guess that the buying public is getting younger and there is a section of the population that is reading the "Ghetto Fic" and loving it. It makes sense to me that an untapped market will rear it's head when it's called upon. I mean look at Zane. She is the Stephen King of Black Sex novels. Now everyone that does it is compared to her.
Another thing to consider is that with so many of us behind bars, those books may be being sold on the premise of a an association (meaning large numbers of cons or ex-cons who have learned to read to pass the time, or those thug wannabe's that want to live the life vicariously through their books while hiding them behind that Phonics book in catholic school. Either way somebody is reading this stuff and is moving the market to suit them because of the margins they are obviously bringing in.
(That's a helluva guess huh?)
BatMo->
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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 371
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 09:51 pm: |
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Hey Batmocop, the question was a rhetorical one for Chris (I never ask Chris a question I don't already know the answer to). However you make some good points that illustrate, I think, why the "Ghetto" genre will be around for a while.
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Soul_sister
Veteran Poster
Username: Soul_sister
Post Number: 51
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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Hey Troy
It was nice meeting you -- AALBC's presence and influence was strongly felt. I too attended the session on Urban Lit and it is sad to say that the core appetite has changed and people seemingly like the trite, simple and vulgar stories. Of course, I have never read an entire novel of Urban lit but the first 50 pages and splurbs repluse me -- with the cursing and graphic sex.
There were two women in particular who captured my attention - the sister from the music industry who made comparions between music and literature -- but of which are in decline - with blackfaces and white hands counting dollars. She continued on to say conversely, there is some redemption about the notorious Cousin Pookie - which most every Black family has -- the one who has talent and ability but chooses to do wrong - in and out of jail and bad situtations - the Urban Lit - helps her attempt to understand them - and support those who have had their awaken
Concurrently, one sister say we all have voices and can sing - but everyone does not need a record deal - Yup, there are some holdouts - me included -- who will not support the leaping lemming idea -- behind popular fiction - and will cull the shelves for good stories -- bilsdungroman characterized pieces of art -- they are few and far between -but as long as there are few -- I'll be alright -- peace
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 456
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 06:46 pm: |
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Hello All,
I attend that session as well...and ended up getting in a small debate of my own, sitting in the back of the room. Now, I can understand that the thug books are selling and is the major draw for booksellers. As I said before, the sista-girlfriend books held this position a mere few years ago. But, just because a certain type of book is selling don't make the damn thing literature. This is the only thing that pisses me off when it comes to these books, many of the authors believe their the sh_t when they're writing sucks. None of them is Iceberg Slim nor Donald Goines, so there ain't no need of them even THINKING that they are. Look, keep it real or keep it moving! Hell, pet rocks was once a popular, profitable fad too, but that don't mean I want one to guard my house!
My issue with the thug books isn't the subject matter. I have issues with the folks who down the genre and then WON'T BUY OR READ the well written fiction. I am beyond the lip service.
Second, the major houses will, and will probably continue to have bestsellers that supports their other non-selling literary titles. These titles are always promoted at the big events, like the BEA. Oh, but let me correct myself, the non-selling literary titles WRITTEN BY WHITE AUTHORS! Example, the autographing area (for those who have never been to the BEA--this is the area I live for) the white authors of literary titles by the major houses were there. If the author wasn't there in person, the advance reader copy of their books was there. Example, one of the hottest titles there this year, which might be a bestseller, was the big ass-ted Mary Todd Lincoln biography. I didn't see none of our popular AA authors with the major houses there at the event. Nor, did I see any ARC (Advance Reader Copy) of any of their upcoming titles out and about. The AA authors that were there were the writers of they so called ghetto books and erotica books. But maybe the old adage is still true, money talks, bullsh_t walks. And its evident what the money is saying. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 376
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:10 pm: |
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Hey Thumper unfortunately I could not take advantange of the autograph line, but I did manage score an advance reader copy of Edward P Jones' next book All Aunt Hagar's Children http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060557567/ref=nosim/aalbccom-20 (due in September of this year).
Thump, a couple of things. Most of the so called urban fiction authors I've spoken to while, very high on their own work show mad respect for Goines, in fact his is revered. While there is that respect they typically want to develop their own voice. Besides it is not that deep they are writing to a particular audience or for a reader looking for that "urban" experience.
Don't you ever just want a big juicy burger or just spend an afternon playing dominoes and throwing back a few cold brews?
One day when we can all put our heads and money together we can create our own Black publsihing company and print all the Black literary fiction we want.
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Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 194
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 02:18 pm: |
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Why don't the street lit publishers put out more hard cover books? Are they too expensive for their audience? Do they cost too much to produce? Wouldn't they make more money that way? |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2232
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 03:17 pm: |
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Emanuel:
I would bet that their audience doesn't buy hardcover books.
$14.00 or less they plunk down for a CD.
"Bling Bling Gangstas" (your archetypal street book title) for $25.00? Don't push your luck. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 380
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:28 pm: |
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Emanuel,
Check out Vickie Stringer's latest effort due July 11th of this year in Hardcover
http://authors.aalbc.com/vickie_stringer.htm
The cover is quite nice and the title and story sounds compeling enough to entice all of the hardcore urban fans and even those too coy to try an urban title before now.
Notice this is not a Triple Crown Publication but one from Atria (Simon and Shuster). The book retails for $23.95 and Amazon is already retailing it for 35% off or 15 bucks.
I predict this book will do very well.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1282
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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I know nothing about the publishing business, so please break down this paragraph for me, like I'm a six year old.
During the Q&A I mentioned the fact that the so called “Ghetto Fiction” author actually facilitates the sale of their books. The authors actually buy advertising, the publishers offer favorable terms, provide give-a-ways and barter services. I even mentioned that the sales of Nikki Turner’s books alone would make AALBC.com profitable. Zane is another example.
What do you mean or what does Troy mean by "give-a-ways and barter services"?
Services . . . from the publisher or this website? And how can AALBC.com profit from all of this . . . as I understand it, AALBC.com is not a publisher, right?
Help a know-nothing out!
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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 382
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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Hi Yukio,
I'll clarify: In general the so called "urban" authors, from at least my perspective, help faciliate the sales of their books.
For example, Black Pearl Books has sponsored give aways. The Author Relentless Aaron included AALBC.com company name and logo on the lastest version of his wrapped car and much more. These are just a few examples...
Of course all of this results in reciprocation or free promtion from AALBC.com.
Bottom line, from AALBC.com's perspective there are a fixed number of hours in the day; so when it comes to getting the word out about books and it is much easier to talk about books you are aware of -- whether that awareness was raised through promotion or advertising.
Major houses are not as nearly proactive in bartering, marketing or adverting their literary fiction.
In today's environment, with all of the competition for a customer's attention the publishers of literary work will have to be much more proactive in selling this stuff -- if indeed they want it to sell. They will have to seek unique ways to promote and advertise these book.
The word needs to get out about their product. They have to explain to folks why they need to buy this stuff (read: sell) -- otherwise the numbers will continue to go down.
Hoping people will stumble across or have their work hand sold in a book store is not going to happen -- those days are virtually over. Besides, readers are increasingly buying books online (bookstore are places where people buy mocha frappacios).
There are three ways we are going to learn about a book; (1) it sells a lot of copies, (2) you view an ad or some form of promotional material or (3) someone tells you about it.
The sequence is usally #2, #3 and then #1.
The "Urban" authors will make sure #2 and #3 are taken care of; the literary fiction publishers, relatively speaking, do a much poorer job.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 02:37 pm: |
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thank you sir! |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 195
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 04:48 pm: |
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Troy,
You're right about Vickie Stringer's cover. It's one of the hottest ones I've seen in a while. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 01:31 pm: |
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It's a nice cover . . . nice, long, delicious legs, ready to part . . . LOL! But the bottom line is, those of us interested in literary fiction will not read this stuff!
What you all say makes sense to me, particularly about the need to get literary fiction to a larger market. Call me cynical, but even if this happpened, that is if lit. fiction was marketed to the "masses," it still wouldn't be read, because there will always be a larger market for commercial fiction than for literary fiction.
It seems to me that the argument that sales are "down" is really questionable. How does one determine if sales are down? I don't know, so this is for you guys and gals in the industry to explain. Nevertheless, I wonder what variables are actually used to determine this . . .
I suspect that in the long past, it was easier to sell literary fiction because the literate population was relatively small, so that with this small population of readers, to sale well then is not comparable to selling well now, when the reading population is much, much larger, and the number of publications are much, much larger (we can even argue that the commercial literature of the recent past was literary in comparison today's commericial fiction. . . Thus, while the present day's reading population is larger it is not as well educated, so that we have this population of functionally illiterate folk who can read but are not what we would really consider literate.
A significant component, as Thumper addresses, is not only this question of marketing, but the fact that this is a racist society, where black folk still have to get through white institutions to get by . . .
I don't know . . . I am just ranting, but I think these issues must be considered: this issue of higher education, the literacy of the consumer market, the quality of the literature (be it literary or commercial), and certainly this question of racism and white privilege.
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Batmocop
Regular Poster
Username: Batmocop
Post Number: 49
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 08:17 pm: |
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Yukio,
I think this is just a different time. I would submit that the smaller population of literary fiction readers was actually quite large and closely connected. Take for example a book like the Celestine Prophecy; it was a huge hit for academics and theologians. So it ran the gamut of college halls and intellectual circles spreading like wildfire into the general media, and consequently the general public.
We do not get that type of Buzz or coverage to allow a great piece of literature to foster that kind of attention. But take a book like the emperor of Ocean Park. As long-winded as it was it was still a great piece of literary fiction. It got it's run I think mostly because of his stature from being lauded as one of America’s most prestigious black people.
I'm not gonna say we aren’t as smart as we used to be as a people. I would more say that the current generations’ focus is more material than intellectual, probably stemming from the lack of experience of their once too young parent's raising them the best (or the worst) they could.
Just my two cents...
BatMo->
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 09:28 pm: |
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batmocop:
My point is that most folk weren't literate; and even commercial fiction required a considerable understanding of the the english language. This necessarily narrows the number of readers and the numbers of publications, the population wasn't as large, the publishing companies probably did not publish as much books, the market of writers was not as large, etc...
If this is the case, how do we determine if the sales of literary fiction has gone "down"?
Put another way, do the statistians and surveys take into consideration population growth, literacy, the qualitity of literacy as compared to the past, etc. . .
I've read a few books, here and there, but I can't read no damn Latin, Greek, etc . . .
Not only are there more commercial fiction writers, but there probably are more literary fiction writers too!
There are various MFA programs around the country that produce these literary stars . . .
Back in the day, you just wrote from college if you went . . . and you happened to love to read . . . read baldwin and others, they all say that they spent much of their time in the library, Claude McKay says the same, Amiri Baraka, Langhton Hughes, etc . . .
All I'm saying is that one has to consider what has happened in society besides lookin at numbers . . . which by the way, I know nothing about . . . lol! This is anotha rant! Too much coffee and what can I tell you?
Concerning your post:
Is Celestine Prophecy the exception or the rule?
Probably the exception.
And the pool of academics and theologians is small, by the way.
We are less literate. Part of it relates to parents youth, but the majority of it pertains to U.S. educational system in general.
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Batmocop
Regular Poster
Username: Batmocop
Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 10:15 pm: |
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You know, I really do have to agree with you on the actual size of the pool of academics etc; however, they do have a large impact mostly because of their target audiences. (churches, students) I personally don't think the statisticians have it right. The reality is the buying/reading public is subject to the trends comonly seen in the retail clothing arena. People (the scant few by population) want to wear that P. Diddy (stuff) I'll be nice. and they want to read Zane. I am a fan of whatever is getting theem to pick up a book in the first place. But picture this, maybe they will out grow the thug smut, and decide to step up to the classics. Just as Angel flights and Members Only fell by the way side. So shall miseducating banter in the form of illiterature.
Oh, and yes the Celestine Prophecy was definitley the exception...
Peace...
BatMo-> |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 196
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 10:24 am: |
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Yukio,
I just think tastes change decade after decade. Not only that but there is way more competition for your entertainment dollars than there was when literary fiction was popular. We now have IPods, DVDs, PlayStation, and more. Plus, reading books is very time-consuming, and it seems that we have less and less time to spare as a society.
In my case, I usually read to learn. So I mostly read non-fiction titles. When it comes to fiction, I usually read what I paid to review or I might read a book that has been getting lots of buzz. I really don't want to read another "We Were Once Slaves"-type of book or "We Used To Get Lynched"-type of book, especially in literature. I'm sick of them, and belive me, I get it. I don't really want to read the thug or I was once a ho stuff either. And I'd much rather watch a movie for entertainment than I would read a book. It has nothing to do with my education (bachelor's degree). It's just my personal taste and my own choices.
I don't think literary fiction will ever be the dominant category again. Our tastes have changed too much. |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 88
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:22 pm: |
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As a writer who has tried to straddle the fence between literary and commercial, I find this debate very interesting. My work has always juxtaposed the realities of the streets against wider segments of society (the church, law enforcement, politics), but I've always tried to respect the craft. I'll never forget when I showed a friend the first draft of my first novel Pipe Dream back in 1995. She said, "Solomon, I know you know other nouns besides sh-t." She was right. My then-girlfriend (now my wife of six years) said basically the same thing when I showed it to her. She then helped me to edit it. After five drafts, it was clear to me that the writing was stronger without heaping helpings of sex and profanity, and I've maintained that standard with all my work since then.
How ironic that the very thing I've made a point to stay away from is now the very thing that's selling. C'est la vie.
It's doubly ironic that my next book, C.R.E.A.M. -- a political thriller that compares and contrasts the politics of the streets to the politics of City Hall -- is being marketed as street lit. The cover is not reflective of what the story is about. But the publisher is gambling that the book will reach beyond my core audience (educated women 25 and up) and grab the street lit audience as well. I hope they're right.
You can see the cover image here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312348371/sr=8-1/qid=1150859789/ref=pd_bbs_1/1 02-8352245-0743349?%5Fencoding=UTF8
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Sisg
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 260
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 09:24 am: |
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Solomon,
Your writing and books have always been a joy, and not what i would consider Street Lit at all, but possibly urban adventures (i know not a genre...but) anyway I loved Pipe Dream, and the way you portrayed the realness of the streets and your characters...i learned a lot from your writing as well as the writings of Walter Mosley and Bernice McFadden. I will be sure to check out your next book C.R.E.A.M. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 384
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:51 pm: |
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Hey Solomon,
The cover is straight up street. Based upon the cover I would have never surmised it was a political thriller of the depth you describe.
It remains to be seen if the publisher is correct on the cover decision. Seems pretty risky. While an informed book seller could sell the book and manage expectations; I think most folks will be simply misled into expecting one thing but getting something entirely different. I hope -- some are be pleasantly surprised but I'm sure others will be left wondering.
How does your publisher intend to promote the book? Don't interpret this as a slick way of drumming up advertising. I'm just curious. Because part of the effort will be help the customer rationalize the cover with the contents.
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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 386
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:18 am: |
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And if you are going to buy the book online please use the link provided below:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312348371/ref=nosim/aalbccom-20
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