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Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 187
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 12:59 pm: | 
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Hey,
When ya'll get a chance, stop by my blog on writing and publishing and check out my post on getting rejected by an agent. Be sure to post your comments. I think there's something there for everyone, especially new writers.
Here's the link:
http://emanuelcarpenter.blogspot.com/
Peace,
Emanuel Carpenter
www.emanuelcarpenter.com |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4409
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 06:09 pm: |
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Hey Emanuel: The criticism leveled at my writing has always been that I "told" more than I "showed". But since one of the reasons I self-published was to have control over my output, I wasn't strongly motivated to change my style and adhere to this cardinal rule of fiction writing. I just felt that if during your narrative you "told" the story in a compellng and clever manner, then you not only entertained your readers but you invited them to be participants in the reading experience by leaving certain things up to their imaginations. Dialogue was what I always relied on to enliven the plot and bring the characters to life, and it was what I focused on in the "shown" scenes that were scattered throughout the passages that were "told."
BTW, there was time when it was a no-no to include 2 POVs in a single passage, but over time authors began to ignore this caveat and now it's a common practice to tell what both characters are thinking during an exchange in the same paragraph. Maybe, in time, the arbitrary rule of showing instead of telling will become more flexible depending on how effective the story is being told and how seamlessly it seques into the scenes that are acted out. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2187
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:54 am: |
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It is good when an agent or editor or publisher sends along some comments--that means that you do have something there--
Practice practice practice and read read read--
There is no harm in studying how the greats did it. |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 188
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 07:26 pm: |
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Thanks for the replies Cynique and Chris.
Cynique,
I know exactly what you mean. The question is, do you change your style in hopes of signing with the Majors, or refuse to compromise and hope someone with power will forgive the supposed rules and welcome you with open arms?
I'm with you on the POV thing. I read the acclaimed "History of Love" and had a problem reading the 2 POVs. Then I read "So You Call Yourself a Man" and saw 3 POVs. Now I'm reading "Changing Faces" and there are 2 first-person POVs and 1 third-person POV. I haven't read the ending of "Changing Faces" yet but I have a feeling there will be a death in the third-person POV because it wouldn't make sense to have it otherwise. (By the way, all 3 books have some great writing in them.)
For me, I wasn't trying to be a trailblazer or anything. I just get tired of reading a bunch of "Waiting to Exhale" wannabee-books whose plot is around 3 or 4 people, usually friends or at least with stories inter-related. I wanted to write 1 POV, first-person and really dig deep into his mind.
Thanks for listening to my rant. Be sure to stop back by my blog. I've written 2 more posts I know you will enjoy.
Peace,
Emanuel |
Robynmarie
Newbie Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 08:28 pm: |
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Hang in there, EC! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1242
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 12:47 am: |
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the fact is . . . certain literary strategies work better than others . . . you have to work within the constraints of the these . . . i actually thought that the rejection letter was helpful and instructive. as Chris Hayden says, it won't hurt to learn from the greats . . . and the fact of the matter is, you have to be a reader to be a writer . . . |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 189
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 09:30 am: |
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You're right Yukio. That critique was incredibly valuable. I definitely plan on learning from it by using the agent's advice. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4413
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 12:39 pm: |
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To me, Emanuel, all the critique did was to suggest that you play it safe and adhere to the generic formula, a formula which, incidentally, is of relatively recent vintage. Many, many literary classics consist of pages and pages of narrative, that show off the writing skills of the author. e.g. Marcel Proust and Charles Dickens. And even today, I have read published books that actually tell more than they show. Pop lit is where the text is full of graphic examples of show rather than tell. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1244
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 07:22 pm: |
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cynique:
I agree with your general point. But, the issue is . . . skill! If a person can skillfully tell and through the telling or the narration show then this is to the good. The fact is, sometimes the actual story is less about the plot and more about the actual telling or narrating, so that the drama and the real meaning of the story is embedded in the actual telling . . .
A recent publication, well 2002, Victor Lavalle's Ecstatic . . . clever! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4416
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:45 pm: |
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You are correct, Yukio. And I might note further that because there are not only different writing styles, there are also different categories of readers. Not all people are good readers because they don't know what to look for in a book. All they require is a dramatized plot replete with characters that are either good or bad, and a happy ending. So be it. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1336
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 08:43 pm: |
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Here's the thing, if you want to be recognized in the traditional publishing world, you take their suggestions and play by their rules. Most of the time if it is a reputable agent,or publisher, they know what works and what doesn't and what will sell and what won't if they say you need to work on certain areas, to improve your work, nine times out of ten they are right.
We all like to believe that our project is perfect and sellable from the moment we type "the end" but the truth of the matter is, all good writers are used to being told that they need to do rewrites or were once rejected by a major player in the publishing world the ones who took the advice of the ones who rejected them are probably doing very well as authors ---the ones who choose not to, well there's always self publishing and selling your own books...
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1338
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 09:01 pm: |
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Oh yeah in fiction telling and not showing is one of the cardinal sins! (that along with "being too expository" and allowing your "author omniscience" to tell how your story ends) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4420
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
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Obviously what is being discussed here is commerical fiction, and it does behoove a writer who wants to improve their chances of getting published to adhere to a tried and true formula. This doesn't preclude that fact that there are risk takers who are in the vanguard of experimental fiction, some of whom have enjoyed success in this genre. BTW, Toni Morrison with her exquisite command of language has always been a storyteller who told more than she showed. Which might be why there are a lot of readers who are daunted by her style of writing. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1339
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 09:50 am: |
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right and surely you don't suggest that there are others who are in the same realm as Toni Morrison? Very few can carry off a story as she does. In the same token, there are a lot of readers who don't happen to like Ms Morrison's writing style, and who are neither daunted nor have their interest piqued by it. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4421
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:25 am: |
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Be that as it may, I am impressed with Toni Morrison's stature and her Noble prize for literature and couldn't care less about those who aren't piqued or daunted by her writing. It's their loss as far as I am concerned. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1340
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
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PS
Toni Morrison and other writers like her are considered "literary" and as such her style would not translate well into commercial fiction |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4422
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:23 pm: |
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Bottom line, Morrison's books are best-sellers, so to some degree they are commercial. And it would've been more accurate for me to have related formulaic writing to "pop" fiction rather than commercial. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1341
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:34 pm: |
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all fiction is formulaic-- drama, conflict,resolution-- in it's most basic form.
protagonist wants something (plot)
protagonist has obstacles preventing the obtaining of that something (conflict--may be internal struggles--more conflict--or otherwise)
Protagonist resolves conflict and and story ends (resolution)
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4423
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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Expermimental fiction is not formulaic. And many writers take license when it comes to adhering to these prosaic parameters. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1342
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:40 pm: |
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have to admit, Ive not heard of "experimental fiction" will have to research that... |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 289
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 08:29 pm: |
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Just keep submitting and submitting. I get rejections all the time but here and there, an accceptance. William Saroyan was rejected 7,000 times before he got his first acceptance. |
Always_lurking
Regular Poster
Username: Always_lurking
Post Number: 35
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:25 am: |
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I read your blog and enjoyed it. Some feedback is better than no feedback. It is always your options to take it or leave it. |
Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 01:00 am: |
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In a nutshell, be yourself. While a lot of publishers do look for writers that fit inside the tried and proven formula, there are publishers like myself who prefer writers who take risks with their writing. I am writing my first non-fiction book now and trust me, there is nothing on the market remotely like it. Does that make me think it will not do well? Absolutely not! Just like when I did The Sex Chronicles and most people assumed it would scare people and flop, the exact opposite happened. There is nothing wrong with being a trendsetter. You may have to struggle a little bit longer to find a publisher or self-publish but, in the end, you will be delighted that you did not let someone interfere with your creativity.
Blessings,
Zane |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4486
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 04:18 pm: |
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I hear ya. I've always felt this way but, unlike you, what I say carries no weight. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:58 am: |
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I have discovered that "experimental fiction" is something that has only been tried by a few people and is not a widely accepted form of writing--nor has it been added to the forms of writing mentioned in my previous post, by any scholar... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4540
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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I'll go with what a successful writer like Zane posted on this subject. I prefer mavericks to sheep. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1345
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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NOW you say Zane is successful,when it suits your purpose, but what did you say when she first came out? UNH HUNH!
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1346
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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and by the way EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion about what works--even Zane. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4543
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:54 pm: |
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I don't know? What did I say about Zane when she first came out??? As long as I have been familiar with her, I have acknowledged her success, and have even read and enjoyed a couple of her books. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4544
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 02:11 pm: |
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As I recall, I did have a problem with Sistah Soulja's writing in "The Coldest Winter" but not because it was innovative but because she talked about herself too much. But who can argue with her tremedous success?? |
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